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The Lead with Jake Tapper
House Committees Subpoena Pompeo For Ukraine Docs; Giuliani Named 31 Times In Complaint, Says He's The "Real Whistleblower"; House Dem: Barr And Giuliani Likely To Be Called To Testify; "This Life With Lisa Ling" Premiers Sunday At 10p ET/PT. Aired 4:30-5p ET
Aired September 27, 2019 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[16:31:05]
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: And we're back with breaking news in our politics lead in our special edition of "The Lead". The White House in crisis. Three House committees have just subpoenaed the Secretary of State Mike Pompeo demanding documents about President Trump, his lawyer Rudy Giuliani and their involvement with Ukraine as part of their impeachment investigation.
Joining me now is Democratic Congresswoman Madeleine Dean of Pennsylvania. She's on the House Judiciary Committee, that's one of the six committees working on the impeachment inquiry. So Congresswoman, you're committee is not one of the three demanding documents from Secretary of State Pompeo but I do wonder, you maybe heard Mike Shields complain and I've heard this from other Republicans which is, Nancy Pelosi hasn't done a full vote on there being in impeachment inquiry. She's trying to have her cake and eat it to, have the powers of the investigation while also not forcing members, especially people from vulnerable districts. What do you make of that? Does there need to be a full impeachment vote before the inquiry begins?
REP. MADELEINE DEAN (D), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: No, that's not required. So that's just a full statement that we can't do oversight and impeachment inquiry without full House vote, that's simply not the case. We are authorized. We have six committees of jurisdiction. And so you see intel taking the lead in particular on the Ukraine matter and of course judiciary and the other four are also working on it. So it's just not true.
TAPPER: And is there any sort of resolution on the time line? We've heard that some people want to have -- well we have subpoenas also being -- already being issued today, so we know that it's starting now. But we've heard that some members in the House Intelligence Committee might be beckoned back as soon as next week even though there's a break for a couple weeks --
DEAN: Yes.
TAPPER: -- that there's a hope that there will be a vote by Thanksgiving perhaps or by end of the year at the latest, is that right?
DEAN: Well certainly I'm not going to be controlling the time line as a freshman member on judiciary, but what I want to say is that you do see the speed with which things are moving forward. And what that really represents is the gravity of the moment. I hope all America recognizes that as a result of this courageous whistleblower, we have seen extraordinary grievous wrong by a President in a systemic way over the course of time to try to blackmail a leader of another country, a democracy suffering from the oppression and invasion by Russia. So, I think -- I hope everybody gets that this is a very somber, very sober time, but also at the same time we must do this job well and as expeditiously as we possibly can to get as much of the facts before the American people quickly.
TAPPER: Are you worried at all? You come from a safe Democratic district, Montgomery County, Pennsylvania, plus seven Democratic, but you have colleagues, freshmen colleagues, Conor Lamb, Chrissy Houlahan and people who are not from districts that are necessarily safe Democratic seats. Are you worried at all that there could be some blow back that this could rally President Trump supporters, this could alienate independent or swing voters, this might send a message to voters that you're not focused on health care, and the economy, and education, but you're focused on getting President Trump. Those are concerns I've heard from some Democrats. Do you share them?
DEAN: As I said, I think this is such a grave time and a sober historic time. I don't see it as try to get Donald Trump. I care deeply that all of my terrific colleagues come back, are reelected, they bring such beauty, and diversity, and depth of experience. But what you saw in the course of the last seven to 10 days is we now have all but I think 10 Democrats in favor of impeachment inquiry. So I certainly want those in more difficult seats to come forward and to be a part of this team. I feel great unity of our caucus, but this is not a political decision for any of us frankly. This is actually a decision about upholding the rule of law, protecting our constitution, and standing up to a President that is actually abusing his office, using it for personal political gain in a shake down of a foreign leader.
TAPPER: You're on the Judiciary Committee.
DEAN: Yes.
TAPPER: And I believe at the end of the day after all the committees had their hearings and inquiries, it will be up to your committee and to your Chairman Jerry Nadler --
[16:35:02]
DEAN: Yes.
TAPPER: -- to vote on what to recommend in terms of articles of impeachment, if in fact you do reach that conclusion.
DEAN: Yes.
TAPPER: Before you reach that conclusion, what do you want to know? What information do you not have? Who do you want to hear from?
DEAN: Well, we're going to tie up whatever loose ends we can. You know we're in court in order to get McGahn and others to come forward. But I have to admit --
TAPPER: That's on other stuff, right? That's the Mueller matter and the obstruction of justice charge as potential.
DEAN: And we were going to have an emoluments hearing last Monday but we canceled -- the session was canceled for the very important funeral of Rep. Clyburn's wife Ms. Emily. So I think what judiciary, I know from meetings with judiciary, we will continue to do our work. We are drafting articles of impeachment. Other committees will offer to judiciary articles of impeachment. And so -- But the focus right now is to get as much of the Ukraine matter in front of us, evidence, facts as we possibly can.
I want to commend the whistle-blower. I'm sure you read the complaint. It's one of the most well written complaints I've ever seen, and people who are much more steeped in this than I note the thoroughness, the lack of editorializing, the factualness of it and basing it in the statute, in the whistleblower statute. So, I look forward to intel getting as much as they possibly can from the whistleblower and the supporting folks that are part of that complaint. But it absolutely corroborates what the President has admitted to, a phone call with the President.
TAPPER: So just -- because I want to -- because I'm confused a little bit here, just one last quick question if I can.
DEAN: Sure.
TAPPER: Nancy Pelosi, Speaker Pelosi has made it clear she wants the focus to be on this Ukraine situation. But you just talked about emoluments and you just talk about the Mueller report and obstruction of justice. Are those other issues going to be part of any article of impeachment, emoluments, obstruction of justice in the Mueller matter or are you focused on Ukraine?
DEAN: We're focused on Ukraine but I don't think that will be it alone. I think one of the other most likely articles of impeachment will be the one that we saw that was Article III in the Nixon era impeachment, and that's obstruction of Congress. So the repeated behavior by this administration to obstruct Congress, abuse of power, hiding the reports of that transcript of that phone call in a secret server. So abuse of power, obstruction of Congress, but certainly, sadly the Ukraine matter will be the most important.
TAPPER: All right. Democratic Congresswoman Madeleine Dean from the Great Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania's Fourth Congressional District, thanks so much for joining us. Appreciate it.
DEAN: Thanks for having me.
TAPPER: The President's personal attorney telling the world that he is the legitimate whistleblower. He is the hero. He's got the text messages to prove it. What is Rudy Giuliani talking about? Stay with us.
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[16:42:09]
TAPPER: And we're back with breaking news in our politics lead. Three House committees are subpoenaing Secretary of State Mike Pompeo for documents related to the President, to his lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, and their dealings with Ukraine. One House Intelligence Democrat says Giuliani will likely be called to testify before Congress. But as CNN's Tom Foreman reports, Giuliani claims he is the real hero of this saga.
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RUDY GIULIANI, PERSONAL LAWYER TO TRUMP: Let me tell you the facts. They called me --
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Rudy Giuliani is fighting back.
GIULIANI: Well I wasn't operating on my own.
FOREMAN (voice-over): Insisting his talks with Ukrainian officials were proper, important, and encouraged by the U.S. State Department.
GIULIANI: In fact, I'm a legitimate whistleblower.
FOREMAN (voice-over): So why is President Trump's personal lawyer so worked up? It comes in the wake of news about the now infamous call between Trump and the Ukrainian President Zelensky. In that call, Giuliani's name comes up repeatedly as Trump asks for foreign help investigating Democrat Joe Biden. "Rudy very much knows what's happening," Trump says. "If you could speak to him, that would be great."
That has raised accusations Giuliani was acting as an improper agent of the State Department, arranging a political hit job from afar in the name of official business. Giuliani says no way. He was helping investigate corruption and he says he has a paper trail that proves it, including this text message from a State Department official arranging a meeting.
GIULIANI: I went to meet Mr. Zelensky's aide at the request of the State Department, 15 memos make that clear.
FOREMAN (voice-over): The State Department says, "Mr. Giuliani is a private citizen and acts in a personal capacity as a lawyer for President Trump. He does not speak on behalf of the U.S. government. But he has spoken for Trump many times.
GIULIANI: What you just said is totally erroneous. It's not a crime.
FOREMAN (voice-over): Attacking his foes, dismissing his critics.
GIULIANI: It depends on where it came from. He didn't obstruct. FOREMAN (voice-over): The President calls him a loyal ally.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Rudy is a very straight shooter.
FOREMAN (voice-over): His critics called him something else.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is the political henchman for the President.
FOREMAN (voice-over): And Giuliani is clearly hedging his bets against another potential title he could be saddled with if the Ukraine affair gets much messier, fall guy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOREMAN: For now, Giuliani is pledging to defend himself against all accusations as vigorously as he has defended Donald Trump. Jake?
TAPPER: All right. Tom Foreman, thanks so much. Could Rudy Giuliani be doing more damage to President Trump than helping him? We'll discuss next. Stay with us.
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[16:45:00]
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: And we're back with our special coverage of THE LEAD: The White House in Crisis. We're back now with more on the breaking news in our "POLITICS LEAD." Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has been subpoenaed for documents by three House committees. Could Rudy Giuliani the next? Let's chew over all this in here. Let me start with you.
Congressman Mike Quigley, he sits on the Intelligence Committee says he wants Giuliani to testify because "he doesn't know what he shouldn't say."
NAYYERA HAQ, FORMER SENIOR DIRECTOR, OBAMA WHITE HOUSE: Loose lips sink ships. That is a famous national security saying. And Rudy is on T.V. all the time really testing out messaging and throwing spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks. And I think ultimately, it just going to come back to bite them.
TAPPER: And Mike, in an interview with Politico ago today, Giuliani says -- he really sets a bar for himself. He gives an interview, gives a crazy quote, and then the next day tries to give a crazier one. Today he says, I'm the real whistleblower. If I get killed now, you won't get the rest of the story.
He then insisted he should be entitled to the same whistleblower protections that the other whistleblower is getting, the one who actually went through the proper channels.
[16:50:21]
MIKE SHIELDS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, look, I don't -- I don't understand that quote. But to the point of what the Democrats are saying, we want to subpoena him because we think he'll be a bad witness is essentially what they're saying. He doesn't know what he shouldn't say. That speech --
TAPPER: I want to know what you mean by bad witness. I mean, what --
SHIELDS: We'll they're saying, we want to subpoena him and have him talk because we think we can play gotcha which is -- it shows how political this entire thing is. And the Democrats have really put themselves in such a tough position because everything they've done looks political. Shoot first, ask questions later.
They've been trying to impeach the president for two years. Now, they've got something they think they can really get them on and people are sort of like, I don't believe this.
TAPPER: What do you think of Rudy, a liability or asset for the president?
NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, he has pretty much been a liability all long. I mean, if you think about the whole issue with the president paying off Stormy Daniels, he kind of would say things on T.V., I think the president is in trouble. The President sort of escaped the Stormy Daniels, whatever, sort of maligning around that.
So I don't think he's been a good force for this president but he's so much like the president. I mean, they are two peas in a pod. I mean, they were conspiracy theorists. They're self-aggrandizing. He believes he's the hero, Rudy Giuliani does, and he's the real whistleblower. So I think, you know, the president can't really quit Rudy Giuliani.
TAPPER: How was Rudy perceived by White House officials? Because I would think he causes to them headaches.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and he has caused a lot of headaches. The problem is that he has Trump's blessing for so many of the things that he does, but then it's the other people who have to deal with the fallout from what Rudy Giuliani says, and Mike Pompeo is the perfect example of this.
You know, that's going to be a point of scrutiny and focus over the next several weeks as we're going through this process of what exactly their communications were between the two of them or other State Department officials. How much of that Mike Pompeo gave his blessing to.
The problem with Rudy is that he's not someone who works the White House. The President can't just fire him. He's his personal attorney. He's kind of been in this, you know, not clear position for so long. But he drives people in the White House crazy.
TAPPER: All right, more in our breaking news coming up. Still ahead, the ranking member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Senator Bob Menendez live on CNN. Stay with us. [16:55:00]
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TAPPER: Finally, from us in our "POP CULTURE LEAD," the rise of online porn. It's easily accessible for people of all ages. And the CNN series "THIS IS LIFE" takes a look at how this is leading to a warped perception of sex and intimacy especially among young people.
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LISA LING, CNN HOST: Porn addiction isn't a medically recognized disease, but hundreds of thousands of people claim it is real and are turning to sites like NoFap.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have people from every continent across the planet. It impacts Christians, atheist, Muslims, Republicans, Democrats. If you're a human being, and you have access to the internet, you can absolutely get addicted to porn.
LING: Though Alex is emphatic that this can happen to anyone, he tells me that 95 percent of NoFap users are men.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It does happen to young men more often than any other group I would say. I think the most vulnerable demographic is males between the ages of eight to 14.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Joining me now is the host of "THIS IS LIFE" Lisa Ling. Lisa, you talked to people who say they're addicted. How much damage do they say this is done to their lives?
LING: Well, you mentioned in the intro, Jake, I mean, these young men are growing up with unrealistic expectations of what sex and even relationships are supposed to be like. They are looking at the opposite sex or even the same sex in an objectifying way. They're developing dysfunctions both erectile dysfunction and even harming themselves in some cases.
And really look, porn has always been around and online porn has been around for a long time. But because so many kids now have access to devices in their possession at all times, there's just such an abundance of porn that's available to them.
And even if you have the most stringent filters on your phone, kids are smart, they can bypass it. And if you put a couple of words into Google, not even particularly lascivious words, and you click on images, it's astounding what kids are able to see. And if you haven't had that conversation with your kid, it's -- it is -- to say it's overwhelming would be to grossly understate how scary it can be.
TAPPER: If it's spanning such a wide range of people this problem with porn, how are they getting help to cope?
LING: Well, it hasn't been medically designated an addiction so there are Web sites like NoFap that we just -- we just showed you where hundreds of thousands of people are going and finding community with each other and they are they're having open discussions about this and there are sex therapist. I mean if you talk to most pediatricians, they'll tell you they're dealing with this issue.
TAPPER: All right, Lisa Ling, thank you so much. Be sure to tune in to all-new season of "THIS IS LIFE" with Lisa Ling. It premieres this Sunday at 10.00 p.m. only on CNN. But before you watch that, be sure to tune in to the Sunday's morning for State of the Union. My guests will include Congressman Hakeem Jeffries, Republican member of the House Judiciary Committee Congressman Jim Jordan, and Democratic presidential candidate Senator Cory Booker.
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