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The Lead with Jake Tapper
Interview With Rep. David Cicilline (D-RI); Trump Commutes Sentences of Controversial Figures. Aired 4-4:30p ET
Aired February 18, 2020 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:00]
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"THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" starts right now.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Remember, during impeachment, when Republican senators said that President Trump really cared about taking a stand against corruption?
THE LEAD starts right now.
Breaking today, a pardon and clemency spree. President Trump gives a get-out-of-jail-free card to the man who tried to sell Barack Obama's Senate seat. Oh, and he pardoned a former NYPD commissioner charged with tax fraud and lying to the White House.
The swamp is sure getting crowded today.
Ticket to Vegas. Mike Bloomberg makes it onto the next debate stage and surges in a new national poll, all the way up to second place. But it's Bernie Sanders, the front-runner, who is pulling away.
And a judge says she will sentence Trump pal and former adviser Roger Stone on Thursday, as the president flips out over the case, threatening to sue everyone all over the place.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
TAPPER: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.
And we begin today with breaking news. After weeks of House and Senate Republicans claiming, during the impeachment trial, that President Trump cares gravely about battling corruption, President Trump this afternoon officially forgave crimes committed by powerful men who abused their office for personal gains, a continuation of the president's post-acquittal campaign of punishing his enemies and rewarding his friends. It's a world in which prosecutors are often seen as the bad guys and
criminals the good guys. The president announced this afternoon he's communing the sentence of the former Illinois Democratic Governor Rod Blagojevich, a one-time contestant on President Trump's TV show "Celebrity Apprentice."
Blagojevich was convicted of campaign fraud. He was trying to sell an open Senate seat or, as the governor so eloquently put it in one caught-on-tape moment:
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ROD BLAGOJEVICH (D), FORMER ILLINOIS GOVERNOR: I have got this thing. And it's a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) thing, golden. And I'm just not giving it up for (EXPLETIVE DELETED) nothing.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
TAPPER: President Trump also pardoning former New York Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik, who was convicted of tax fraud and lying to officials, abusing his office by allowing a company that wanted to do business with New York City to renovate his apartment, a gift that Kerik accepted and hid.
These were just two from a list of seven pardons and four commutations that President Trump announced today, with observers wondering what these actions to benefit these two well-connected powerful men who abused their positions might mean when it comes to possible similar actions for felonious Trump aides such as Paul Manafort and Michael Flynn and, of course, Roger Stone.
As CNN's Kaitlan Collins now reports, President Trump is making these moves despite sharp warnings from some Republicans and just two days before friend and confidant Stone is to be sentenced.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Before heading West today, President Trump pardoned several white-collar criminals and committed the former governor of Illinois's prison sentence.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes, we have commuted the sentence of Rod Blagojevich.
COLLINS: Rod Blagojevich was serving 14 years after he was convicted of essentially trying to sell President Barack Obama's open Senate seat for personal gain.
TRUMP: Governor.
COLLINS: He once appeared on "The Apprentice," but was fired by Trump on the show.
TRUMP: But, Rod, you're fired.
COLLINS: Though, lately, Trump has paid attention to efforts by his family to get him out of prison.
PATRICIA BLAGOJEVICH, WIFE OF ROD BLAGOJEVICH: I know the president's got a lot on his hands.
TRUMP: I watched his wife on television. I don't know him very well.
COLLINS: Trump came close to commuting Blagojevich's sentence last summer, before being talked out of it by Illinois Republicans, who warned him about the blowback he'd face for intervening in what many saw as the pay-to-play scheme he campaigned against.
TRUMP: There was a prosecution by the same people, Comey, Fitzpatrick, the same group.
COLLINS: Today, the president also pardoned former New York City Police Commissioner Bernie Kerik, who was found guilty of eight felonies, including tax fraud and lying to White House officials.
TRUMP: Yes, I just pardoned Bernie Kerik, a man who has had many recommendations from a lot of good people.
COLLINS: The president has also watched Kerik on FOX News, where he appeared last night.
Kerik was also heavily involved in the case of Eddie Gallagher, the Navy SEAL accused of war crimes whom Trump also recently cleared.
BERNARD KERIK, FORMER NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: This was a retaliatory measure by the admiral, an admiral that has overseen this entire corrupt, unethical and criminal investigation and should be booted from the Navy SEALs.
COLLINS: Trump didn't stop there. He also pardoned the former owner of the San Francisco 49ers Eddie DeBartolo, who was found guilty of attempting to conceal an extortion attempt, and Michael Milken, the 1980s investment banker known as the junk bonds king who has sought to wipe clean his securities fraud conviction for decades.
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TRUMP: He paid a big price, paid a very tough price. But he's done an incredible job.
COLLINS: Despite all of that, the president wouldn't say if he's considering leniency for his longtime friend Roger Stone, who is set to be sentenced in just two days.
TRUMP: I haven't given it any thought.
COLLINS: Sources say, that's not true, and that Trump has weighed pardoning Stone in recent weeks, as Stone's allies have lobbied the president to do so.
TRUMP: I'm actually, I guess, the chief law enforcement officer of the country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: Now, Jake, in total, today, the president issued seven pardons, four commutations.
He only mentioned the most prominent of the white-collar criminals on that list, but there were several others as well. Only two of those were related to drug offenses, and one had to do with a stolen car ring.
TAPPER: All right, Kaitlan Collins at the White House for us, thank you so much.
Joining me now to discuss is Congressman David Cicilline. He's a Democrat from Rhode Island. He serves on the House Judiciary Committee.
Congressman, thanks for joining us.
So, let me just start...
REP. DAVID CICILLINE (D-RI): My pleasure.
TAPPER: Is the president's commutation and pardoning of Rod Blagojevich, Bernie Kerik, Michael Milken, those three, inappropriate, in your view?
CICILLINE: Of course it is.
Look, this is the president who claimed that he was genuinely concerned about corruption, and that's why he was attempting to persuade or extort the new president to launch a bogus investigation against his chief political rival.
Most presidents have used restraint in using the pardon power. The president of the United States is now pardoning people who have power, who have abused their positions for financial gain.
And everyone in this country is entitled to equal justice under the law. You get the sense from President Trump today that his friends and cronies are entitled to one set of rules, and everyone else is required to follow a different set of rules.
And I think this is a setup for consideration of pardons for Paul Manafort, for Roger Stone, for Michael Flynn. He's trying to create a lot of noise. He's doing a lot of pardons and clemencies.
And when he said, oh, I haven't even thought about Roger Stone, that's laughable.
TAPPER: So, let me just ask you this. These are not the first, controversial pardons and commutations.
Would you -- I don't even know where you were in 2000. But would you have an issue with the pardon of Marc Rich that President Clinton granted, despite the fact that a lot of people thought he shouldn't have done that? And do you think, in general, maybe there should be a rethinking of
the pardon power for the president, not just this president, but anybody president?
CICILLINE: Well, I think past presidents have used restraint.
I certainly haven't agree with every pardon that was issued of any of the past presidents. But there's an office of the pardon attorney. There's a process that you go through.
But what I think is happening here is, the president is issuing pardons, again, to people who have abused their positions of trust, public corruption cases.
And it's undermining confidence that people have in the way our government is supposed to work. He keeps saying, oh, Roger Stone's been treated very unfairly.
You know who has been treated very unfairly? Kevin Bailey, who spent 28 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit, who was recently freed by The Innocence Project. Those are people who are treated unfairly.
But the idea of using the pardon power to take care of friends or to begin to set the stage, so that you can provide pardons or clemency to your closest associates, is very dangerous.
And I think what the president is doing is issuing these pardons on the eve of Roger Stone's sentencing, so that he can now consider pardoning him, pardoning Paul Manafort, pardoning party Michael Flynn.
That's particularly dangerous and different. When you're pardoning people who are close associates who have engaged in activities and have been the subject of investigations that involve the president, a pardon in that context is very, very different.
TAPPER: Take a listen to something President Trump said this afternoon about his involvement with Justice Department matters, including the Roger Stone case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Just so you understand, I chose not to be involved. I'm allowed to be totally involved.
I'm actually, I guess, the chief law enforcement officer of the country, but I have chosen not to be involved.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Is he wrong about his authority?
CICILLINE: Yes, he's wrong. He's not the chief law enforcement officer of the country. He's the president of the United States.
We have a Justice Department that, in normal times, would be led by an attorney general, who, in fact, is the chief law enforcement official in this country. They don't work for the president. They work for the American people. They are responsible to uphold the law and the Constitution and the rule of law.
And it is unprecedented and improper for the president of the United States to meddle in, interfere in any way in individual cases, sentencing recommendations. Over 2,000 former officials of the Department of Justice have condemned it and called on the attorney general to resign.
But, no, the president does not have the right to meddle in the individual cases in the Justice Department. Our whole system is premised on the notion of blind justice. Lady Justice is blind. It doesn't matter who you are. You're entitled to equal justice under the law.
Friends of the president's don't get one set of treatment, and people who don't know the president get a different kind of treatment. That's not the way the justice system is supposed to work.
[16:10:03]
TAPPER: Congressman, Democrats impeached the president. It failed in the Senate.
Frankly, he seems more emboldened than ever. What options do you and other House Democrats have to check the president's power?
CICILLINE: Right.
I mean, we will, of course -- I expect to have hearings on this. There's a process that the president is expected to follow in granting pardons or granting clemency.
We will try to bring attention to this issue on behalf of the American people. We will continue to do oversight.
But this is the danger when you have a president who is engaged in grave misconduct, and in face of overwhelming evidence to that, the Republicans in the Senate refused to convict the president.
And so he does, in fact, feel like he can do anything he wants and he's not accountable. That's the message the Senate sent him.
And when Senator Collins said, oh, I think the president learned a lesson, he did learn a lesson. And the lesson is, he can do whatever he wants.
We cannot allow a president to continue to behave this way. The House will continue to conduct our oversight responsibilities, bring attention to this.
But, ultimately, the American people are going to have to decide in November, do we want to countenance four more years of this conduct of a president who thinks he's above the law, who thinks he can corrupt an American presidential election, corrupt the Department of Justice, meddle in their administration of justice?
And that's ultimately going to be decided by the voters in November.
TAPPER: Congressman David Cicilline, Democrat of Rhode Island, thank you so much for your time, sir. Appreciate it.
Coming up: "Celebrity Apprentice" is not the only thing President Trump and Rod Blagojevich have in common. That's next.
Then, it's the same place used to deal with the Ebola virus in the U.S. Now 13 Americans are calling it home. We will take you inside the coronavirus containment center.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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TAPPER: We are back with the breaking news.
If you think that President Trump's announcement this afternoon came out of nowhere, that he is pardoning former New York City police chief, Bernie Kerik, and commuting the sentence of Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich, just go back through FOX News archives to see where the president, may have gotten the idea. Kerik appeared just last night on the president's favorite channel and Blagojevich's wife Patti has been making pleas for her husband on Fox multiple times which the president said he watched.
Our panel is here to chew over this. And just take a listen, here is Rod Blagojevich's wife Patti on Fox.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTHA MACCALLUM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Is there any update? Do you think that you're getting anywhere with your requests to have him pardoned by the president?
PATTI BLAGOJEVICH, ROD BLAGOJEVICH'S WIFE: Well, I know the president has a lot on his hands, that's for sure. I mean, all you have to do is look at your show tonight, but, you know, when he mentioned my husband last May, it did give us tremendous amount of hope.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So, I mean, this does seem to be the way to get a pardon is to get friendly Fox hosts to take on your cause and just appear on the channel until the president tweets it and then orders it.
BILL KRISTOL, CONSERVATIVE WRITER: I think the other way to get a pardon is having a pending sentencing or jail, possible jail term for someone who might have a lot of information on the president who is acquaintance of the president, who's involved in the president's campaign, roger stone, right, sentencing is Thursday, hasn't flipped. And remind Roger Stone, want to remind Paul Manafort having a tough
time, having been in jail now for a bit, that, you know, hang in there, hang in there. I know, I used the pardon power. Guess what, maybe I won't use it until November 4th, day after election, but he certainly will use it then, and he's signaling that.
TAPPER: And, Mehdi, if you look at the list of crimes these guys are accused of -- fraud, lying to officials, corruption, they're similar to what we have seen from President Trump's associates and friends.
MEHDI HASAN, SENIOR CONTRIBUTOR, THE INTERCEPT: This is who Trump is. He said I am going to drain the swamp. Look at the three most high profile ones today, you got Kerik, the former police chief, tax fraud I think he was convicted for, but Michael Milken, former ambassador, for securities fraud, and you've got, of course, Rod Blagojevich who tried to sell a Senate seat.
So, this is Donald Trump, champion of blue collar working people, scourge of corruption. But, you know, this is how -- he said today, I don't think Blagojevich did anything other politicians wouldn't do. He said in the past, this classic Trumpian pro projection. Like he thinks of a bad thing, and he goes, well, everyone does it.
He said -- today, I think he said, he seems like a very nice guy. Just to be clear, Rod Blagojevich didn't just try to sell the Senate seat, he withheld government funding for a children's hospital, Jake, for children's hospital, until he got a campaign contribution in return.
TAPPER: Yes, sloppy guy, horrible --
HASAN: To commuting -- to commuting his sentence is very on brand for Trump if you think about it. For Trump, there's like, there's Obama, there's James Comey's FBI, there's the wife on Fox News, he was on "Celebrity Apprentice," it's like a perfect Trumpian storm.
TAPPER: And, Shan, you've worked with the office of the pardon attorney. To be clear, you were out of the loop, substantially (ph) so on the Marc Rich pardon, which I talked about earlier.
What would Attorney General Barr's involvement in this? Theoretically, he was -- he was part of the discussions.
SHAN WU, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, we don't know that.
TAPPER: Right.
WU: But, normally, the pardon attorney does a pretty extensive background investigation. They're going to talk to prosecutors. They're going to get recommendations, and commutation is different than pardon. Commutation is reducing life of the sentence.
They normally look at things like age, illness, things like that. In this instance, I mean, the pardon attorney's office seems to be sort of an extinct animal, I don't know what input they have. But notably, there is a question, which is, where is Barr on this issue? I mean, with Milken, for example, another one pardon that was issued
today, Trump is again undermining the prosecution, saying this is kind of a novel idea. I mean, insider trading is not a prosecution idea, and he's putting down the prosecution.
Where is Barr to stand up for the fact that, hey, we stand behind our prosecutions.
TAPPER: And while he is bad-mouthing prosecutors for quite some time now, the president, and, Nia-Malika, five Republicans from the Illinois congressional delegation issued a statement and joined them in saying they're disappointed with the decision to commute Blagojevich's sentence, Democratic Senator Dick Durbin said that Blagojevich, a fellow Democrat, betrayed the people of Illinois, should be held accountable. There're some bipartisan unity there.
I guess my real question about, are those five from the congressional delegation going to do anything about it?
NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Probably not. I mean, from what we've seen from Republicans so far, I mean, I think you could argue that they gave the president license to essentially do what he wanted to do because of what happened previously in his administration.
[16:20:09]
Obviously, the impeachment comes foremost to mind. So, no, I mean, I think there will be concern, but that's about it.
Listen, I think what we might be talking about months from now might not necessarily be these commutations and pardons, but commutations of average people, right? This is something that would get bipartisan support and certainly some support among progressives.
There are two people on the list, Tynice Nicole Hall, Crystal Munoz, women who were caught up in the drug trade, served multiple years in prison, and whose sentences were commuted. We have seen the president make the argument that he is on the side of criminal justice reform in a way that Democrats haven't been. We saw the Alice Marie Johnson --
TAPPER: It's a lie.
HENDERSON: -- ad, for instance, and I imagine we can see some of the folks on this list, particularly those two women, used in the same way, that Donald Trump has used Alice Marie Johnson --
TAPPER: That is that not an example --
HASAN: No, because if you look at the numbers, Barack Obama I think commuted, went through the process of nearly 4,000 people in his first three years. Trump has I think done 200, over 24 people prior to today got pardons, five were ordinary people, the other 19 connected to the White House for the Trump campaign. He has the lowest record when it comes to pardons and commutations. TAPPER: And, Shan, because I know we're losing you after this block,
Trump said Blagojevich was convicted for being stupid. I recall the case, and it was a lot more than that.
WU: Oh, yes, and also, stupid is not normally a factor that the pardon attorney takes into consideration. That's usually part of the criminal justice system. And the problem here is in terms of integrity of the system, public confidence in it, it's completely gone because there's no system at all. I mean, he just chooses whoever he wants to choose. It tends to be whoever has his attention at the moment.
And if you want people to respect the power of the executive, you have to make them feel like he is actually looking at the merits of the case, not just whatever happens that catches his attention that night on Fox.
TAPPER: And whether or not they're his friends.
KRISTOL: Or -- and people he can put in TV ads. As you say, that's a very -- think about that. You're pardoning people so you can make appeals to certainly communities --
(CROSSTALK)
HASAN: And fundraising.
KRISTOL: -- to certain communities in an election campaign. And it's not entirely stupid as a pure political matter. Oh, he has some sympathy for us. You might shave your negative margins in the African-American or Hispanic communities, but it's a heck of a reason to --
TAPPER: Yes. Everyone, stick around. We got a lot more to talk about.
Ignoring the noise, the judge in the Roger Stone case making a big announcement. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:27:20]
TAPPER: And we're back with the politics lead.
Amid pardons and commutations from President Trump, his long time adviser Roger Stone will be sentenced Thursday by Judge Amy Berman Jackson for his crimes. Despite all the legal drama, running commentary, and attempted interference from President Trump.
The president today backed Stone's request for new trial, based on anti-Trump social media posts from the jury forewoman, Judge Jackson says she will consider that separately. But Trump's continued tweeting about the matter puts him directly at odds with his own attorney general, as CNN's Sara Murray explains.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A federal judge says Roger Stone will face sentencing as planned on Thursday despite objections from Stone's attorneys. In a roughly 15-minute call with Stone's attorneys and federal projects today, Judy Amy Berman Jackson did not address any of the controversy erupting in the background of Stone's case.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST, "THE SITUATION ROOM": Major breaking story unfolding now, all four federal prosecutors have now resigned.
MURRAY: Four prosecutors quit Stone's case after Justice Department leadership intervened to resend and lower the original sentencing recommendation of seven to nine years for Stone. And President Trump has suggested the judge is biased.
Today, Trump took Stone's side again.
TRUMP: I think it was a very, very rough thing that happened to Roger Stone.
MURRAY: And appearing to quote a FOX News contributor, Trump tweeted Judge Jackson now has a request for new trial, based on unambiguous and self outed bias of the foreperson of the jury. And adding: Pretty obvious he should get a new trial. I think almost any judge in the country would order a new trial. I'm not so sure about Judge Jackson. I don't know.
Stone's request for new trial alleging jury misconduct has been opposed by the Justice Department. Jackson said she will consider whether Stone, Trump's long time friend and political adviser, should get a new trial on a separate timeline from his sentencing. In the meantime, any punishment she hands down will be postponed. I can understand if there's any aspect of the sentence that the defendant believes he shouldn't have to serve, that he doesn't want to serve it while the motion is pending, Jackson said. Even if Stone is sentenced to prison time, it's possible Trump could relieve him with a pardon.
REPORTER: Are you going to pardon Roger Stone?
TRUMP: I haven't given it any thought. In the meantime, he is going through a process, but I think he's been treated very unfairly.
MURRAY: Today, Trump insisted he hasn't intervened in Stone's case, though he insists he's allowed to do so and lavished praise on Attorney General William Barr.
TRUMP: The attorney general is a man of incredible integrity. Just so you understand, I chose not to be involved. I'm allowed to be totally involved.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MURRAY: Now, some judges appear to be alarmed by the president and the attorney general appearing to be willing to intervene in politically sensitive cases. The executive committee for a federal judge's group is set to hold an emergency meeting via conference call on this issue tomorrow.
TAPPER: All right. Sara Murray, thank --
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