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The Lead with Jake Tapper

President Trump Doubles Down on Lynching Comparison; Why Was Trump Blocking Ukraine Aid?. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired October 25, 2019 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:02]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: So, stay tuned.

I'm Brooke Baldwin. Hope you have wonderful weekends.

But stay right here. "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" starts right now.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: The president may not be throwing out the first pitch at Nats Park, but he is currently throwing out a whole lot of other stuff.

THE LEAD starts right now.

A current White House official, one who was on the now infamous July 25th phone call with the president of Ukraine, now plans to corroborate much of Bill Taylor's damning deposition, according to sources, as John Bolton may also get his chance behind closed doors.

It's a favorite spot for Trump associates and foreign leaders, but now Eric Trump says the Trump Organization ma by willing to unload the Trump Hotel in D.C. -- the reason why ahead.

Plus: As Joe Biden faces questions over allowing his son Hunter to serve on the board of a foreign company while he was in office, Biden is now taking shots at a different Trump relative and his job.

Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We begin today with the politics lead and the president continuing to try to lie his way out of the Ukraine scandal, as sources tell CNN that a current White House National Security Council official will back up much of the damning testimony from Bill Taylor, the top diplomat in Ukraine, about Ukraine being pushed to investigate the Bidens.

White House sources have told CNN the president has a communications problem regarding this scandal. But, truly, this isn't really a communications problem. It is a facts problem. And the facts are bad for the president.

So he seems to be trying to change them by lying and saying, for instance, that the entire impeachment inquiry is about one thing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's one conversation that I had with the president of Ukraine that was perfect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: It is not just about the phone call.

The allegations that President Trump held up military aid to Ukraine and other things Ukraine wanted in exchange for opening investigations that would benefit him politically, including into the Bidens, they are not just based on -- off that one phone call.

They are based on testimony that there was an entire campaign that involved multiple administration officials and the president's lawyer Rudy Giuliani having multiple conversations with officials in the Ukrainian government.

Months before the July 25 call, for example, Ukrainian President Zelensky and his team were discussing the pressure they were already feeling from the Trump administration to open these investigations, a source tells CNN.

As for the president's repeated claims that the call was -- quote -- "perfect," well, that's a judgment call, but multiple Republicans have conceded it was not only imperfect, it was at the very least inappropriate.

The president tried to even lie that the Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell, agreed that the call was perfect and then told him that, but here's what McConnell had to say about that:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: The president said that you told him that his phone call with the Ukraine president was perfect and innocent. Do you believe that the president has handled this Ukrainian situation perfectly?

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): We have not had any conversations on that subject.

QUESTION: So he was lying about that?

(LAUGHTER)

MCCONNELL: You will have to ask him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: As CNN's Alex Marquardt now reports for us, there are more depositions to come, including possibly from the president's former National Security Adviser John Bolton, who, according to other witnesses, had serious concerns about this rogue Trump White House policy regarding Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): One of the biggest names at the center of the impeachment inquiry, John Bolton, has so far been mysteriously quiet. That may soon change.

A source tells CNN that lawyers for President Trump's former national security adviser are in talks with the three committees leading the inquiry about being deposed.

TRUMP: He made some very big mistakes.

MARQUARDT: Bolton was fired last month, the president mocking him as a tough guy. Sources tell CNN that a former top deputy of Bolton's testified that Bolton called the president's personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani a hand grenade who going to blow everybody up.

REP. STEPHEN LYNCH (D-MA): It corroborates a lot of the relevant information that we had previously about Mayor Giuliani freelancing.

MARQUARDT: The inquiry is also expected to be ratcheted up next week with the testimony of Tim Morrison, the White House's senior official for Ukraine, who was on the infamous July 25 call between President Trump and Ukrainian President Zelensky in which Trump asked for a favor and brought up the 2016 election and the Bidens.

DOUG HEYE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: If you have somebody directly saying, I was on the call, this is what happened ,that's direct evidence that really causes problems politically and obviously legally.

MARQUARDT: Morrison, who is the first person on that call to testify, is expected to confirm key elements of the testimony of the top U.S. diplomat in Ukraine, Bill Taylor, who said on Tuesday that Morrison told him that President Trump did insist that President Zelensky go to a microphone and say he is opening investigations of Biden and 2016 election interference.

[16:05:00]

This was as almost $400 million in military aid for Ukraine was being held up for months. Sources now telling CNN it wasn't unfrozen until September 11, after Trump received pressure from Ohio Senator Rob Portman during a phone call, a day after John Bolton abruptly resigned and two days after U.S. ambassador to the European Union, Gordon Sondland, told President Trump that concerns were being raised that his actions amounted to a quid pro quo.

TRUMP: There was no quid pro quo at all.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUARDT: ... to release that money to Ukraine wasn't only from Senator Portman.

There was a deadline. By the end of September, the funds had to be given to Ukraine, or they would get nothing at all. So lawmakers from both parties were urging the president to send the aid, as was Vice President Mike Pence.

So, finally, Jake, on that call, the president agreed, but not before grumbling that the U.S. was getting a bad deal -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Alex Marquardt starting us off.

Let's chew over all this.

Toluse, let me start with you.

According to Bill Taylor's testimony from earlier this week, Tim Morrison, the White House official on the National Security Council, said he had a -- quote -- "sinking feeling" about a conversation in which President Trump insisted that the Ukrainian president needed to go to a microphone and publicly say he's opening these investigations, including into the Bidens.

So this would be theoretically another person at least backing up a key part of this testimony.

TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Yes, this could be pretty damaging testimony for the White House, having someone who is a current White House official who's willing to back up what Taylor said.

We have had some Republicans say Taylor was secondhand information, he didn't hear these conversations directly. This could be someone who was directly involved, was directly in the White House who was hired by the president. So you can't say this is a member of the deep state or someone who is an opponent of the president.

TAPPER: Well, sure you could.

OLORUNNIPA: Well, the president may still do that.

But the fact that he's still working right there in the White House, and he's defying the White House's call for this whole impeachment process to be deemed illegitimate, it could really damage the White House if he's backing up what Taylor said.

You have to remember that Taylor's testimony was pretty damaging. And if you have multiple people backing it up, it starts to stack up the evidence against the president.

TAPPER: Yes.

DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: But Taylor's testimony is based on Morrison calling Taylor.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: It was based on a few people, Sondland, Volker, Morrison, yes.

URBAN: But the only person who was on the phone -- and Toluse is exactly correct -- Morrison is going to be very important to hear he says.

CNN is reporting, right, that two sources say that Morrison is going to say he didn't see anything wrong with what happened on the phone call, that he told Taylor he didn't see anything wrong with it. So that's what is going to be really interesting to see what he actually testifies when he gets up there.

TAPPER: And does that matter, Nayyera, because, I mean, obviously Morrison's testimony is important. Does his opinion on this matter? Presumably, it would.

NAYYERA HAQ, FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON: Right.

The just kidding defense or oh, no big deal, ignorance is not a defense in the eyes of the law. If it's wrong, it's wrong. And if it's about a quid pro quo, meaning that the United States is holding up something that is a vital national security interest to itself and another country for a presidential personal favor, that is a problem.

Usually, in diplomacy and national security, you're using these tools as leverage to get behavior from another country that is about advancing national security, not about personal political interests.

TAPPER: And we also have on deck a source telling CNN that Trump's former top Russia adviser said in her deposition that John Bolton, then the national security adviser, told her to tip off, to tell the White House lawyers about the activities of Giuliani and others calling, Giuliani a hand grenade who was going to blow everybody up.

And now we know that Giuliani -- I'm sorry -- that Bolton's lawyers are talking to the House Democrats about a deposition potentially.

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Yes.

And John Bolton, of course, comes up also in Bill Taylor's testimony too, is really in the middle of a lot of these conversations that are happening. You mentioned Fiona Hill also, him raising concerns about this, these sort of different channels of going about doing business with the Ukrainians.

So we will see. I mean, John Bolton obviously left the White House under not so great circumstances.

TAPPER: And we weren't really sure what the circumstances were either.

(CROSSTALK)

HENDERSON: Exactly.

I mean, some of them seemed to be about invitations to the Taliban to Camp David, him being upset about that. But the president didn't have very good things to say about him oftentimes while he was in the White House, and then on his way out.

And, of course, Bolton eventually said something like, oh, you're going to hear from me at some point. And this is one of those instances where we will hear from him. We will see what he says.

I think it is not good that all of these people are cooperating. You have got Tim Morrison obviously defying the White House's strategy to just shut this whole thing down and paint it as illegitimate, and Bolton too, who is a respected Republican.

Hard to say that he's deep state. Hard to say that he is against the interests of what is usually American foreign policy.

HAQ: The other interesting thing about Bolton, he is not a Trump loyalists, even though he worked in the White House.

He clearly was there because he had an ideology that he's been committed to, whether it's regime change in Iran, or very hard-line hawkish policy. So if what Trump was doing was undermining what he, Bolton, would be good for national security, he's more likely to spill the beans.

[16:10:00]

TAPPER: Do you -- what do you think of the White House saying that they have a communications problem?

I mean, it seems to me that it's more of a facts problem than a communications problem.

URBAN: So, look, impeachment, we all know, is ultimately a political undertaking, right?

So that's what this is about. This isn't about the facts. This is about how people in America perceive the facts, right, because the House is going to have to vote up and down on articles of impeachment, and then it's going to go to the Senate, and they're going to vote whether to remove the president or not.

And so unless there's a groundswell of support behind the facts, members of the House won't vote for articles of impeachment. They will not they will not move so.

And so now you -- you see these depositions being scheduled in the House for the second week of November. Speaker Pelosi said this was going to all be wrapped up by Thanksgiving.

TAPPER: It doesn't look like anymore.

URBAN: It doesn't look like it's even going to get close to that.

And so when you start talking about then you're going to be in the next year, an election year? You go out and read -- look at the swing state -- some of these polls done in swing states, some of the focus groups, and voters are saying, hey, there's an election coming up.

Let's let the polls take care of this. Let's let the Congress focus on what they're doing. That message resonates very, very well. It's going to be a problem for Democrats.

TAPPER: The polling nationally generally supportive of impeachment, the polling in the battleground states the exact opposite.

Everyone, stick around.

Just moments ago, President Trump comparing the impeachment agree to the unfairness in the criminal justice system. He said this at a historically black college.

Plus, the anonymous senior Trump administration official has receipts, the author says, notes from conversations that the author wants to use to expose President Trump in his own words, but is there anything that could shock us at this point?

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:16:06]

TAPPER: We have some breaking news for you now. President Trump just moments ago at the historically black Benedict College seemingly compared the impeachment inquiry to the unfair treatment in the criminal justice system.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We make tremendous strides to deliver greater economic promise to our citizens. We'll never let up on our efforts to ensure that our justice system is fair for every single American.

And I have my own experience. You know that. You see what is going on with the witch hunt. It is a terrible thing that is going on in our country. No crimes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: You might remember a few days ago, President Trump tweeted, quote, all Republicans must remember what they are witnessing here regarding himself. A lynching.

CNN's Abby Phillip is at the White House for us.

And, Abby, we know some Republicans have urged the president to focus on governing but he keeps injecting the impeachment inquiry into day- to-day comments, day-to-day events, including times that he seems to be suggesting that he is akin to the victims of the civil rights horrors of this country.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: And, in fact, this visit was supposed to be about the president reaching out to African- American voters, talking about his championing of the First Step Act to rectify the ways in which the criminal justice system unfairly targets African-Americans, but he compared that history to himself and what he's facing.

He says that these investigations are an investigation in search of a crime, and it underscores the challenge for Republicans as they continue to urge the president to focus on governing, even at the same time that the White House is struggling to come up with a plan to deal with the ongoing impeachment probe on Capitol Hill.

But the president also has yet another problem and that is an anonymous senior official in his own government who is coming out with a tell-all book featuring the president's own words.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm not a fan of Never Trumpers and I never will be.

PHILLIP (voice-over): As President Trump rails against the Never Trump Republicans in a so-called deep state, an anonymous senior Trump official plans to use the president's own words against him, in an explosive new tell-all book out next month. The author whose identity still hasn't been revealed will reportedly rely on extensive notes from meetings and conversations with Trump, writing on the book's back cover that there is no better witness to his character than his own words, and no better evidence of the danger he poses than his own conduct.

All this coming as the White House continues to flounder without a plan for dealing with the impeachment inquiry unfolding on Capitol Hill. Sources telling CNN aides continue to feud over whether there should be a war room and who would lead it.

TRUMP: Here's the thing, I don't have teams, everyone talks about teams. I'm the team. I did nothing wrong.

PHILLIP: But three sources told CNN that Trump's son-in-law and senior adviser Jared Kushner is pushing to bring in former Treasury Department aide Tony Sayegh to lead the efforts which includes personally attacking Democrats conducting the impeachment probe.

TRUMP: I know people are still in a basement, in a secure room in the basement, trying to make us look as bad as possible. But that's not working too well.

PHILLIP: And going after the senior diplomatic officials who have testified like Ukraine Ambassador Bill Taylor whose testimony was described by one lawmaker as damning.

TRUMP: Here is the problem. He's a Never Trumper and his lawyer is a Never Trumper.

PHILLIP: But there is no evidence that Taylor, a Vietnam veteran who has served presidents in both parties, actually is a never Trumper. Trump now blaming his Secretary of State Mike Pompeo who recruited Taylor to serve in Ukraine.

TRUMP: Hey, everybody makes mistakes. Mike Pompeo, everybody makes mistakes.

(END VIDEOTAPE) PHILLIP: There was talk of a war room being set up back when the White House was trying to deal with the Mueller probe.

[16:20:01]

But at that time, they also decided against creating one. Instead, White House aides and even the president's campaign took their cues from President Trump's Twitter feed. That seems to be happening yet again -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Abby Phillip, thanks so much.

Nia-Malika Henderson, let me start with you. I was not expecting President Trump to bring up impeachment during this event where he was going to be talking about criminal justice reform --

HENDERSON: Right.

TAPPER: -- and the First Step Act. He was getting a lot of kudos for this bipartisan act and one of the few truly bipartisan achievements of his presidency and he seemed to kind of step in it a little.

HENDERSON: Yes, and it is not surprising in that way, right? The president is obsessed with an impeachment. Folks want him to keep on message and focus on the good things that his administration has done, he is there on HSBU in Columbia, South Carolina, likening himself apparently to African-Americans who are often the victims of criminal justice system, sort of the inequities in the criminal justice system, something we've seen him do before, likening him to a lynching victim which again is an inappropriate linkage because what we know about what happened with lynching victims, right? Denied justice and hung from trees for speaking to a white woman or anything like that.

And so, listen, this is what Donald Trump does. I think any speech that he gives in front of an audience like this, he's going to mention impeachment, he's going to mention the sense that he feels like he's the victim of an unjust process. So, I think that's what we're going to get.

I don't think -- listen, I don't understand why when folks go before African-American communities, it always has to be about criminal justice reform. That's just sort of a pet peeve. I think African- Americans care more about education and health care. Certainly they care about criminal justice as well, but there are a wide range of issues you can talk about with African-Americans.

TAPPER: Yes. And, Toluse, one of the other things that the president said that was interesting is he seemed to suggest that under a Democratic president, they would never do this to a Democratic president, he said. They would never go after and try to impeach a Democratic president. Well, I mean, it was just a few years ago that Bill Clinton was impeached.

OLORUNNIPA: Well, yes. I mean, you've heard this from the president. He doesn't feel aggrieved by this process, he said. This should never happen to another president again and feels like he's under investigation since he walked into the Oval office on January 20th, 2017.

So, he's making that message and it worked with his base because they also feel aggrieved and attacked in some ways. So, the president made a decision he's going to have a base first play, and some cases, he goes outside of his base like today where he talked about criminal justice reform in front of a historically black college. But he still reverted to this aggrieved messaging talking about the witch hunt, talking about people who are attacking him and he thinks that works for him and in some ways it does work.

URBAN: It was a headline on "The Post", by the way, on the day of the inaugural, like let the impeachment begin, right? I mean, they did -- it was a big --

TAPPER: "The Washington Post"?

URBAN: Yes, "The Washington Post" ran a big story on it on the day of inauguration.

TAPPER: And the president said --

URBAN: He does have -- he does have some grounds to feel aggrieved, I would say.

TAPPER: Well, every president has grounds to feel aggrieved, I would say. But, David, let me ask you, the president said, here's the thing, everyone keeps about teams -- I don't have teams. I'm the team -- in terms of whether or not he should have a team to combat the messaging.

It seems like you disagree with that. You should have --

URBAN: So, look, I think the president is -- as Nia said, he had a great message here today. He's done a great deal of work here and in a bipartisan fashion, big bipartisan victory getting this First Step Act done and doing good for a lot of people and you kind of step on the message, right?

TAPPER: Yes.

URBAN: So I do agree. I think there should be, you know, a better coordination in the message but the president messenger number one like he's the decider number one, Bush (ph) was, and he's the messenger.

TAPPER: Yes.

Nayyera, I want to ask you about this new book from the senior administration official from the Trump administration who wrote that "New York Times" op-ed a year ago. On the back of the book, "Axios" reported this first but we're following it up and confirming, that on the back of the book, it says, quote: You will hear a great deal from Donald Trump directly for there is no better witness to his character than his own words and no better evidence of the danger he poses than his own conduct. "Axios" reporting that the Trump administration official was a

frequent participant in meetings and accounts specific conversations and have access to internal notes. What do you think?

HAQ: Well, I'm sure there's a lot of people who have access to conversations. That's part of working in the White House. You have access to conversations.

I think we would feel better if there was a name to this book and --

TAPPER: To the author you mean.

HAQ: Right. To the author and who anonymous was done and in the way that journalist work with anonymous sources, right, where it's fact- checked, it's vetted. There's, you know, two or three people who also have to verify the facts. So, I think this is going to read more like a personal memoir and God bless whoever it is, it's a great play for money.

URBAN: The title should be cowardice, not anonymous.

TAPPER: All right. Everyone, stick around. We got more to talk about.

He has signed to a resolution in the Senate condemning the way that the impeachment inquiry is happening. Republican Senator John Kennedy from Louisiana joins me live next.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:29:48]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: This was a perfect conversation. But this was a perfect conversation with the president of Ukraine. I had a perfect conversation with the president of Ukraine. Perfect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: President Trump today attempting to defend his call with Ukrainian President Zelensky, using his go-to description of the conversation, perfect.

Joining me to talk about this and more, Republican senator from Louisiana, John Kennedy.

Senator Kennedy, thanks for joining us as always. We appreciate it.

So, I want to dive right in. Here are the facts that we know. We know that the president asked the Ukrainian president to investigate Joe and Hunter Biden.

[16:30:00]