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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Interview With Rep. Will Hurd (R-TX); Russia Hacks Burisma; Democrats Set to Debate. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired January 14, 2020 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:30:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Maybe it came out wrong. Is that possible?

MARY KATHARINE HAM, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I am willing to believe a lot of very bad things about Bernie Sanders.

(LAUGHTER)

HAM: I actually -- it doesn't ring true to me that he would genuinely believe that a woman could not run and win as president.

He got clobbered by Hillary last time around. So he's experienced...

(CROSSTALK)

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: But he doesn't seem to know that yet.

HAM: But -- like, so that doesn't ring exactly true to me.

And I think he likely could have been handicapping the race in a very clumsy way.

The other thing is, like, these folks are going to fight each other. It's like going on "The Bachelorette' and expecting to find friends. Like, that's not what they're doing here. They're looking for votes. They're competing against each other.

And he should make the point, frankly, like, look, there were two people in the room. And my colleague Senator Warren has a history of stretching the truth. And one of her largest lies, her actual DNA, contradicts her.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: So, another issue.

HAM: Ooh, low blow, except she pretended to be a Native American.

FINNEY: Wait

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Go ahead. FINNEY: Just very quickly. Here's the thing, though.

It's not just about what may or may not have been said in this conversation. Bernie came into this race with a bit of a legacy. The Bernie bros were known to have been horrible to women online.

I know plenty of women who would say things like -- there were secret groups of women who didn't want to have to deal with the Bernie bros. So they didn't want to engage online.

And the Bernie bros, again, they're pretty obnoxious, and they're very sexist and misogynist. So part of it is, it's part of the reason why he endorsed Cenk Uygur, and then had to pull that back because of those comments.

I mean, he did come in with an impression and a lot of women still feeling pretty raw from 2016 about the fact that he didn't stand up for Hillary or have her back or campaign for her, I think, as vigorously as he could have.

But, also, he never really took on the Bernie bros and said, let's tame -- let's calm down a bit

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: No, no, that's not true.

I interviewed him and I did ask him about the Bernie bros. And he said, nobody should be saying things like that. Nobody should be doing things like that.

(CROSSTALK)

FINNEY: That is not the same thing, Jake.

That is not the same thing as saying, you should not be threatening people, you should not be...

(CROSSTALK)

HILARY ROSEN, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: When it comes up, he mostly ignores it.

But you're right. When confronted by a respected journalist, he says the right thing.

But I do -- look, I think it's just that Bernie generally -- and I'm going to -- doesn't -- he thinks of this as identity politics. It's the same way he doesn't engage people of color. He doesn't really engage women.

He doesn't think about the country that way.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: He thinks in terms of class. (CROSSTALK)

ROSEN: He thinks in terms of class, not in terms of other demographics.

And so I believe that he said that to Elizabeth Warren. But I also think that this is part of a larger problem that Elizabeth Warren is struggling with, that Amy Klobuchar is struggling with, that Democratic women are struggling with.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: So, we're going to...

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: ... panel.

We're just going to take a quick break. We're coming back, same conversation. So, stay with us.

Coming up, he will be on stage tonight with five other Democrats, but Joe Biden may be focused on someone else.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:37:08]

TAPPER: Continuing with our 2020 lead, hours before he takes center stage at Drake University at tonight's CNN/"Des Moines Register" debate, former Vice President's Joe Biden super PAC released a new ad called "Consequences."

And Biden in the ad is letting President Trump do the talking.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NARRATOR: Donald Trump has made it clear.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Joe Biden.

Biden. Biden. Biden. Biden. Biden. And Biden.

NARRATOR: He's got Joe Biden on his mind, because Trump knows Biden will beat him in Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin, the states we need to take back the presidency.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Let's chew over all this.

What do you think, Mary Katharine? Good ad?

HAM: I think that is his most solid argument: I'm a basically plausible guy who and basically like, and, yes, I fumble up my words sometimes, but I can beat Trump in these specific states where we have to beat him.

That is a fairly good argument and one that is at the top of Democrats' minds.

ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And the reality is, if your message ain't broke, don't fix it. That's been his message from the very beginning: I am the candidate of all of these people on the stage that has the credentials to take on Donald Trump.

And he's leading in a lot of the national polls, specifically further down the primary and caucus calendar. And that is strong.

So if this is a message that has worked for him up until now, there's no reason to change it.

TAPPER: There is, of course, the question of should he be talking about something other than electability? Electability, everybody in the United States is now a pundit, in some other countries as well, I think, but should he be talking about how he is the best on the economy, best on health care?

What do you think?

ROSEN: Well, two things.

First, I don't think he talks about electability. I think it's a different message to actually say, vote for me and I will calm this country the F down. That's kind of his message. It's not really, I'm the most electable. It's that I'm the safest in a way.

And I do think that this week with Iran bodes well for him. It'll be interesting to see how much of that comes up tonight, because people do see him as an experienced commander in chief.

TAPPER: So let's talk about that, because the Democratic candidates have used the background of tensions with Iran to debate foreign policy.

Biden's been embracing that. Bernie Sanders has stepped up his critiques of Joe Biden's vote in support of the Iraq War, the Sanders campaign continuing that on Twitter today, sharing this tweet -- quote -- "When you look at my record vs. Joe Biden's record" -- this is Sanders talking -- "I just don't think that Biden's record is going to bring forth the energy that we need to defeat Trump."

There's also the fact that Biden advised President Obama not to go ahead with the Osama bin Laden raid. And you have this quote from former Defense Secretary Gates that Joe Biden has been wrong about every major policy and foreign policy for his entire career.

I mean, this is an area of vulnerability for him, potentially.

FINNEY: Although I think some people would also credit him, though, with his going all in on the counterterrorism strategy. I think a lot of people believe that was a good call.

And I think -- I remember back to the beginning of the Iraq War, when he talked about the idea of, let's not try to make all these people who don't actually agree and get along be one country.

[16:40:08]

He was one of the few people who had some ideas about, how do you let each of the different factions actually be their own entity?

But, most importantly, look, and this is the closing argument in some ways to -- particularly if you're a member of the Senate, before the Iowa caucuses start.

So what's -- I think there's two things you got to do tonight, right? One is, you got to be presidential, because if I'm going to go and I'm going to caucus, and I'm going to -- it is hard, it takes a long time. I got to be passionate that you are my person, you are the best person to lead this country, and that you can be the commander in chief, because no doubt, as Hilary was saying, we know, from the polling, people are still very afraid.

They don't agree with how President Trump has handled Iran. They're still very concerned about what's happening and what that impact is going to be. So they're going to be looking for, who can be a commander in chief? Who's going to be the person who can repair relationships around the world?

Who can calm some of this down, but who can be tough enough to take on Russia, to take on Iran, to take on China? And I think the conversation about the Iraq War, we know we're going to have that. But, ultimately, and even Bernie has to do this, what's the future? What's your vision? How do you move us forward is what people want to hear.

HAM: I think that's where Biden's opportunity is.

He said, oh, I'm the plausible guy. I check all the boxes. Moving on, how far are we going down this isolationist road, Bernie?

And Bernie will be happy to lay out his whole plan for pretty a far- out-there position on this, which I think will make even some Democratic primary voters concerned about his foreign policy positions.

TAPPER: On the other hand, there's indication that Senator Warren might bring up how they fought in the early aughts over the bankruptcy bill before Warren was even a senator, when she was a professor, and how Biden is in the pocket of corporations, corporate America, credit card companies, et cetera.

And that could be hurtful for him.

STEWART: Well, there are a couple things.

That will be certainly an attack that she will use. She loves to use -- the elites are the boogeymen. But he will certainly be attacked by Sanders with regard to his vote for the Iraq invasion.

Look, Bernie Sanders was right on that. Joe Biden was wrong on that. But we had the benefit of hindsight with that. But he can make the case, having been a vice president under Barack Obama, that he has the skill set and the mind-set in order to lead when it comes to the foreign policy stage.

But going into this, Karen is right. You have to make the case tonight to get people to commit to caucus. There are 1,600 caucuses in Iowa. You have to get people out there to commit to go vote for you.

And Bernie Sanders has the benefit of having the 2016 playbook. He's well ahead of the others and they need to make up some ground tonight.

TAPPER: Watch tonight's CNN/"Des Moines Register" presidential debate, in partnership, as I said, with "The Des Moines Register." It's tonight at 9:00 Eastern only on CNN.

Coming up, the Trump administration's new rationale for the strike that killed Iran's top general and how the reasoning looks to a former CIA officer -- that's next.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:47:06]

TAPPER: In our world lead, the Trump administration now pivoting away from its initial core defense of why it was necessary to kill Iranian General Qasem Soleimani.

Immediately after the strike, as you might recall, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo repeatedly pointed to the threat of an imminent attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE POMPEO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: If you're looking for imminence, you need to look no further than the days that led up to the strike.

It was imminent. This was an intelligence-based assessment.

There is no doubt that there were a series of imminent attacks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: In the last 24 hours, however, the administration seems to be reframing its argument around the idea of the strike being part of a larger strategy of deterrence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POMPEO: President Trump and those of us in his national security team are reestablishing deterrence, real deterrence against the Islamic Republic. WILLIAM BARR, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: It reestablished deterrence. It responded to attacks that had been already committed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Joining me now to discuss is Republican Congressman Will Hurd of Texas. He's a former CIA officer. He serves -- currently serves on the House Intelligence Committee.

Congressman, good to see you, as always.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: There's no dispute here among reasonable people. Soleimani was a horrible person. He had the blood of innocents on his hands. But doesn't it matter what the government gives as a justification for such a strike?

REP. WILL HURD (R-TX): I would agree with that. And using precise language is important. I don't know if deterrence and immediacy are that far away from a reason for doing the strike.

But I think it's important to use precise language, especially when it comes to really important and sensitive intelligence, for two reasons. One, if this intelligence source is ongoing, and it's so good that, if the bad guys get -- find out what that information was, they might be able to understand that source, and, as we say in the intelligence business, that source gets burned.

And so using precise language to protect your sources is ultimately important. And I believe a lot of folks would love to see this intelligence, know what was in this intelligence.

But I would agree with our Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Milley, when he said that that intelligence was clear in what was going to happen and the potential loss of -- loss of life.

And I would concur. I would concur with that initiative. But I think we can say that what happened to Qasem Soleimani, who, as the head of the largest terrorist organization, most financed, well-financed terrorist organization in the world, that that is deterrence.

And we know that the Army War College did a report on activities in Iraq since, I believe, it was after 2008 to about 2018 that, when there was consequences to Iranian behavior, they stopped doing negative behavior.

[16:50:05]

So, I think all these things can exist at one time.

TAPPER: Yes. Sure. I mean, the reason I ask is because President Trump tweeted that it doesn't matter whether the attacks were imminent.

And Congressman Justin Amash, former Republican, now independent, one of your colleagues, he wrote on Twitter -- quote -- "Contrary to President Trump's claim, it does matter whether there's an imminent threat. It matters under our Constitution. A president can't order any strikes, except pursuant to a congressional authorization, unless the strikes are emergency defensive responses to an imminent attack." Again, Soleimani was a horrible person.

HURD: Sure.

TAPPER: But don't you think the administration needs to prove an imminent threat, or be subject to congressional authorization?

HURD: Well, I -- I think, in this case, and -- and where some of the debates on this comes is whether Qasem Soleimani was a -- just a part of a foreign government, or was he the leader of a terrorist organization.

Qasem Soleimani, under Obama and also prior that, under President Bush, he individually was -- had a number of sanctions put on him. The IRGC Quds Force, which he ran, was designated as a foreign terrorist organization. And so was the broader IRGC.

TAPPER: Right.

HURD: And so you can't -- in my opinion, you cannot hide behind a uniform of your country to prevent you from being determined as a terrorist.

And so the attack on Qasem Soleimani, he was in Iraq, which is a hot battle zone. He's an identified belligerent within that war. And there was intelligence to suggest that there was going to potentially be a loss of American life and allies' lives.

TAPPER: All right, Congressman Will Hurd, Republican of Texas, thank you so much for your time, sir. Appreciate it, as always.

HURD: Thank you.

TAPPER: What may be strong evidence of Russia at it again, trying to interfere with yet another U.S. election.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:56:38]

TAPPER: President Trump wanted dirt on the Bidens. Now it appears so does Russia.

A cybersecurity firm, Area 1, says, just in the last few weeks, Russia hacked the Ukrainian gas company Burisma, the same company at the center of President Trump's impeachment, where Joe Biden's son Hunter used to serve on its board.

As Alex Marquardt now reports from us, now Speaker Pelosi wants to know, what do cybersecurity and intelligence officials in the administration know about this hack that has, according to Area 1, the exact hallmarks of Russia's 2016 election interference campaign?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): The playbook is familiar, but the target is new.

This time, Russian hackers accused of breaking into Burisma, the Ukrainian energy company that Joe Biden's son was on the board of, which has been at the center of the president's impeachment proceedings.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Burisma.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Burisma.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Burisma.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Burisma.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Burisma.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Burisma.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Burisma.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Burisma.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Bidens and Burisma.

MARQUARDT: According to Area 1, which is the research group that revealed the breach, the tactics used on Burisma late last year are practically identical to what the same group of Russian military hackers called the GRU used in 2016 to get into the DNC and Hillary Clinton's campaign.

OREN FALKOWITZ, CEO AND CO-FOUNDER, AREA 1 SECURITY: We're 100 percent confident that it's associated with the Russian GRU. The GRU executed what are known as credential harvesting phishing campaigns.

So these are attempts to steal usernames and passwords.

MARQUARDT: Fake Web sites were set up to lure Burisma employees into handing over their information, so the hackers could get inside. It worked.

But it's unclear what the Russians were looking for or what they got.

With the uproar around the Biden connection, and it all starting in early November, as the impeachment proceedings were heating up, signs point to the Russians looking for dirt on the Bidens, which the president is also accused of asking for.

FALKOWITZ: We expect these types of cyber-actors to continue on until they're successful and to accomplish their goal.

MARQUARDT: Hillary Clinton today tweeting that this new attack shows the Russians are back at it once again to benefit Donald Trump.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): It certainly looks like they're at it again, and with an eye towards helping this president.

MARQUARDT: So far, no word from the White House. Joe Biden's campaign responding in part: "Now we know that Vladimir Putin also sees Joe Biden as a threat. Any American president who had not repeatedly encouraged foreign interventions of this kind would immediately condemn this attack on the sovereignty of our elections."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUARDT: Now, we asked both Russia and Burisma for comment. Neither have responded, while House Speaker Nancy Pelosi today called this new report alarming and demanded that the Trump administration brief Congress on what it knows.

She also accused President Trump and Senate Republicans of doing nothing, refusing to defend the integrity of U.S. elections -- Jake.

TAPPER: And, Alex, it's not just Russia that's a concern, as I understand it.

MARQUARDT: No, they're among the strongest, but it's an ever-growing group.

And today we heard from the intelligence community's top elections person, Shelby Pierson. She said that, along with Russia, you have China, Iran, North Korea and what she called non-state hacktivists who have the opportunity, the means and potentially the motive to get involved in the 2020 U.S. elections.

TAPPER: Quite dispiriting. Those who don't say anything about it today, I mean, they could be targets tomorrow.

MARQUARDT: Right.

TAPPER: Alex Marquardt, thanks so much.

A reminder, you can see tonight's CNN presidential debate, in partnership with "The Des Moines Register," tonight, 9:00 p.m. Eastern here on CNN, only here on CNN.

And you can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter @JakeTapper. You can tweet show @THELEADCNN.

Our coverage on CNN continues right now.

Thanks for watching. I will see you tomorrow.

[17:00:00]