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The Lead with Jake Tapper

President Trump Set to Hold Campaign Event in Arizona; Will Europe Ban U.S. Travelers Over Coronavirus?; Interview With Sen. Richard Durbin (D-IL). Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired June 23, 2020 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: In our politics lead today, Senate Democrats are poised to block a policing reform bill being introduced by Senate Republican.

Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer calling the Republican proposal -- quote -- "not salvageable" because it does not go far enough in eliminating the use of neck restraints, no-knock warrants, and immunity protections for police.

A groundswell of bipartisan support for policing reform as a general concept emerged in the weeks after George Floyd's killing by a white Minneapolis cop.

Joining me now from Capitol Hill is Senate Minority Whip Dick Durbin, Democrat of Illinois.

Senator Durbin, thanks so much for joining us.

Republican Senator John Cornyn said that Democrats are -- quote -- "completely insane" to block the debate. He suggested there may not be a path forward.

I guess the basic question I have is, why not just allow a vote to proceed with debate and have amendments, and then try to make the best legislation possible, so that it can go on to work -- be worked on in a conference committee with members of the House, which Speaker Pelosi, frankly, has suggested is what she wants?

SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D-IL): Jake, let me tell you, I have been in the Senate a few years, and I have worked on some major legislation, immigration reform, for example, the most important criminal justice reform bill over the last decade.

In each and every instance, we started off with a bipartisan group that came together and said, this is what we're going to stand for together. We're going to resist any debilitating amendments. We will decide whether an amendment is good or not good. We will go forward if we have to, do it alone if we have to.

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We do that and do it regularly. And it's the way you succeed in the United States Senate. But Mitch McConnell knows that.

And so what he's told us tomorrow, you get an up-and-down vote, Democrats, take it or leave it. You're either for change or against it, and we will give you one vote, and we're done.

That's not the way to approach it. It's the reason why every major civil rights group and police reform group in the United States opposes the Republican proposal and joins us in saying, we're not going to vote on a motion to proceed until we come together on a bipartisan basis and really chart a course that has a chance at success.

TAPPER: But McConnell is offering an opportunity to have amendments from Democrats and Republicans, right?

DURBIN: Let me tell you how that world works. It's called a tree.

For goodness' sakes, what's a tree got to do with a debate? Well, it's a tree of amendments. And McConnell fills the tree of amendments, and the next thing you know, there are no opportunities for anybody else's amendment.

Plus, we live in a 53-47 Senate. We don't have a majority, a bare majority, and couldn't come up with 60 unless a lot of Republicans joined us. He knows that. He's in charge of the floor. He decides what comes to the floor. He stops things on the floor.

So, we want to make sure that, if we're going to sit down and do this, we do it in good faith on a bipartisan basis.

TAPPER: The bill from Republican Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina makes lynching a federal crime. It's a Democratic measure, promotes de-escalation training for police.

It will study racial bias in policing. It pushes police to restrict neck restraints. It doesn't ban them, the way you want to, but it pushes to restrict them. It increases the use of police body cameras. It tracks the use of no-knock warrants, and it creates a database that tracks enhanced use of force.

Are you really suggesting that all that becoming law is worse than nothing becoming law?

DURBIN: Well, let me tell you, the way you have just described some of those things, I hardly recognize them.

Body cameras, for example? We say that we mandate body cameras and vehicle cameras. They say, we're going to provide you some money, police departments, if you would like to go ahead and use them, and can you send us assurances that you think it's a good idea?

That's a heck of a lot different than saying they're mandated, or you don't qualify for federal funds.

When it comes to the choke hold that killed some of the victims that we have seen recently, you look at the Republican language, it is a lot weaker than the Democratic language. And it really calls on the attorney general. How would you like to turn to him at this moment in history?

Calls on the attorney general to define what's excessive use of force. You can understand that there are some fundamental differences. And that's the reason why these police reform groups are on our side of the debate and not on the side of the Republicans.

TAPPER: You noted earlier that you're in a Senate that is controlled by Republicans.

In addition, the president of the United States is a Republican. Is it not just, as a matter of fact, of realpolitik, that the best chance there is of getting something signed by the president that would be an improvement on what we have now is just is to allow a debate, improve the bill as much as possible, it passes, maybe Democrats don't vote for it, but it passes, then the House Democrats and Senate Republicans get together, work on a conference bill, and get something to the president's desk?

Are you really saying that nothing happening, nothing is better than that?

DURBIN: No, I believe something that's bipartisan that is backed by the groups that truly want real change and real reform, something that can make a difference.

Let's get to the bottom line here. The bottom line is, after eight minutes and 46 seconds, America was changed. We saw what happened to George Floyd. America saw it. The world saw it. And we said, we're going to change this in America.

And the young people went out in the street in numbers I have never seen before and said to me, said, Mr. Senator, we don't want to live in the shadow of racism for the rest of our lives. Change it, and make real changes that make a difference.

And that's what we're determined to do, as Democrats. And some effort that doesn't achieve that, I'm not going to stand here and endorse and say, well, it's better than nothing.

This is an historic moment. Let's use it and make America a better country.

TAPPER: Everything that has happened in the country since George Floyd died -- and I agree with you, there's obviously more momentum for changes. The country's in the middle of a reckoning with racism.

But it didn't change the makeup of the Senate. It's still 53-47. And I guess I'm wondering, like, I mean...

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TAPPER: Yes, go ahead.

DURBIN: Jake, let me jump in here. Let me tell you, the polling shows that Republicans feel as intensely about this as Democrats. This isn't a Democrat-Republican breakdown. People across this country want real change.

Now, there may be a variation, a slight variation, but, overwhelmingly, people are calling for change that makes a difference. And for goodness' sakes, shouldn't we do it?

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You have to go back to the 1960s to see the Kerner Commission, a report on police violence, and you think to yourself, well, wait a minute, that was 60 years ago. We're still talking about it? Let's not wait another 60 years and hope for the best.

Let's seize this moment, when both political parties should be working together, because Republicans and Democrats and independents across America feel the same way, that real change is needed.

TAPPER: Is every Democrat in your caucus united behind this strategy?

DURBIN: I'm not sure every one of them is, but, overwhelmingly, they believe as we do, that we ought to stick with the civil rights groups, we ought to stick with groups that truly want real police reform, and vote down the motion to proceed.

Mitch McConnell knows that, as soon as that is defeated, if it is defeated, we can move immediately to bipartisan consideration. That's what our leader, Chuck Schumer, and Cory Booker and Kamala Harris have asked for.

These are things -- the way that you do things in the Senate if you really want meaningful change to happen.

TAPPER: Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois, thank you so much for your time, sir. We always appreciate it.

DURBIN: Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: As coronavirus cases surge in the U.S., a top medical expert says he would rather vacation in Rome than in Phoenix, Arizona, this summer.

I will talk to him about what Italy and other countries got right that we are not in the United States.

That's next.

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TAPPER: Breaking news in our health lead today.

The European Union is considering blocking American visitors due to the recent uptick in cases in the U.S., according to two E.U. diplomats. Europe has seen a steady decrease in cases as countries there continue to reopen.

Italy today recording its lowest number of new coronavirus cases since March. It was March when Italian hospitals began to overflow. Some doctors having to decide who would live and who would die because of the shortage of ventilators.

And the entire country was on lockdown at that point. They have since, Italy, turned a corner, at least for now.

And yet, here in the United States, at least 10 states have seen their highest average number of cases over the last week.

So, what are other countries doing right that the United States is not currently?

Joining me now to discuss is director of Harvard's Global Health Institute, Dr. Ashish Jha.

Dr. Jha, you were quoted in Politico saying you would rather spend the summer in Rome with your family than in Phoenix, given the current state of this pandemic. Explain why.

DR. ASHISH JHA, DIRECTOR, HARVARD GLOBAL HEALTH INSTITUTE: Yes, so, Jake, thanks for having me on.

We actually had been earlier, before the pandemic, thinking about heading to the Southwest for part of our summer vacation. But, of course, everything is now in disarray.

And as I was speaking to that journalist and I was thinking about where America is vs. where Italy is, Italy was the cautionary tale, the country to avoid, because they did such a bad job of initially responding. And yet they have really brought their virus levels way, way down, whereas we in the United States largely have not.

And, obviously, places like Arizona are in particular trouble. So, just from a safety and health point of view, it's much safer to be in Rome right now than it is to be in Phoenix.

TAPPER: What did they do in Italy that we are not doing in Arizona or Texas or California?

JHA: Well, very simply, they took the virus seriously.

Again, they initially didn't, but then, once they got serious, they locked down, and then they stayed locked down for an extended period of time, until the case numbers dropped substantially, whereas what we did was, we did lock down for a little while.

And then, in a lot of states, while the case numbers were still quite high and not dropping, we opened up again, and we just didn't let the data drive our decision-making. I think we kind of lost energy and got tired of being locked down, which I understand, but now we're paying the price for that.

TAPPER: And what's your reaction to the news that the E.U., the European Union, is now considering blocking American visitors because of the surge in cases here? Is that a justified move by the E.U.?

JHA: Well, we are the hot spot of the world right now.

Along with Brazil and Russia, we're the three countries that are really generating the most number of new infections and cases, obviously not two other countries that I want our country to be lumped in with. But we're doing a pretty abysmal job as a nation.

And so I understand why the E.U. is doing it. Obviously, I wish they wouldn't. But if they're trying to prevent infections coming into their countries, America is going to be one of the top places that other countries are going to look to block in order to keep themselves safe.

TAPPER: If President Trump tomorrow said, OK, Doc, you're in charge, unlimited funding, you can do whatever you want, help us get control of this, what would you do?

JHA: Yes, you know, this is not rocket science.

Like, the first thing I would do -- and, again, we're going to need the help of governors, but I think most governors would be enthusiastic about trying to be helpful -- is, I think we need mandated mask rules and laws about people when they're outside, when they're in indoor buildings, public spaces, they need to be wearing masks.

I would make sure that we have a certain amount of social distancing, meaning no nightclubs, no packed bars, no packed restaurants, certainly not in places where there's any level of a viral outbreak going on.

And then, last, I would substantially ramp up testing and tracing. These are the three things that Germany has used, that other countries have used, and they're open, they're much more open than us, and they're not seeing the kind of outbreaks that we're having.

This is the same list we have been saying for weeks and months. We just don't seem to have the political will or interest to try to actually implement it.

TAPPER: Well, that's just my question. I guess that's my next question, is, why not?

I mean, there was there was a move -- obviously, from -- if you listen to Dr. Fauci and you listen to Dr. Birx, they're in favor of doing what you're talking about.

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But President Trump, it seems, has just decided that this is over, and he just wants to go back to normal, and that we could just act as if everything's fine, and maybe it will just all go away.

JHA: Right. So what we know is that it will not all go away. And I understand the

fatigue. And I understand a lot of people wanting to put it behind us. We don't, unfortunately, get to decide when we put the pandemic behind us. The pandemic decides when it's over.

And we have got to deal with the reality at hand. Like, this is about being an adult. Like, you don't just get to ignore something in front of you because you don't like it anymore or you're tired of it.

And I don't completely understand why our federal government feels to me like it is giving up on the pandemic, and letting states and cities all figure it out on their own, which is going to be very hard for us to be able to fight a pandemic this way.

TAPPER: And just lastly, I mean, I just find it amazing that the United States has a population of about 4 or 5 percent of the world's population is in the United States. But we have roughly a quarter, 25 percent, of the world's coronavirus deaths, if you go by official figures.

And, obviously, who knows what you can trust coming from China. But, I mean, that just seems to me like just numerically, empirically, a huge failure by our leaders.

JHA: Yes, I think there is pretty broad consensus in the public health community, not just here, but around the world, that America is on track to have the worst performance of any high-income country.

We might look good by comparison to places like Brazil and Russia. But compared to the countries we generally like to compare ourselves, to France, Germany, Spain, the Scandinavian countries, other European nations, Japan, other East Asian countries, we're going to end up looking probably at the bottom of that list.

We can still turn this around, right? Like, we still have all the capability to turn this around, but we're going to have to decide as a country we want to. And if we do, we can get our economy back and we can save lives.

TAPPER: It reminds me of a message I got on Facebook from a viewer abroad, saying, tell people in Hollywood to stop making movies where the United States saves the rest of the world.

Dr. Ashish Jha, thank you so much for your time and your candor today. We appreciate it.

JHA: Thanks.

TAPPER: President Trump is about to hold a campaign event in Phoenix, where coronavirus cases are skyrocketing, sadly. We're on the ground there next.

Stay with us.

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TAPPER: President Trump is in Arizona right now, where any moment he will address thousands of students at the Dream City Church. It doesn't look like there's much social distancing going on there.

Arizona is a key battleground state, with 11 electoral votes up for grabs. It's also a major coronavirus hot spot, regrettably. Today, state health officials announced a record 3,591 new cases, as well as 42 deaths in the last day.

CNN's Ryan Nobles is in Phoenix at the church.

Ryan, what do we know about this address and the types of precautions being taken, if any?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this address, Jake, is going to be President Trump specifically reaching out to young voters. This is a group of students for Trump, and he's going to try and focus his message to that particular group of people and get them enthusiastic behind his campaign.

But in terms of the planning to prevent coronavirus precautions and the spread of the disease, there isn't much of any. Almost no one in this auditorium, aside from those of us on the press riser, are wearing masks.

There were no temperature checks on their way in and almost little to no social distancing taking place. And, as you mentioned, this is at a time where those coronavirus numbers are on the rise here in Phoenix.

And we should also keep in mind that there is an ordinance that says, if you're inside and within six feet of someone else, you should have a mask on. And everyone in this room is basically ignoring that ordinance -- Jake.

TAPPER: And, Ryan, President Trump won Arizona in 2016 by about 3.5 percent. It's no coincidence that he's there four-and-a-half months before the election, right?

NOBLES: No, not at all, Jake.

This is a state that Republicans really feel they have to win. It's also an example of how President Trump is forced to play defense to try and hold onto these seats that he won back in 2016, as opposed to playing offense and trying to win seats that Hillary Clinton won.

They know this is important. Polls for him at this point have been less than encouraging. It's one of the reasons he's here today, and it's one of the reasons he's going to spend a lot of time here as we get ahead to the general election.

TAPPER: All right, President Trump filling another packed auditorium with people, not adhering to the CDC guidelines.

Ryan Nobles, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

And breaking news this afternoon in our politics lead.

A deputy to former special counsel Robert Mueller now says that Roger Stone got special treatment because he was friends with the president.

Aaron Zelinsky says the -- quote -- "highest levels" of the Justice Department politicized the sentencing of a longtime Trump ally, Mr. Stone, this according to Zelinsky's prepared congressional testimony, which was just released this afternoon.

Stone was sentenced to more than three years in prison for lying to Congress and threatening a witness. Prosecutors had wanted to sentence him seven to nine years in prison, but Attorney General Barr overrode that after the president tweeted that the original recommendation was -- quote -- "very unfair."

We're going to go dig into this and much more in our upcoming CNN special report called "Trump & the Law: After Impeachment." That documentary airs 10:00 p.m. Eastern on Sunday, only on CNN.

Thanks for watching us today.

Our coverage on CNN continues right now. I will see you tomorrow.

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