Return to Transcripts main page

The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump: "Totally Disagree" With Fauci on Reopening Schools; Trump's Mar-a-Lago Resort Set to Partially Reopen; 36.5 Million Have Filed for Unemployment Since Mid-March. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired May 14, 2020 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In January, I put -- and I was criticized by everybody, including Dr. Fauci.

[16:30:04]

I put in a wall. We put in a very strong wall. Only a small number of people were allowed in and they were all U.S. citizens.

I totally disagreed with him on schools and we will have -- I call them embers, I call them spikes. He called -- notice he used the word spike. Well, you might have that and we'll put it out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: We should be clear, Dr. Fauci never publicly disagreed with the president on restricting travel from China and the only thing new that Fauci said about schools this week was that he does not think a vaccine will be ready by September, which is the consensus view of experts. Fauci expressed concern if states don't adhere to the White House guidelines, there could be spikes that turn into outbreaks.

Those guidelines, I mean, that's the whole reason they exist. But sources tell CNN that President Trump, for whatever reason, feel that Dr. Fauci is undermining him and doesn't seem to be on his side.

CNN's Kaitlan Collins is back, along with our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Sanjay, let me start with you. There has been this concerted effort by some at Fox and conservatives to undermine not just Dr. Fauci but to attack scientific and medical expertise. From a health perspective, what's your reaction when you hear that?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think there is always this sort of desire to have 100 percent certainty about things. Within you go in as a scientist, the experts are sort of holding them, trying to say, can you be 100 percent certain of things? I think what you hear a lot is the way scientists typically present things. You know, within a certain degree of likelihood, probability. Here's where the evidence is sort of leading, you know, I think that's what Dr. Fauci has done all along. I mean, sometimes you know you have to couch things. You can't say for certain about when a vaccine might be ready or when schools might open again. I just want to say, Jake, you know, I watched the hearing very carefully. I watched the entire thing. At the very end of the hearing, they did come back to this point about schools again.

Senator Alexander asked Dr. Fauci, and he said, you're not saying that people shouldn't go back to school, right? And Dr. Fauci said, no, absolutely not, Mr. Chairman, what I was referring to is going back to school would be in the realm of a landscape of having more testing.

So, you know, the idea that we need more testing. The idea that there shouldn't be significant community transmission. Those are clear, he said that all along. So there are certain things that you know are being ignored and then they're assigning his position about schools, which is something he didn't say.

TAPPER: Yes. It's bizarre, Kaitlan, President Trump has been working with Dr. Fauci for months. Fauci's message has been consistent.

I really honestly don't see any real disagreements. It almost looks as though President Trump is trying to justify feeling animosity towards Fauci because all of these loud voices on the right are telling him to.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think there are a few things feeding into why we're now seeing the president publicly in break in with Fauci and criticized him in a direct way that we have not seen over the last several months, even though you often saw Fauci contradicts the president, or disagreed with something he said in all those press briefings.

And one is that the president is trying to get the country reopened. He thinks that is his only way back to re-election. He is looking at these devastating economy -- economic numbers. And he sees that.

And what he sees when Dr. Fauci goes and testifies and is urging caution about things like reopening schools and whatnot, the president sees that as an impediment to his ultimate goal, which is reopening the country. And he said yesterday he doesn't consider a state reopened if its schools are still closed. So, that's one thing.

The second is what you referenced. You are starting to hear a lot more criticism from the president's allies of Fauci. We saw it in the hearing where Senator Rand Paul was criticizing Fauci, saying he shouldn't be the one to make the ultimate decision, which Fauci pushed back on saying he's also never said that.

But also a lot of the anchors the president watches on television have been incredibly critical of Fauci in the last several days as well.

And, Jake, really just one other thing that someone pointed out to me is that Fauci and the president have not seen each other a lot lately. I don't think they've seen each ought at all this week. You are not seeing them appear at these briefings. And when someone is not there sitting in front of the president, I think it does make a difference. And people like Dr. Birx have office space inside the West Wing. So, she is still seeing the president pretty regularly. Dr. Fauci is at an office in another building. So, he is not here in the same capacity.

And I think all of that plays a factor in the president's public attitude towards him.

TAPPER: Sanjay, I want to ask you about if you research showing coronavirus can infect organs throughout the body, including not just the lungs, but the throat, the heart, the liver, brain, kidney, intestines. This is something that was believed to be only a respiratory illness.

How difficult is to find possible coronavirus treatment when new symptoms keep appearing?

[16:35:00]

GUPTA: Yes, I mean, it makes it very challenging. I mean, there are various organs that become infected in a way that we haven't seen before with this type of virus. I think what's interesting here, though, is that it almost makes you think about where to intervene, right, if you could potentially create therapeutics that aren't necessarily looking at trying to stop replication of the virus once it's already in the body, but preventing the virus from entering the body in the first place.

And there has been a lot of focus on these receptors, which they have now identified where the virus binds and trying to interfere with the virus's ability to do that, because if you can do that, Jake, then you can sort of affect all the downward sort of effects of this virus on the body. So that would mean, you know, oftentimes, we study these medications late, right, when someone is severely ill. I think it will be really interesting to see what happens with the medications studied early in the course of an illness, before someone gets sick or even perhaps preventatively, prophylactically, Jake.

TAPPER: And, Kaitlin Collins, let me bring you back, you have breaking news right now about one of the president's hotel properties.

COLLINS: Yes, and it's one that the president visits pretty often about this time of year, Mar-a-Lago, his club in Palm Beach, Florida, we are learning it will partially reopen this weekend, encouraging guests to still maintain social distancing, follow guidelines. They've sent out a notice to members, talking about, you know, best practices and how they're going to be cleaning the facilities while they're there.

But it does show a sign that even the president's own properties are making these steps towards reopening. The question that will remain is whether or not the president, himself, is going to visit there. And how soon will that -- something like that occur? We haven't gotten indication yet. Though, it's certainly a possibility.

TAPPER: All right. Kaitlan Collins, and Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks to both of you. Appreciate it. You can here more tonight when he hosts CNN's global town hall,

"CORONAVIRUS: FACTS AND FEARS" with Anderson Cooper. That's at 8:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.

Coming up, millions more yet again filing for unemployment for the first time this week. When will this tragic situation improve? A new theory. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:41:37]

TAPPER: In our money lead today, since the pandemic, more than 36 million American have now turned to their state governments for help to make ends meet, 36 million.

According to the Labor Department, 2.9 million filed unemployment claims for the very first time last week alone. You can see the spike in mid-March when businesses started to shut down. This does not count furloughs, or pay cuts, and those who gave up on getting benefits.

Let's bring in CNN business anchor Julia Chatterley to talk about all of this economic pain.

Julia, despite the overwhelming numbers, weekly claims for unemployment, first time claims are going down. Is that good news? Is that because states are reopening?

JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN BUSINESS ANCHOR, "FIRST MOVE": It's a good question. It's probably too early to tell and, yes, it's a good thing, because the worst is over, even though we are talking about millions of people.

But what I did spot, which I do think is a sign of a good news is that there were 16 states here, where people were already claiming benefit, actually saw the numbers fall. They were small drops, but perhaps it's a sign of rehiring. This will be key to watch next week.

TAPPER: And, Julia, you are asked all the time, several times a day, I'm sure, when might the unemployment situation improve? Today, there's a new theory. Tell us about that.

CHATTERLEY: And then some, Jake. Perhaps a game-changer here. There are over 50 million workers that are attached to small businesses that got loans under the PPP lending program. This is according to Deutsche Bank.

Now, the end date for getting loans for business and rehiring your workers is June 30th. So, analysts at Deutsche Bank is saying, perhaps we see a huge surge in rehiring around that date. No one is talking about this. And we're talking millions and millions of workers.

What would make this more likely, of course, is more clarity over the forgiveness part of these loans and more flexibility as to how and when this loan money is spent. But it could be a game changer. TAPPER: And Georgia is among the states with the highest unemployment

claims. Georgia started reopening businesses a few weeks they go in April. Is that a sign of Georgia businesses not rehiring, even though they can? What's going on?

CHATTERLEY: This is a great question. What you need in order to hire is demand. You need customers coming in the door remember door. You need confidence. So, again, something that we have to watch.

But what I can tell you based on the data of the cash that went to Georgia in these small loans, it should cover almost 90 percent of payrolls, Jake. The money's there. The conditions have to be right to get these workers back. This is the key. I sound like a broken regard.

TAPPER: All right. Julia Chatterley, CNN business anchor, thank you. As always, appreciate it.

In our politics lead today, Republican Senator Richard Burr stepped down as chair of the powerful Senate Intelligence Committee today. Burr says he didn't want the investigation into his stock sales to be a distraction. A senior Justice Department official confirms bur you are turned his phone over to the FBI yesterday after the highest levels of the Justice Department signed off on a search warrant.

Burr sold up to 1.7 million in stocks in February, around the time that he received classified briefings on the coronavirus pandemic. The senator claims he was only using publicly available data to make his decisions.

[16:45:01]

Senator Kelly Loeffler, Georgia Republican, also faces scrutiny over selling stock, along with her husband. But she would not answer questions today as to whether she'd be interviewed by the FBI.

Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein's office confirms that the FBI contacted her about stock sales her husband made earlier this year.

Coming up: The numbers do not add up -- what the Kremlin is claiming about the coronavirus death toll in Russia vs. the reality.

That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our world today: The Russian government is reportedly grossly under-reporting coronavirus deaths, according to several media reports.

Russia right now is the country with the second highest number of coronavirus cases, only behind the United States, but, in Moscow, the hardest-hit city, mortality rates are unusually, suspiciously low.

[16:50:02]

As CNN's Matthew Chance reports, this could be because of the way the Russians are doing the counting.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Across Russia, it's become a common sight, victims of this awful pandemic buried by masked figures in hazmat suits, as the bereaved watch helplessly from a safe distance.

But one of the most pressing questions has been why, with the second highest number of coronavirus infections in the world, has the death toll in Russia been so low, just a fraction of other badly affected states?

We now know one factor may be the way Russia counts its dead. Health authorities in Moscow, the epicenter of the outbreak, have now acknowledged as much, saying up to 60 percent of suspected coronavirus deaths have been listed as other causes, like heart failure, stage four cancers and other incurable diseases.

Only deaths directly linked by autopsy to coronavirus, it says, are registered as pandemic fatalities. For months, critics have accused the Kremlin of a nationwide cover-up and of silencing attempts to expose the grim reality of the pandemic, especially by medical workers at the front line.

"Doctors are contacting us from hospitals where people with the coronavirus are actually being sent," she says. "But instead of honestly saying this, the authorities are calling them patients with pneumonia and acute respiratory viral infections."

Recent data indicating sharp rises in April deaths has fueled suspicions. But health officials deny manipulating the numbers.

The country's deputy prime minister offering a clinical explanation by videoconference.

TATYANA GOLIKOVA, DEPUTY RUSSIAN PRIME MINISTER (through translator): I would like to point out that a decrease in pneumonia among the affected, almost nine-fold between the onset of the illness to hospitalization, allowed us to have low mortality rates in Russia, which today are 7.4 times lower than the world average.

CHANCE: Russian health officials say their methods are unlike other countries and describe their numbers as exceptionally precise.

Few doubt that is at least partly true.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHANCE: Well, Jake, it's a debate that's being had in other countries too. How many people are dying of this virus, as opposed to with it?

Well, in Russia, perhaps to allay public concern, they're taking the strictest possible definition about who dies with this disease and who does not -- back to you.

TAPPER: All right, Matthew Chance, thank you so much.

Coming up next: a robot on patrol in a park. We will show you the new high-tech ways to stop this virus.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:57:28]

TAPPER: Thermal camera testing at Los Angeles International Airport, possible contract tracing -- contact tracing on your cell phone, even Operation Warp Speed, the president's effort to speed up vaccine development.

As CNN's Tom Foreman reports, the world is leaning on science and technology to get us through this pandemic.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBOT VOICE: Let's keep Singapore healthy.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At a park in Singapore, Spot is on patrol. The semiautonomous robot developed in the United States wanders around counting people and giving friendly reminders.

ROBOT VOICE: Please stand at least one meter apart.

FOREMAN: From space, where satellites are recording the impact of the virus on human movement, to phone apps meant to trace the contacts of infected people, to the quest for a cure, scientists and engineers are fighting COVID-19 at every turn.

And for celebrity scientists Bill Nye, that's a good sign.

BILL NYE, THE SCIENCE GUY: We absolutely have the science and technology to address this virus.

FOREMAN: But there are big challenges, first figuring out what really works.

Remote temperature sensors, for example, have become all the rage to try and spot virus carriers. A leading manufacturer, FLIR, reports $100 million worth of new orders, even though the company explicitly says its product is not really intended to detect people with the virus.

Second, focus. Public health experts fear all the scattered efforts to bring science and technology to bear will be significantly diminished if they are not coordinated with overarching plans for testing, tracing and treatment.

NYE: You can't address a virus that can cross state borders at the speed of the wind without having a national or indeed international program. FOREMAN: And, third, time. For all the promises science offers, no

large-scale solutions are expected quickly, especially when it comes to a vaccine. At best, it might be months.

Just as likely:

NYE: It's two years, everybody, two years before a vaccine is...

FOREMAN (on camera): Even with all the technology we have now?

NYE: Yes, I think two years to get something that people trust.

FOREMAN (voice-over): Until then, the research, the waiting and the robot war on COVID-19 will go on.

ROBOT VOICE: Gatherings at this park are not allowed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOREMAN: Make no mistake. Around the world, around the clock, scientists and engineers are battling with this virus. And they are winning many of these battles.

There's a lot of comfort in that, even as this greater war against it goes on and on -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Tom Foreman, thank you so much for that piece. We appreciate it.

Our coverage on CNN continues right now. Stay healthy.

[17:00:00]