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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Harvard: U.S. Should Be Testing 900,000 People Per Day By May 15th; Record 20.5M Jobs Lost in April, Unemployment Rate Soars to 14.7 Percent, Worst Since Great Depression. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired May 08, 2020 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Harvard's Public Health Institute says the United States should be testing a million people a day by next Friday, May 15th if there is any hope to get a firm handle on the coronavirus pandemic. Right now, roughly 200,000 people are tested every day in the U.S.

And as CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta reports for us now, there is also serious concern about the accuracy and validity of some of the tests.

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DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If you've heard anything lately about tests, it's that we haven't performed enough of them in the United States.

MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH AND POLICY: Today, everyone is so focused on getting tested, they miss the point that a bad test is worse than no test.

GUPTA: And that may be another more fundamental problem. Just how good are the tests in the first place?

OSTERHOLM: The FDA basically has created a Wild, Wild West environment for this testing where under their approval process on an emergency basis, they've let tests on the market that basically have a very, very wide range of results.

GUPTA: Michael Osterholm is director for the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy in Minnesota.

OSTERHOLM: The quality of these tests right vary a great deal. And that's the challenge in terms of understanding, if you get a negative result, is it really negative?

GUPTA: A molecular diagnostic test can determine if you have actual virus inside of you, by drawing a sample from your nasal pharynx, or from your saliva by spitting into a vile like I did, and then testing it for genetic traces of the virus. How well the test can find those genetic markers is known as

sensitivity. If a test has poor sensitivity, it will result if too many false negative results. That means too many people testing negative for the virus when they are actually infected.

DR. GARY PROCOP, DIRECTOR OF MYCOLOGY AND PARASITOLOGY, CLEVELAND CLINIC: We undertook a study where we looked at over 200 specimens and tested them by all five methods, and there are differences between these tests.

GUPTA: Dr. Gary Procop is head of virology at the Cleveland Clinic. He and his team found three tests that have sensitive over 95 percent. The one from the CDC, Cepheid, and Roche, meaning they caught nearly all but 5 percent of cases.

But the now highly touted Abbott ID Now test which can give results in minutes missed up to 15 percent of infected patients. Another study found that it potentially missed 25 percent of infections. And that's a concern because despite their negative test results, those people are actually infected and can still spread the virus.

PROCOP: You would never want to use that test to screen somebody in the hospital, to put them into a COVID negative unit, because in that case, you can't afford to make a mistake.

GUPTA: In a statement, Abbott said that the type of viral transport media, the chemical used to carry the virus sample, could be diluting samples. We immediately communicated with our customers that they should use the direct swab method.

The findings of Procop study are still yet to be peer-reviewed.

PROCOP: Just because we need something put out emergently doesn't mean we should put out things that don't work appropriately.

GUPTA: When asked if accuracy was sacrificed at the expense of speed, an FDA spokesperson told CNN FDA oversight doesn't end with an EAU or emergency use authorization. We will continue to track these tests and take action if required.

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TAPPER: Sanjay, for those at home, why does the quality of tests vary so much?

GUPTA: I think there was this big rush, Jake, to get these tests out there. You know, we know that the CDC originally -- that original test they put out ended up being flawed, they couldn't validate some of the results. So, all of a sudden, it became this big push and, you know, all these test makers put their tests out there. They didn't validate their results ahead of time, they weren't necessarily asked to do that. That was the emergency use authorization.

Now, you're going through the process of going back and validating those tests. But, Jake, I mean, some of these tests that are being widely used in some situations still have a high false negative rate. We talk a lot about the numbers of tests. Until we can make sure the tests we are using are accurate, that may be a more fundamental problem.

TAPPER: And, Sanjay, President Trump just addressed the news that Vice President Pence's press secretary, Katie Miller, tested positive for coronavirus today.

Take a listen.

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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: She tested very good for a long period of time, and then, all of a sudden, today, she tested positive.

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This is why the whole concept of tests aren't necessarily great. The tests are perfect. But something could happen.

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TAPPER: Isn't the lesson we've learned here the exact opposite of that?

GUPTA: Yes, I mean, there's a couple of points here. One is that obviously the test can have a false negative rate. So, just leaving that aside for a second. They're not perfect. They need to be better especially if used for this sort of surveillance screening.

Two is that -- is that you can test negative at one point and then test positive the next day. It doesn't necessarily mean you became positive between the two tests. Maybe you got exposed before and you're just now testing positive.

But here -- the reason you test is that Katie, who by the way, I know, and I wish her well, I hope she's not symptomatic, it doesn't sound like she is.

TAPPER: Yes, of course.

GUPTA: But she needs to be isolated so she doesn't continue to spread this. Her contacts need to be traced. That is what you -- that is when you start to get into the mood of containment, whether it's the structure like the White House, the community or the country as a whole, that is when you shift the strategy from just trying to slow this thing down to really saying, OK, now we have the virus on the run, we're containing the virus, we're boxing it in. That's why you test.

And testing is absolutely critical. I would not use that example to say, hey, look, testing is really not that effective or is not that helpful.

TAPPER: No, it's the exact opposite. It's, now it won't spread from Katie, who I agree, we all wish her well, now it won't spread, and infect, say, a man in his 70s like President Trump.

Let me ask you, Dr. Birx said to you in CNN's town hall last night that the U.S. is testing about 2.5 percent of the population. We're three months into this pandemic, at a minimum.

Is that enough progress at this point?

GUPTA: I think if you look at any of these road maps to testing, 2.5 percent is way too low. I mean, it just -- it is. I mean, people focus a lot on the absolute number of tests. Another way to look at it is to say, we need to test enough people so that we're only getting 10 percent results back positive. In that case, it gives you a sense that you're testing enough people, you're getting enough people, 90 percent are negatives, that means you're doing enough testing. That's another way to look at it.

You interviewed Paul Romer, you know, from the world bank previously, and he said, you know, I mean, maybe 20 million tests a day, which sounds really audacious, but the point there is that you're basically testing just about the equivalent of the country every two weeks, which is roughly the incubation period.

So 2 percent is not nearly an enough, even if that's a monthly sort of figure.

TAPPER: All right, Sanjay, thanks so much, have a wonderful weekend. We'll see you this week.

And in between, be sure to listen to Sanjay's daily podcast, "Coronavirus: Fact Versus Fiction". It's on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen.

The worst jobs report in American history, pushing the unemployment rate to a level this country has not seen since the Great Depression. But that number can be misleading. We'll explain, next.

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TAPPER: Look at this line of cars stretching for miles outside the Palace Station Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas. The casino and hotel themselves are -- that's closed. But the parking lot is now a drive- through food pantry -- just another sign of the desperate times for those who need help just putting food on the table.

Nowhere is the evidence of this more stark than in today's jobs report. A record 20.5 million jobs lost in the month of April. That number does not reflect the true amount of people unemployed, furloughed, suffering.

Let's bring in CNN business anchor Julia Chatterley.

And, Julia, the April unemployment rate is 14.7 percent. But that number is a bit misleading, right? JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN BUSINESS ANCHOR, FIRST MOVE: Absolutely. As bad

as it is, there are just millions of people that weren't counted. For a start, you weren't added to these numbers if you weren't actively looking for a job. How do you actively look for a job during a shutdown?

The Labor Department actually said today that it could have been 5 percentage points higher if people had actually classed themselves in many cases as unemployed rather than absent. The truth is we don't know those absences last, and the real unemployment rate here is way higher.

TAPPER: The labor department uses a survey to create the unemployment rate, the bureau of labor statistics does. Eighteen million people described their job loss as temporary. That seems significant when determining how long a recovery might take, right?

CHATTERLEY: This could be the silver lining among some very dark clouds. This is almost 90 percent of people in the report saying, I'm going to go back to work soon. That confidence is key, but it doesn't tie with reports that we got from things like the Congressional Budget Office that say we'll have a 10 percent unemployment rate still at year's end. This will matter particularly if this is a slow recovery.

And the recovery has to be slow in some way because we're tackling the health crisis at the same time, and that's the conundrum here.

TAPPER: All right. Julia Chatterley, always great to have you on. We'll see you next week. Thank you so much. Have a great weekend.

President Trump called the video of an unarmed black man being shot and killed, quote, very disturbing and said justice would be done. Gregory and Travis McMichael, two armed white men, have now been arrested and charged with the murder of 25-year-old Ahmaud Arbery in Georgia.

The arrests, we should point out, did not happen until 74 days after the shooting, and coincidentally, I'm sure, two days after the video was released by a local radio personality.

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CNN has not independently verified the video, but it is consistent with police reports. The disturbing video, scene here, shows Arbery jogging, when the former police officer and his son chased him down and shot him in cold blood.

You can hear three gunshots before Arbery falls to the ground. This morning, Arbery's father reacted to news of the arrest of the two men.

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MARCUS ARBERY, FATHER OF AHMAUD ARBERY: It took a lot of release of our family, because we just was -- devastating.

These killers, like I said, to do a lynching -- lynching mob like that a young man. And they were still walking around here free. It was just devastating to our family.

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TAPPER: Today would have been Ahmaud Arbery's 26th birthday.

Coming up: One individual who was reportedly recommended by the federal government got $69 million to provide ventilators to New York, and he never delivered. What happened?

Stay with us.

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TAPPER: In just one almost unbelievable example of the rush to secure medical equipment across this country, New York state paid an electrical engineer $69 million to obtain 1,400 ventilators.

The Silicon Valley engineer reportedly had no history of producing or selling ventilators.

CNN's Drew Griffin investigates how states are granting contracts for millions of dollars to unvetted companies in the middle of this mad scramble.

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DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): While coronavirus was overwhelming hospitals, governors across the country were in a mad scramble to find supplies, and a lot of people were making a lot of money.

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): I can't tell you how many orders we placed with vendors who were acting basically is brokers who just started businesses in the middle of this pandemic because they saw an opportunity.

GRIFFIN: From New York to California to Louisiana, hundreds of millions of dollars in ventilators, masks and other personal protective equipment were ordered, but some of it never showed up.

After stalled deals, the governors of both California and Maryland say they are looking into deals with Blue Flame Medical, a pop-up medical supply company started by two Republican operatives.

GOV. LARRY HOGAN (R-MD): Unfortunately, across the country, there have been some cases of fraud. It is unconscionable that anyone would try to exploit this pandemic for profit or for personal gain.

GRIFFIN: An attorney speaking on behalf of Blue Flame told CNN the company fully intends to honor the contract for a million-and-a-half masks and 110 ventilators to Maryland and says that the Chinese government interfered with its ability to fulfill the shipment.

In Louisiana, at the height of New Orleans' pandemic crisis, $7 million of PPE supplies never showed, the third-party supplier now being charged with defrauding the VA.

Former federal prosecutor Elie Honig says, a crisis with billions of dollars being spent quickly is the perfect environment for wide-scale fraud.

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Any time there's opportunity, any time there's a pot of money, dishonest people will have their hands in it, even in times of emergency. For some people, there's just no bottom.

GRIFFIN: Adding to the issue, the lack of federal leadership on supplies that forced states to fend for themselves, scouring the Internet or relying upon unknown suppliers.

Case in point, New York state.

CUOMO: Competition among states. There were competition among private entities to get this equipment. The federal government was trying to buy it.

GRIFFIN: The one that's received the most attention is a deal for 1,400 ventilators from a Silicon Valley engineer. The state paid $69 million, but the ventilators never arrived.

A spokesman from Governor Cuomo's office said: "HHS referred us directly, confirming they were vetted and approved by the federal government themselves."

The engineer behind the failed deal did not return CNN's calls. And though most of the money has been returned, $10 million is still under negotiation.

CUOMO: As a nation, we can't go through this again.

GRIFFIN: To fight fraud and better their bargaining position, new York and six other Northeast states have now joined together to stabilize the supply chain and combat the fraud that is also spreading like the virus itself.

GOV. GINA RAIMONDO (D-RI): In an ideal world, you would have had the federal government stepping up earlier. That's not happening. So, governors are getting it done.

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GRIFFIN: The fact is, Jake, the federal government and a team organized of volunteers by Jared Kushner were behind that referral for that failed New York ventilator deal.

So it's not just about getting federal help. It's about getting good federal help. States say they're not getting it, so they're doing it themselves -- Jake.

TAPPER: Drew Griffin, thank you so much for that.

And be sure to tune in this Sunday morning to CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION." My guests will include White House economic adviser Kevin Hassett,

Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker, and Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms.

It's all Sunday at 9:00 and noon Eastern, only on CNN.

And coming up, we will remember some of the lives lost to this pandemic, including a nurse who was just days away from retirement.

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TAPPER: We want to take a moment now to remember just a couple of the tens of thousands of people we have lost in this pandemic.

Dr. Joseph Francis Wethington was a county medical examiner for 25 years near Minneapolis. He was married 65 years. He had six children, 14 grandchildren.

Jacqueline Harris (ph) of Southfield, Michigan, was 78 years old. Her son told CNN she came to the U.S. from Jamaica. She was a private home health care worker.

Sixty-five-year-old Barbara Birchenough was just days away from retirement when she died. She was a nurse at Clara Maass Medical Center in Belleville, New Jersey. It's also where she was admitted as a patient.

Her son Matthew says that it was comforting to know that his mother was cared for by friends and colleagues.

May their memories be a blessing.

Our coverage on CNN continues right now.

Today is the 30th anniversary of Wolf Blitzer on CNN. Be sure to wish him a happy anniversary.

Thanks for watching. I will see you Sunday.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

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