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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Gun Rights Rally in Virginia; Democratic Race Heats Up; Interview With Sen. Doug Jones (D-AL). Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired January 20, 2020 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:30:00]

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Then the Senate is going to begin what could be a very contentious fight over that resolution.

Now, we expect the beginning of that debate to be in an open session, to be public. And when that is debated, it won't be senators debating on the Senate floor. It will be the impeachment managers on the House side making the case for Democrats and the president's defense team making the case for the Republicans.

Now, once that resolution debate has been concluded, after two hours, then Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer will offer an amendment to try to require witnesses and documents to be produced as part of the trial.

Now, that is something that will also be debated for about two hours, and then that vote will eventually go down. Republicans are expected to reject that. And it's uncertain whether or not Schumer could offer even more amendments. He's allowed to do just that.

But if he does, that could continue to delay the opening arguments of these proceedings. Now, Brianna, you mentioned it, though. Senators could move into closed session at virtually any time; 51 senators would have to vote to go into closed session, because senators are not allowed to talk.

And if they do want to talk or debate, that's when they would go into that private session. So a lot of uncertainty about exactly how this will play out. But no question about it, there will be a fight at the beginning of tomorrow's highly anticipated trial -- Brianna.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Are you getting a better sense of how long this is going to last?

RAJU: Well, it's still uncertain, because, as I said, Mitch McConnell has not detailed the exact procedures under the resolution that he plans to put forward as late as tomorrow.

But what we are hearing from our sources is that Republicans are looking at structuring the trial to essentially allow for 24 hours on each side, and that will be split up into two days or 12 hours apiece on each side for opening arguments. And then after that, each senator -- the senators would have about 16

hours to question. And those questions would be done. They would write the questions down. The chief justice would actually say those questions.

But Democrats are expected to object if they move that -- those -- as outlined there, because under the Clinton standard, there were 24 hours, but it was split among four days.

But we're looking at potentially 12 days apiece. Still, again, unclear whether Mitch McConnell goes that route. But if it does, expect them to fight over that as well -- Brianna.

KEILAR: These 12-hour stretches, right? You mean -- you said 12 days, but you mean 12 hours. That's incredibly long.

RAJU: Twelve hours, yes, long, early in the afternoon until late at night potentially.

KEILAR: Very, very late.

All right, Manu, thank you so much live for us from Capitol Hill, and a big week and several weeks ahead of you, perhaps.

Let's talk now to Democratic Senator Doug Jones of Alabama. He is a juror in the impeachment trial.

Sir, thank you for joining us.

SEN. DOUG JONES (D-AL): My pleasure, Brianna. Thank you.

KEILAR: What do you think about, in this defense memo submitted by President Trump's legal team, that they insist the president did not commit a crime and that he was right to ask Ukraine to look into the Bidens and Burisma?

JONES: Well, I haven't read that in full detail. I have been studying the House managers' report, and I'm going to start looking at the president's. It was just filed today.

I don't think he has a right to simply look into something and withhold congressionally approved aid. We need to look at all of the facts here. We will just see.

I think that, right now, what we need to hear is the legal arguments from both sides. And let's -- let's get the facts and see how this picture turns out.

I think, right now, you're just seeing both sides being advocates. And we will have to see how that shakes out.

KEILAR: Would you support a rules package that allows witnesses, but only later in the process, not in the beginning, which is what Democrats say they want?

JONES: If it just -- quote -- "allows for a vote," I would not support that.

I think we need to do this on the front end. I have been consistent about that. I have said all along that the president should not be blocking witnesses and should be participating in this.

I think that the American people need a full, fair and complete hearing. So I'm not going to vote for a package that does not allow for witnesses on the front end, so the House managers and the president's team can start that process, depose those witnesses now, to try to make sure that this goes as efficient as possible.

One thing I worry about is that this thing is just going to get jammed in front of the American public. And, all of a sudden, we're going to get an argument made, well, we just don't need witnesses because it's just going to drag it out into February.

That's just not right. It's not fair. And I think the American people deserve better.

KEILAR: If you do get to call witnesses, as you're very well aware, the tradeoff could be that Republicans will get witnesses. That would be an expectation. Would you be OK with Hunter Biden testifying?

JONES: Well, I think that somebody has to look and see the relevance.

I'm OK with any witnesses, witnesses that have relevance to the charges.

KEILAR: Is he relevant?

JONES: I don't know. I haven' -- I don't think it is. That's just -- that's my opinion right now. And I think the chief justice would be the first to rule on that.

It doesn't seem to me that what was going on in 2015 with Hunter Biden is relevant to the underlying charge of what this president has been charged with. If others have a disagreement, then they can feel free to call Mr. Biden.

But I don't see the relevance in that. I'd like to think -- I think that there are witnesses.

[16:35:05]

And remember this. Even witnesses that the House managers want to call will be cross-examined by the president's lawyers. The president has complained that he's not gotten due process, that he didn't get to participate, even though he was invited to, in the House Judiciary Committee.

Any witness now is subject to cross-examination by the president's very able counsel.

So, that's the truth-telling part of this. Cross-examination is the great tool for seeking the truth. KEILAR: There's a new CNN poll, and it finds that people in

battleground states are evenly split here, 49 percent who say that President Trump should be removed from office.

Your seat, of course, isn't a battleground state. You only won your seat by two points. And I think that was a giant surprise pretty much to everybody.

(LAUGHTER)

KEILAR: Can you get reelected in a red state like that if you vote to convict and remove the president?

JONES: I'm going to get reelected regardless, Brianna. It doesn't matter that -- I'm going to be able to -- whatever -- whichever I vote, I will be able to come back to the people of Alabama and do two things.

Number one, I will be able to explain my vote and justify it, according to my oath and the Constitution. The second thing, I can point to a record of success in only two years in the United States Senate, we will be going on three in November, of success for the people of Alabama.

And that's what folks are looking for. They're looking for health care. They're looking for rural broadband. They're looking to make sure their hospitals are open and they got work force development. They're looking for a fair shake for all people and one Alabama, not just for the rich and the famous.

So that's what's going to carry me over the threshold in November.

KEILAR: Senator, thank you so much, Doug Jones of Alabama. We appreciate your time.

JONES: It's my pleasure, Brianna. Thank you.

KEILAR: We have breaking news right now.

President Trump and there you see Vice President Mike Pence are visiting the Martin Luther King Jr. Memorial in Washington, D.C., not far from the White House on this holiday, recognizing the civil rights icon.

The president and vice president laid a wreath there at the memorial site on this day last year.

And coming up, from refusing a handshake to walking arm in arm, Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders share a moment today, as tensions rise with another big-name candidate.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:41:46]

KEILAR: The top Democratic candidates barnstorming Iowa with exactly two weeks left until the first presidential contest.

And today, before locking horns again, they linked arms, marching in unity to honor Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

As CNN's Arlette Saenz reports, it's a show of unity that is short- lived.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER (voice-over): With the Iowa caucuses two weeks away, the 2020 Democratic field out in full force, first stopping in South Carolina, where the rivals marched arm and arm for Martin Luther King Day, then many of them rushing this afternoon to Iowa for separate events across the Hawkeye State, as tensions simmered among the top tier of candidates.

Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders facing off over Social Security. Biden accused the Sanders campaign of promoting a 2018 video which takes the former vice president out of context by suggesting he wanted to cut the entitlement program.

JOSEPH BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: But it is simply a lie, that video that's going around. And I'm looking for his campaign to come forward and just own it, but they haven't done it yet.

SAENZ: Sanders is defending his criticism of Biden's record on Social Security.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: On the issue of social secure, time and time again, Joe Biden has been clear in supporting cuts to Social Security.

SAENZ: But Biden's also issuing a warning about how a Sanders or Elizabeth Warren nomination could affect other Democrats on the ballot come November.

BIDEN: I'm just asking a rhetorical question. Bernie's the top of the ticket in North -- in South Carolina, or Warren is the top of the ticket. How many Democrats down the line you think are going to win?

SAENZ: As the 2020 contenders focus on the early states, a pair of rivals picked up a national endorsement. In an unprecedented move, "The New York Times" editorial board announcing its backing Amy Klobuchar and Elizabeth Warren for president, writing: "Both the radical and the realist models warrant serious consideration. If there were ever a time to be open to new ideas, it is now. That's why we're endorsing the most effective advocates for each approach."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SAENZ: And, soon, four of the presidential contenders will turn their attention from the campaign trail to Capitol Hill.

Senators Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Amy Klobuchar and Michael Bennet all preparing to return to Washington to sit as jurors in President Trump's impeachment trial. That could take them off the campaign trail for a good chunk of time in these final weeks before voting begins -- Brianna.

KEILAR: It will be an interesting time.

Arlette, thank you so much for that.

OK, let's talk about "The New York Times" editorial board endorsing both Amy Klobuchar and Elizabeth Warren. And one of the biggest arguments from the paper is that selecting these two over Sanders and Biden is that those men are too old. It's really time to pass the torch.

What do you think?

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's a bit of a cop-out, the whole piece?

I mean, the whole point of an endorsement is that you pick one.

KEILAR: Make a choice?

FINNEY: Make a choice. Help people make their choice.

But, look, if you are Amy Klobuchar, that is a great -- something to send out to your donors. And didn't hurt Elizabeth Warren either.

I can't imagine Bernie like being called old, although he said it, I guess, on a radio interview the other day.

[16:45:01]

I do think what they -- one thing they pointed out about Warren that I think was important is, she is a very effective advocate for her policy ideas. Even if you disagree her, she has done a really excellent job on the campaign trail in explaining what she wants to do and how she wants to do it.

And so good to see her get some credit for that.

KEILAR: What did you think? Old -- they're old white guys, basically, they're saying, too old, it's time to pass the torch.

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Some people say that about "The New York Times" on the right, the establishment, and traditionalists, and so forth and so on.

(CROSSTALK)

GERGEN: Listen, I thought it was a terrific break for her.

She's still a very big long shot to win in Iowa or early on, but she's been coming out. She has good debates. But one thing I think this did do is that, if she's not the nominee, she's a sure bet to be on the short list for vice president.

And I think that the article helped her great deal in that. JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Particularly when she's going to be sitting in the Senate as a juror, and for we don't know how many weeks.

It's really going to be a test of the organization of these candidates that have already -- have planted in the state, while you have got these other candidates that are running around, like Biden and Buttigieg, who are going to be able to keep having those face-to-face interactions with voters, as time ticks by ever closer to the caucuses.

KEILAR: You want to be the contrarian on this? Do you think that "The New York Times" has suffered unduly for this choice?

BILL KRISTOL, DIRECTOR, DEFENDING DEMOCRACY TOGETHER: I feel, in the spirit of "The New York Times," I want to say that Jackie and Karen are my -- I endorse them both.

(LAUGHTER)

KRISTOL: And David and Brianna are very good.

(LAUGHTER)

KRISTOL: I'm good with all of you guys.

Kind of pathetic, after all the hoopla and lead-up to it. And then they do represent a fundamental choice, I would say, Amy Klobuchar, a more moderate Democrat, Elizabeth Warren, the sort of standard bearer of progressivism.

It's kind of weird. That's one of the major issues in the race, right? Does the party goes sort of Clinton Democrat or does it go progressive Democrat? And "The New York Times" is sort of, well...

KUCINICH: They said yes.

KRISTOL: Yes. Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

KEILAR: Devil's advocate, they're sending a message, right, which is that they think -- they think that the party should unite perhaps?

What do you think, Karen?

KUCINICH: Behind who?

FINNEY: Look, the party is going to have to unite, and the country's going to have to unite.

I mean, this -- we're in such a divisive period of our history. And that's one of the things that I think Biden does a good job of talking about and I would like to see the other candidates talk a little bit more about.

Healing this country in the aftermath of the Trump presidency is going to be no small task. And we will need someone who has the gravitas to be able to do that.

GERGEN: I just think we're going to start seeing a shift now if Joe Biden has essentially Iowa to himself with a few others for the next two weeks, and these four are shut down two weeks.

We have never seen anything like that before. I think the question arises, can they go on television at night after the proceedings are over in the Senate and make their case?

KEILAR: Yes. And will it be enough since they can't be in Iowa?

GERGEN: I agree with that.

KEILAR: Officials today are on edge, with some heavily armed protesters turning out to rally against gun restrictions.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:52:17]

KEILAR: Today, thousands of protesters, some heavily armed, rallying in Virginia's state capital, protesting legislation that would restrict access to guns.

As CNN's Nick Valencia reports, officials feared violence after the governor said there were threats from extremist groups.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They came by the thousands, flooding the streets of Virginia's capital.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Second Amendment and God!

VALENCIA: Gun rights activists, some heavily armed, carrying semiautomatic weapons and wearing body armor, protesting legislation that would restrict access to firearms in the state.

MANNY VEGA, PROTESTER We're here to represent every citizen here that wants to keep the right to bear arms.

VALENCIA: An event the governor and state law enforcement officials feared would get out of control instead was peaceful.

REGGIE BOWLES, PROTESTER: Wanted to come out here and show them that I can come out here, act reasonable.

VALENCIA: But in the days leading up to the rally, Virginia officials worried the worst could happen. A perimeter was set up around Richmond's Capitol Building. Outside of it, thousands round with weapons in hand. Inside of it, no guns allowed, after Governor Ralph Northam issued a temporary weapons ban, citing credible threats of violence from extremist and white nationalist groups.

GOV. RALPH NORTHAM (D-VA): Intelligence shows the threat of armed militia groups storming our capitol.

VALENCIA: Last week, the FBI arrested three alleged members of a radical neo-Nazi group, two accused of having machine guns and planning to attend the rally, the kind of concern the governor cited in issuing the temporary weapons ban, which the governor's critics say was political theater.

(on camera): You don't believe that there's credible threats?

SEAN RESTATTER, GUN RIGHTS ADVOCATE: I don't think there's credible threats. I think what I see around here are very legitimate gun owners who have legitimate gripes with the government. And Ralph Northam is trying to pettifog the issue and portray it as something that it's not.

VALENCIA: At the core of the protesters' anger is the belief the governor and the legislature controlled by the Democrats are attempting to restrict gun ownership.

The state Senate last week passed three gun control measures. As a result, some protesters circulated petitions to recall the governor.

RESTATTER: There might be left -- far right and far left groups that might be out here today. But the vast majority of the message is guns save lives and we believe in the Second Amendment.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VALENCIA: An estimated 22,000 people showed up here at today's event, 6,000 estimated here on the state grounds, another 16,000 here in the streets, where you're allowed to open carry your weapon.

And I did just speak to a source in the Virginia State Police Department who tells me they're very pleased with the way the event went today. The fact that no one was injured, they said, is a testament to how successful it was -- Brianna.

KEILAR: All right, Nick, thank you so much, Nick Valencia in Richmond, Virginia.

A first for a military branch that's been around for nearly 250 years.

We will have that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:59:31]

KEILAR: This afternoon, the U.S. Navy announced it is naming its newest aircraft carrier after Mess Attendant 2nd Class Doris Miller, a World War II veteran who leapt into action during the attack on Pearl Harbor. The Navy says Miller loaded and fired a machine gun, until he ran out

of ammo, a weapon that Miller had not even been trained to operate, because he was an African-American in the segregated military.

The USS Doris Miller is the first aircraft carrier named for an enlisted sailor and for an African-American.

And a reminder: The historic impeachment trial of President Trump begins tomorrow.