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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump's 2020 Strategy?; Interview With Sen. Tim Scott (R-SC). Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired June 12, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:07]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

And we begin today with the politics lead.

As Americans confront and in some cases try to correct this nation's past and current racial injustices, a number of President Trump's advisers are encouraging him to change his tone to meet the moment and improve his political standing, CNN has learned.

But President Trump remains convinced, sources say, that the culture wars he has continually stoked, whether defending Army bases named for Confederate generals or NFL players protesting police brutality by kneeling during the national anthem, making them enemies, are a winning political strategy for him, sources say.

Astoundingly, in the last few hours, when a FOX anchor noted to the president that his first comes the looting, then comes the shooting language originated from a racist Miami police chief in the 1960s, the president said he had actually taken it from former Philadelphia Police Commissioner and Mayor Frank Rizzo.

Rizzo, we should note, is an altogether different racist, one who once ran on a campaign slogan, "Vote White."

This afternoon, more policy changes that seem a direct result of the protests following the police killing of George Floyd.

New York Governor Andrew Cuomo today signing into law a package of 10 policing reform bills. And, in a moment, we're going to talk with Republican Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina. He is leading the effort for policing reform for Senate Republicans.

But, first, as CNN's Kaitlan Collins reports for us now, President Trump is digging in his heels on how he is handling the current unrest, even after FOX anchor Harris Faulkner politely confronted him on some of the divisive language he has used.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTER: Black lives matter! KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As public opinion shifts and calls for police reform grow, President Trump has remained an outlier in the national conversation following George Floyd's death.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You always have a bad apple. No matter where you go, you have bad apples. And they're not too many of them. And I can tell you, there are not too many of them in the police department.

COLLINS: A number of his advisers have encouraged him to change his tone to meet the moment, but Trump has instead relied on old instincts, as the rest of the country seems to move in another direction.

This week, NASCAR banned the Confederate Flag.

BUBBA WALLACE, NASCAR DRIVER: It's a symbol of hate, and it brings back so many bad memories, signs of oppression from way back when.

COLLINS: The NFL apologized to its players.

ROGER GOODELL, COMMISSIONER, NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE: We were wrong for not listening to NFL players earlier.

COLLINS: And even Trump's Republican allies recognize that the country is demanding action.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): Oh, absolutely I think it's important to have a response.

COLLINS: Yet the president still hasn't said which police reform measures he will back.

He told FOX News today that he's generally against police choke holds.

TRUMP: You got somebody in a choke hold, and what are you going to do now? Let go and say, oh, let's start all over again, I'm not allowed to have you in a choke hold? It's a tough situation.

COLLINS: Trump has repeatedly claimed he's done more for the black community than Abraham Lincoln.

TRUMP: He did good, although it's always questionable. In other words, the end result...

HARRIS FAULKNER, FOX NEWS: Well, we are free, Mr. President.

COLLINS: At times, the president has even seemed out of sync with some in his own administration.

One of the highest-ranking black officials, Surgeon General Jerome Adams, said he sees similarities between himself and George Floyd.

DR. JEROME ADAMS, SURGEON GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES: That could have been me. That could be me pulled over for speeding five miles over the speed limit. That could be me with a busted taillight. That could be me who is just seen as a black man, and not as the surgeon general of the United States.

COLLINS: And the controversy continues on his campaign's pick of Tulsa as his first rally site next week, a city known for a race massacre 99 years ago that left hundreds of black citizens dead. The rally is scheduled on the anniversary marking the end of slavery, which the press secretary said was meaningful to the president, though today he said that wasn't on purpose.

TRUMP: The fact that I'm having a rally on that day, you can really think about that very positively as celebration.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Now, Jake, tomorrow, the president is going to West Point to give a commencement address. It's going to look a lot different than in years past; 1,100 cadets, they're all going to be about six feet apart.

They have been quarantined for two weeks after they came back, and 16 of them tested positive for coronavirus, and family and friends are, of course, going to be watching from home.

Now, it's going to have a notable backdrop as well, where the president has had a pretty deep divide between himself and the Pentagon for the last two weeks.

TAPPER: All right, Kaitlan Collins at the White House, thank you so much for.

Joining me now is Republican Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina. He's the only black senator in the Republican Conference. He is leading his party's push on policing reform legislation.

Senator, thanks so much for joining us.

(CROSSTALK)

SEN. TIM SCOTT (R-SC): Jake, it's good to be with you.

TAPPER: Tell us, where do things stand on this legislation?

Where do things stand with this legislation and negotiations to get something passed? Where is the bill right now?

[16:05:00]

SCOTT: Well, the text is being finished today. I think we have had a lot of good conversations.

I looked at the House package, talked to my friends on the other side of the aisle, and worked on something that I think has a lot of synergy and a lot of overlap.

So, my hope is that, as I introduce it early next week, we will have an opportunity to have a real conversation about that. And I'm certain that we will have a shirts vs. skins kind of game.

And then, hopefully, we will come to the table and get something that will actually become law and reduce the number of unfortunate and unnecessary incidents, some that I have experienced personally, but certainly the ones that are even worse than the ones that I have experienced.

TAPPER: You have experienced what? You have talked about being pulled over for no reason before.

I know that, when you entered the Senate, there was a Capitol Hill policeman that didn't believe you were a senator. What are some of the other things that you have experienced?

SCOTT: Sure. Yes.

So, as an elected official on the Charleston County level, I was pulled over seven times while driving -- driving while black, surrounded by -- my car was surrounded by four different police cars.

Last year, I was pulled over. This year, I was pulled over for the failure to use my turn signal earlier in my lane change. There are probably 18 incidents that I could name over the last 22 years.

So, my experience with this, fortunately, did not lead to bodily harm. But the point is that this is something that is serious that happens to African-Americans all over the place, and something that we have a chance to reduce the unnecessary and oftentimes negative impact, and sometimes even deadly impact, that this is having within the community.

If we can do that together in a bipartisan fashion, in the same way that we responded to coronavirus, I'm hopeful that we will respond to police reform.

TAPPER: Where are some of the areas that there's overlap with your legislation in the Senate and the House Democrats' legislation? Where are they that you think you can agree and get something to the president's desk?

SCOTT: I think we both have a desire to see the choke hold used infinitely less. We take two different paths to get there. But that's one area.

I think the duty to intervene is something that we have in our legislation, watching the three officers stand there while the other one was on Mr. Floyd's neck. That's something that we should work on.

There's another part of it that deals with data and training, both really important parts. If I look at the House bill, there's a lot around de-escalation training. It's in our legislation as well. Use of force boards, that's a part of our bill. We do it differently. We want to study before we move into it. They want to move quickly into it.

I think it's important for us to have that conversation. But when you're that close from a beginning point in legislation, that means there is a really good chance that something good will come out of it.

We're distances away on the qualified immunity. That is something that there are members of my conference that want to have that conversation. That's the minority of my conference. I would say that the majority of their conference wants to have a conversation around qualified immunity.

How we deal with the no-knocks is a place where we both want to deal with it. We have two different ways, two different approaches to dealing with it, but a really important issue, if you look at Ms. Taylor's death in Louisiana (sic).

This is something that I talked specifically with Senator McConnell, the Kentucky senator, about bringing more attention and awareness to who's using it, when it's used, race, age, sex of the person it's served on. I think there's a lot of information that we don't have, because fewer than 40 percent of the law enforcement departments around the country actually are compelled to report information on the use of -- the use of force that leads to death or serious bodily injury.

So there are a lot of parts of the bills that I hope that we will be able and courageous enough to say, listen, this is not about me. It's not about Republicans. It's not about Democrats. It's, frankly, about saving lives. Let's get those seven or eight things that we have on the table that look similar, let's put them together, and get a package done before we head out of here.

If that happens, I think the American people will celebrate a bipartisan, frankly, nonpartisan approach to an issue that is vexing our society every single day.

TAPPER: Yes, I know. And you and I have been talking about these issues for a long time. I think your first interview on this show four years ago was about body cameras.

SCOTT: Thank you.

TAPPER: Let me ask you just -- you talk about all the incidents that you have experienced in your life, and, thankfully, none of them have turned out to -- in tragedy or even violence.

Do you think that racism is a systemic problem in law enforcement?

SCOTT: Yes, that's a tough question to answer.

I think the definition of systemic really does matter. The question is, is there a racial outcome in the issues or the incidents? Whether or not you believe that it is systemic, the answer is yes.

[16:10:05]

The definition of systemic or institutional racism is just -- there's so many different definitions. I don't jump there first.

I will say that, without any question, that, as I view the records, as I think it through, if an African-American has 2.5 times more chance of being killed by the police than a white person does, I'm not sure whether that speaks to systemic racism. It certainly speaks to a racial outcome that can be reduced significantly.

And so what I try to do is look for ways to actually get the outcome that reduces the number of incidents, so that people have more confidence in the institutions that have authority and power. Nothing more powerful than a weapon pointed at you. Therefore, if we can reduce the number of incidents, we actually increase the chances that our country comes together and has more respect and appreciation for institutions of authority.

TAPPER: There's another issue that's been bubbling up in the U.S. Senate and around the country that has to do with historical legacies of racism.

So far, you have stayed neutral on this issue of renaming the 10 U.S. military bases which bear the names of Confederate generals. I guess, in one case, it's a colonel.

Fort Gordon is named after someone who was likely the head of the Georgia Ku Klux Klan. General David Petraeus writes about the namesake for Fort Benning, that it's Henry Benning, was a Confederate general who was such an enthusiast for slavery that, as early as 1849, he argued for the dissolution of the Union and the formation of a Southern slavocracy.

I could go on and on, but I will spare you the details of all 10.

But the Republican-controlled Senate Armed Services Committee has already said that these 10 bases should be named. Surely, you have an opinion on this?

SCOTT: Well, I didn't say I didn't have an opinion. I just haven't really heard it until yesterday. And so I assumed that you would ask this question.

I talked to the members of the Armed Services Committee. And the NDAA does in fact want to study the issue and come to a conclusion on what to do next. That is something, I think, that we will see what the outcome is on that, I assume, within the next several months.

I know that the other side wanted to, I think, study the issue and then come to the conclusion very quickly on what to do with it, as -- I'm sure there's a deeper question as it relates to the symbols and to the renaming of bases.

I will say that our nation struggles with a lot of issues. Perhaps the most important issues I want to figure out how to solve is, how do you close the racial divide? How do we create more wealth in all communities? How do we increase the homeownership within the African- American community after the 2009 crash? How do we make sure that every kid in a public school in a poor zip code gets more funding for their schools and gets better outcomes?

Sure, I care about renaming bases, but I don't care enough about it to make it more important than those issues.

TAPPER: Do you think President Trump is able to rise to the moment of this leadership to bring the country together?

General Mattis recently said that President Trump seems focused on dividing the country and doesn't even pretend to try to unite us.

What do you think?

SCOTT: Well, I will say it, Jake, that my experience with the president on the issue of race is obviously very different than General Mattis' perspective on the divide in the country.

I will say, after Charlottesville, when I said the president compromised his moral authority with his reaction, we had the sit-down in the Oval Office, and out of that came Opportunity Zones. When I have criticized him on the comments about Baltimore or the Squad or other comments that I have critiqued him on, the one thing I can say about this president is, he actually has invited me to have a conversation about those issues.

And out of those conversations have come the record-breaking amount of funding for historically black colleges and universities, more focus on research for sickle cell anemia, Opportunity Zones, as I just mentioned, assistance for black farmers and heirs' property.

So, I can say that, as I have approached the president about the priorities that I think are necessary to really reduce that racial divide, the president keeps saying yes to it.

So, as someone who has benefited from being in a position to help people that I may never meet in generations that may not have been born yet, I will continue to work with the president. And, frankly, I have confidence that, when I have that conversation with the president, it seems to produce products that are in our best interest as a nation, and specifically moves the African-American community forward.

And, frankly, when I think about criminal justice reform, making up for the 1994 crime bill was a result of years of hard work and dedication to keeping the main thing the main thing. And I think that works for me.

It's been working pretty well for the outcomes for communities of color. Whether they like him or like me, the fact is that we're producing pretty good results right now, save some of the...

TAPPER: It's certainly a unique relationship.

SCOTT: I would say that the president's love language is not of words of -- words of encouragement.

[16:15:01]

I'm sorry, Jake? TAPPER: I was just going to say it's certainly a unique position that

you find yourself in. Best of luck with your legislation, Republican Senator Tim Scott. Thank you again, sir. Appreciate it.

SCOTT: Well, let's do it next week.

TAPPER: All right. Good.

Coming up, how voters are responding to President Trump's actions on the protests and the pandemic. We talk to some Republicans who supported President Trump but are rethinking that right now.

Plus, new today, a rare briefing from the Centers for Disease Control issuing new guidelines on what we should and should not be doing. We're going to talk to a former acting director of the CDC. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our health lead today, summer officially begins next week. But coronavirus will not be taking a summer vacation. Today, officials from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention warned that the coronavirus pandemic is far from over.

[16:20:04]

And the top Harvard doctor said the death toll in the United States could hit 200,000 by September.

As CNN's Nick Watt reports for us now, the recent rise in hospitalizations are the numbers that the country really needs to keep an eye on.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TEDROS ADHANOM GHEBREYESUS, DIRECTOR-GENERAL, WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION: We are truly concerned actually because the world is divided.

NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Today's message from the World Health Organization, we must all be in this together. And in a rare telephone briefing, the CDC laying out what individuals now should and shouldn't do.

DR. JAY BUTLER, CDC: The greater the number of people involved in the interaction, the higher the risk of COVID-19 spread.

WATT: Today in Houston, they're prepping to not reopen more businesses but maybe the field hospital at the Texans NRG Stadium. COVID-19 hospitalization rates in Texas just hit an all-time high.

JUDGE LINA HIDALGO, HARRIS COUNTY, TEXAS: I'm growing increasingly concerned that we may be approaching the precipice -- the precipice of a disaster.

WATT: Oregon and Utah have hit pause on re-opening following upticks these past couple of weeks.

DR. ASHISH JHA, DIRECTOR, HARVARD GLOBAL HEALTH INSTITUTE: If things continue on the current trend, we're going to lose 20,000 to 30,000 Americans a month. And nothing in the foreseeable future stops that unless we really do things differently.

WATT: The U.K.'s counts right now rising in 19 states. Florida's average new case count has about doubled since June 1st.

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R), FLORIDA: As you're testing more, you're going to find more cases.

WATT: But he admits there are new outbreaks in farming communities.

DR. AILEEN MARTY, INFECTIOUS DISEASE SPECIALIST, FLORIDA INTERNATIONAL UNIVERSITY: A small part of it is testing. But it truly is a real increase in cases. And part of that is because people are getting too close together without using their masks.

WATT: Meanwhile, some vaccine experts concerned that President Trump will speed up a vaccine for political purposes now asking the FDA to require at least 30,000 strong human trials before approval. And that promising vaccine being developed in Oxford, England, has now entered phase three with 42,000 subjects expected to take part.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everyone is waiting for a vaccine because it's clear that a vaccine would be the best way out of this pandemic.

WATT: Movie showings inside theaters and movie production can begin today here in Los Angeles. Missouri, scene with that infamous Memorial Day pool party, will lift all statewide restrictions next week.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WATT: And here are some of those new CDC guidelines for us all as we reopen.

If you're going to eat in a restaurant, try and sit outside. If you're going to have people to your home, try to sit outside. If you're going to exercise in the gym, no high-fives and crack a window. And if you're staying in a hotel, maybe take the stairs and not the elevator.

But, Jake, as they say themselves, these are not commands, these are just suggestions -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Nick, thank you so much.

Joining us now to discuss, Dr. Richard Besser, the former acting director of the CDC.

Dr. Besser, always good to see you.

On one hand, you have experts saying that the U.S. is nowhere close to being even ready to reduce the number of virus spread going on. On the other, you have governors saying that everything is under control.

Take a listen to some of these governors.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. DOUG DUCEY (R), ARIZONA: -- are well-prepared to manage an increase in patient volume.

GOV. HENRY MCMASTER (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: At this point, the answer is individual responsibility if not mandates by the government.

GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON (R), ARKANSAS: There is no correlation between the lifting of restrictions and the new cases that we have seen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Are you worried about that it's going to get much worse now that restrictions are being lifted and there isn't really the infrastructure for contact tracing that's going on?

DR. RICHARD BESSER, FORMER ACTING DIRECTOR, CDC: Well, you know, Jake, when you think about a pandemic, it's disease spreading around the globe, but it's an event that's occurring on its own time frame in different places. So, there are states that are seeing significant declines, that are doing very careful public health-driven steps to slowly reopen their economy and get people out during more activity. And that's a good thing. You want to see that.

But what really concerns me is states that are seeing an increase, that aren't doubling down on encouraging people to do the measures that public health has laid out that will reduce that risk -- you know, wearing masks, social distancing, hand washing. And my biggest concern is that the groups that have been hit hardest to date, so black Americans, Latino Americans, Native Americans, low-income Americans.

As the economy reopens, groups who are in most need of getting back to work are going to be out there. And if we're not having in place the measures to protect their health and everyone else's health, they're going to see the highest rates of death.

[16:25:06]

They're going to see the biggest impact of this. And we're going to see setbacks in these places that not only don't allow us to move forward with economic recovery. They move us back to where we were before.

TAPPER: Well, and that's the thing, the CDC said today that if cases in some states continue to go up dramatically like in we just showed Governor Ducey of Arizona and McMaster of South Carolina going --

BESSER: Yes.

TAPPER: Cases are going up a lot in those states, hospitalizations too. The CDC warning that more mitigation efforts such as what was implemented back in March might be needed again. Is it possible that some of these states are going to have to start reimposing stay-at- home orders because they're going about this re-opening in not a responsible way?

BESSER: Well, you know, I was so thrilled to see a press conference today by CDC to explain what they're talking about, because I have great concern that the messaging to date has been wrong. When you look at countries that have been successful like South Korea, it's not a linear move from phase one to phase two to phase three with each step continuing to open. You go from phase one to phase two, and then if there's a cluster or an outbreak, you say we're going to slow it down, restaurants are closed again.

It's a back and forth kind of move, because until there's a vaccine, the only tool we have are dialing up and dialing down these kind of steps. And if we're not collecting data by zip code in every particular neighborhood, we're not going to see these little clusters as they're occurring. And they're going to lead to larger outbreaks.

So, it's -- the messaging has to -- has to prepare people for the idea that it's not a one-way street. You know, we are early in the pandemic, and until there's a vaccine that effectively controls this or there's been enough disease in the community that it doesn't spread, we're going to have to look at increasing and decreasing these based on what's happening locally.

TAPPER: And speaking of messaging, we saw the president in Texas yesterday, a state where hospitalizations are rising, and the president and many of the politicians he met with there visibly not social distancing, not wearing masks.

Are you concerned about that kind of messaging?

BESSER: I am really concerned. You have to have political leaders and public health leaders reinforcing the same messaging. So, CDC today put out some excellent guidance about mass gatherings. And the big takeaway is they don't recommend them if they're indoor. For outdoor there are things you can do in terms of the number of people in spacing. But even with those, there's risk.

And so, you know, when things are necessary, that's one thing. But you don't want to do things that don't have to be done that increase risk for individuals. And that's very concerning, because, you know, everyone wants to get people back to work.

The economic toll of this has been profound, particularly in marginalized groups. But if you don't follow the public health road map on this, you're not going to have that sustained recovery. You're not going to have consumers who feel comfortable going out and spending their money.

You know, it's all part of the same system. And you can't see a disconnect between the two if we're going to be successful.

TAPPER: All right, Dr. Richard Besser, always good to have y on. Thank you so much.

And the "Sesame Street" crew is back on CNN for a new family town hall about coronavirus and staying safe this summer. You can see "The ABCs of COVID-19" tomorrow at 10:00 a.m.

Some Republicans in a key battleground state say that they are now rethinking their support for the man they voted for in 2016. We'll explain why next.

Stay with us.

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