Return to Transcripts main page

The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump Attacks Birx After She Said Virus is "Widespread" in U.S.; Stimulus Negotiations in a "Bad Place" Despite Optimistic Talk. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired August 03, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: And welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Pamela Brown, in today for Jake Tapper.

And we begin with the health lead, as the nation nears five million confirmed cases of coronavirus, with more than 150,000 deaths, the World Health Organization warning today that there is no silver bullet in this pandemic, and there may never be.

One top official leading the coronavirus response for the organization is saying that everyone is feeling the fatigue of this pandemic, but -- quote -- "We have a long way to go."

That reality, as the CDC projects there could be up to 27,000 more people killed before the end of this month.

And, as CNN's Sara Sidner reports, Dr. Deborah Birx is telling CNN the virus is more widespread now in the U.S. than ever before.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TEDROS ADHANOM GHEBREYESUS, DIRECTOR GENERAL, WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION: It will be felt for decades to come.

SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The head of the World Health Organization predicting the effects of the coronavirus pandemic will last for decades.

GHEBREYESUS: Not only on the health aspect, but on social, economic, and political.

SIDNER: The coronavirus is still spreading out of control in parts of the United States, and death tolls are continuing to climb.

ADM. BRETT GIROIR, U.S. ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: We are very concerned, and this is a very serious point, and deaths will continue to increase for the next few weeks.

SIDNER: One reason why? The U.S. is in a new phase, according to the White House's point person on COVID response, Dr. Deborah Birx.

DR. DEBORAH BIRX, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS RESPONSE COORDINATOR: What we're seeing today is different from March and April. It is extraordinarily widespread. It's into the rural as equal urban areas. And to everybody who lives in a rural area, you are not immune or protected from this virus.

SIDNER: The numbers back that up, July's total new cases more than double that of any other previous month, the hot spots mostly flaring up in the South and West, Mississippi now the highest percentage of positive COVID-19 cases in the country, with a staggering 21 percent positivity rate. South Carolina follows with 18 percent, as Isaias, now a hurricane, threatens its shores.

In Florida, the storm's winds forced some testing sites to close for a bit, creating a drop in confirmed cases, those sites now back open.

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): We are encouraged by some of the trends we're seeing. We continue to see a downward trend in visits to the emergency department.

SIDNER: Still, Florida is on the verge of hitting 500,000 confirmed coronavirus infections. California, with nearly double Florida's population, has already surpassed that terrible milestone.

Despite that and a state orders shutting down bars three weeks ago, in Los Angeles, dozens attended a party thrown for first responders without masks or physical distancing.

Across America, schools are beginning to open up now, Indiana and Georgia already seeing coronavirus infections, forcing some students to return to virtual learning next week.

BIRX: We're asking people to distance-learn at this moment, so we can get this epidemic under control.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER: And we are learning just how deadly the coronavirus has become across the world.

The top epidemiologists at the WHO saying that COVID-19 kills about point 0.6 percent of all patients. Now, that might sound like a very small number, 0.6 percent, but if you take into account that that number means the coronavirus is six times more deadly than the seasonal flu -- Pam.

BROWN: That is frightening. Thank you so much, Sara.

And I want to discuss all of this with CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Great to see you. So much to discuss here.

And I want to start with what we heard from Deborah Birx, saying that the U.S. is in this new phase of the pandemic. You have been analyzing all of the reams of data coming in since February. What makes this phase new and different, in your view, in a nutshell? DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, when this started, this was primarily on the coasts, this COVID -- these COVID new infections, in Washington state, California, New York, big airports, people coming in from overseas. And now it's started to spread.

We have seen it in the South, obviously, where I am in Georgia, Florida, Texas, Arizona. But it's mainly been in very populated cities, even within those states. And now you're starting to see it spread more into the rural areas, and significantly.

I mean, the graph tells the story, right? The question is, are all these waves going to come down and stay down? Or are they going to keep having this sort of roller-coaster effect in different parts of the country at different times?

BROWN: Right.

And we heard from Dr. Birx about this idea that the U.S. has hit this reset on the pandemic five to six weeks ago. It's hard to imagine that, when you look at graphs like that, Dr. Gupta. Have you seen evidence that there has been this reset? If so, is another reset necessary?

GUPTA: Well, I don't really -- I heard that comment, and I wasn't quite sure what she meant.

Certainly, five to six weeks ago, there was a sustained sort of effort in the South, in Arizona and Texas and Florida, to really start to try and bring these numbers down in those places.

[16:05:07]

But, if by reset, you mean, hey, look, now we have a problem over here, a fire over here, we're going to go put that fire out, and now there's another fire over here, so we're going to go put that out, I mean that's kind of what's happening. That's not a strategy, right?

That's just sort of putting pressure on bleeding spots, without actually addressing the underlying problem. So, it's not really a reset, as much as doing what has to be done.

BROWN: All right, so let's talk about the big picture here, because the president's health experts are adamant wearing masks, social distancing, basic hygiene will control this pandemic, will help bring it under control.

GUPTA: Yes.

BROWN: But there is no consistent message from the president about these mitigation steps, no message of unity, rallying the country to come together.

The president seems singularly focused on treatment and a vaccine. Do you think he should be more focused on both?

GUPTA: Yes, absolutely.

I mean, a treatment and vaccine is maybe a bit spot story in all of this, and that's happening. But it's not here yet.

BROWN: But that's months away, a vaccine is.

GUPTA: It's months away.

And so -- but the other measures, Pamela -- you got to keep in mind that there's no country in the world that has a vaccine, no country that has a magic therapeutic, and yet they have done much, much better, many of them, than we have, and with the strategies you just mentioned.

In fact, I would go so far as to say, for the next three weeks, we wore masks, we went outside, if we avoided large gatherings, avoided bars, restaurants, things like that, kept physical distance and washed hands, which sounds silly, right, so simple, if we did that for three weeks as a nation, I guarantee you, Pamela, we'd be having a very different conversation 21 days from now, because the curves would all come down.

BROWN: OK, so we have seen this president say, look, it's up to the states. I'm not going to impose a federal mandate on mask wearing.

But do you think this state-by-state approach is, in essence, enabling the virus, rather than containing it?

GUPTA: Yes, I think absolutely.

And to add on to that, I mean, there is a right, scientifically-based answer here, right? Handling it state by state, based on what? If they're all basing it on science, then fine. But there is a right answer, the things that I just mentioned, because we have real world evidence that they have worked in other countries.

So whether it's a states issue or a federal issue, the point is that this isn't -- there's not a lot of subjectivity here. There is the right thing to do. And there's a lot of states that aren't doing it.

BROWN: And like you said, I mean, you look at the numbers, the U.S. has one of the worst outbreaks out of the 50 most populous countries in the world.

So you have to take a step back and say, OK, we're six months into this. What more can we do? Now you have this issue of returning to school that's on every parent's mind, teacher's mind, student's mind, my mind, your mind.

In Georgia's Gwinnett County, more than 250 employees are not working after testing positive or being exposed. The school year has barely begun. We're seeing outbreaks in Indiana and other states.

What's your takeaway here?

GUPTA: I'm with you in terms of this is topic number one, right, in our, in our household. I have three girls, 11, 13 and 15.

I think it's an exercise probably in futility. I mean, it's a very contagious virus. Where I live, the numbers have been going up. I think just -- I think people are going to do their best efforts. But I think you're going to run into situations where you could have a super-spreader event, as we probably saw in Gwinnett at and Camp High Harbour, which you may be familiar with.

A -- 240 kids get infected there as well. So it's going to be tough. I think there's going to be these stutter starts, where maybe they start, but then they have to go back to virtual learning pretty quickly.

BROWN: Yes. I mean, as a parent myself, I'm still not sure what I'm going to do next month, when my son's supposed to go to school. It's just hard to know.

And it seems like the data in terms of kids transmitting the virus isn't really ironclad. There's still a lot of open questions, right, because some studies have come out -- or at least one has come out saying that they hold more of the virus in their noses than adults.

I mean, what are parents supposed to think right now?

GUPTA: Well, I think, if the kids are 10 and older, the data is clearer, at least, I would say.

BROWN: From the South Korea study, right?

GUPTA: From the South Korea study, exactly. And, basically, the bottom line was, they were transmitting as much as adults.

I will tell you this. We don't know about kids younger than that, in large part because, if you think about, they really haven't been out of the house much. They don't have a lot of contacts to trace younger kids since mid-March. So we don't have good data.

But, typically, little kids are the ones who actually spread these viruses. Think about your little kids. They're always -- they always have some sort of respiratory virus. They're more likely to spread.

I don't know that this will be different, but we just don't have the data yet to say, how much do they spread? We know they don't get as sick, but they could still spread it a lot.

BROWN: Right. It's hard when all the kids have been staying at home for the most part. It's a very different situation when you put them in together in school.

GUPTA: That's right.

BROWN: And so we just don't have a clear picture in terms of what would happen then.

And before we end, Sanjay, I want to go into some of your reporting and analysis on people who may have built-in protection against coronavirus because of what's known as T-cells. Explain.

[16:10:08]

GUPTA: Yes, this is fascinating, and maybe some good news.

Basically, they found in this study where they looked at people who were they were trying to find antibodies in their blood after they recovered from coronavirus. They wanted to compare it to people who'd never been exposed.

So they found blood from samples back dating to 2015. And even within those old blood samples, they found that those blood samples had T- cell reactivity. It's not antibodies, per se, but it's another part of the immune system that was very reactive to the coronavirus, suggesting there was some recognition of this virus.

What they propose is that there's other coronaviruses out there, and because of exposure to those common cold sort of coronaviruses, people might have some native immunity to this. It's very early science, but if it's true, that could provide some additional immunity for the world.

So we will have to wait and see.

BROWN: Absolutely.

Well, it's encouraging, nonetheless.

GUPTA: Yes.

BROWN: And we will take any encouraging news we can get right now.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you so much.

GUPTA: You got it.

BROWN: And coming up: As the pandemic continues to spiral out of control in the U.S., President Trump just attacked Dr. Fauci, and now he's targeting another member of his task force.

Plus: an anti-mask couple changing their minds, as a nearby store owner says, take them off.

We're unmasking the debate up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:15:44]

BROWN: Turning to our politics lead now. President Trump with sharp words for Dr. Deborah Birx after she told CNN the pandemic is, quote, extraordinarily widespread in the U.S. Well, now the president is accusing her of, quote, taking the bait and called her pathetic.

And as CNN's Kaitlan Collins reports, this comes after House Speaker Pelosi said she didn't have confidence in Dr. Birx's handling of the pandemic.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Trump is lashing out at one of his top health experts today. But this time, it's not Dr. Anthony Fauci he's criticizing. It's Dr. Deborah Birx after she made this warning on CNN.

DR. DEBORAH BIRX, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS RESPONSE COORDINATOR: What we're seeing today is different from March and April. It is extraordinarily widespread.

COLLINS: Trump called that answer from Dr. Deborah Birx pathetic and claimed that she took the bait and hit us because House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said repeatedly that she had no confidence in Birx.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I don't have confidence in anyone who stands there while the president says swallow Lysol and is going to cure your virus. It'll kill you and you won't have the virus anymore.

COLLINS: Pelosi had also criticized Birx for not being forthcoming enough and enabling Trump's misinformation. Criticisms that Birx pushed back on.

BIRX: I have never been called Pollyannaish or nonscientific or non- data driven. And I will stake my 40-year career on those fundamental principles.

COLLINS: This is the first time Trump has attacked Birx publicly, and it came after his own staff spent the weekend accusing Pelosi of attempting to undermine her, which they said was deeply irresponsible and, quote, just wrong.

Birx is far from the only health official the president is contradicting. Yesterday, his testing chief said it was time to move on from hydroxychloroquine because enough studies had shown it wasn't effective.

ADM. BRETT GIROIR, MD, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS TASK FORCE MEMBER: The evidence just doesn't show that hydroxychloroquine side effective right now. I think we need to move on from that and talk about what is effective.

COLLINS: But Trump made clear today he's not ready to move on from the drug he's touted.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Hydroxy has tremendous support, but politically it's toxic because I supported it.

COLLINS: The president is pushing hydroxychloroquine again as CNN has learned the testing regimen has been amped up inside the West Wing. Staffers may now be randomly selected to undergo mandatory COVID-19 testing. Two weeks ago on July 19th, president Trump made this promise.

TRUMP: We're signing a health care plan within two weeks, a full and complete health care plan.

COLLINS: Despite that vow, it never happened and Trump has unveiled no new plan.

Aides have worried the move could hurt his campaign given how voters have prioritized health care. And his re-election effort is out with two new ads in states that the president needs to win today after briefly pausing to rethink their strategy.

The new ads hit former Vice President Joe Biden but make no mention of COVID-19.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Now, Pam, Biden is criticizing the president for going after his own health experts. He just tweeted: It's hard to believe that I has to be said, but he said if I'm elected president I will spend my Monday mornings working with our nation's top experts to control this virus, not insulting them on Twitter.

And we should note that talking about those new campaign ads from the Trump campaign during the month in July according to a database that tracks this, Pam, there was not a single Trump campaign ad that even mentioned the pandemic that's going on.

BROWN: All right, very important to point that out.

Kaitlan, thank you so much for that.

And meantime, let's go to Capitol Hill. That's where negotiators are back to work out this emergency aid package. Now, both sides are projecting a positive tone. But sources tell CNN the two camps are as far apart as they have ever been.

Reminder, there is so much at stake here. Last week, the $600 a week federal unemployment benefit that many Americans were using to pay bills and get by expired as did the temporary federal stop on evictions.

CNN's Phil Mattingly is live from Capitol Hill.

So, Phil, the big question, was this meeting today any more productive than the meeting on Saturday? Is there any hope right now?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I think there's hope because it's Capitol Hill and things can often come together quickly. The stakes, they're enormous.

[16:20:01]

And at this point in time, after this nearly two-hour meeting, the sixth meeting in the last week between the top Democratic negotiators and top White House negotiators, productive was about all they've got. Both Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Democratic Leader Chuck Schumer said they are still a ways away one some of these -- the biggest most important issues. They worked very hard and got in the weeds a little bit on education funding, which is obviously an enormous . But until they figure out, as you know, the federal unemployment benefit, states and local issues funding, there are just a myriad of issues right now where the two sides are very, very far apart, and obviously a very limited amount of time to try and reach a deal given the fact that real people with very real issues are hurting right now, Pamela.

BROWN: Americans are hurting watching this all play out. And then you have president Trump and the question is, what is his role in all of this? He was seen golfing over the weekend while his aides were on Capitol Hill working on the deal. What is he doing to bridge the gap here?

MATTINGLY: It's unclear. You know, it's kind of fascinating and this has actually been the case from really every single one of the coronavirus response packages where the president has not had a very hands-on role. He hasn't spoken to Speaker Nancy Pelosi in months I'm told. Certainly hasn't been involved in negotiations with the speaker in a very long time, leaves that up to his top lieutenants.

And Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin made clear, they brief the president after each of these meetings and the president has taken on more of a harsher tone than the deal-making tone. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: What Chuck Schumer wants more than anybody, and I would say Nancy Pelosi would be second, they want to bail out cities and states that have done a bad job over a long period of time, nothing to do with coronavirus or China virus or whatever you want to call it. They want to bail out cities. They want bailout money.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: And, Pamela, he's talking about funding for states and localities and that is a huge issue between Democrats and Republicans. Democrats have asked for nearly a trillion dollars to fund states and localities. Republicans have said the money you got in the first package was enough. The president weighing in with his opinion.

The question now is, does that opinion help bridge the divide? And it certainly doesn't seem like it -- Pamela.

BROWN: Certainly doesn't.

All right. Phil Mattingly, stay on top of it. You're doing a great job there on Capitol Hill. Thanks so much.

And coming up, as nations around the world have flattened the curve, the author of the new report "How the pandemic defeated America" joins me with his findings, up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:26:58]

BROWN: Turning to our health lead now, it is called "How the pandemic defeated America. And it's an in-depth new report in "The Atlantic." More than 100 experts were interviewed to find out why this coronavirus is hitting America so much harder than most other countries.

So the article lays out how nearly everything that could have gone wrong did. Hospitals were unprepared -- underprepared. Public health teams were underfunded. And systemic racism left people of color more vulnerable to the virus.

But it also points to one other glaring issue: inaction by President Trump and the federal government, especially in those early days, noting, quote, America first was America oblivious.

Joining me now is Ed Yong, a staff writer at "The Atlantic" and the author of this piece.

And I read every page of your article and it is so insightful, Ed, on so many different levels. Just really peeling back the layers of how we got to this point six months into this pandemic and having one of the worst outbreaks out of the 50 most populous countries in the world.

And an epidemiologist at Harvard Medical School told you this. Quote, the U.S. fundamentally failed in ways that were worse than I could have ever imagined.

How did one of the wealthiest countries in the world get here, Ed?

ED YONG, STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: It's a good question. It's one I've been trying to answer for months now. I think so many vulnerabilities contributed to America's poor performance here.

Obviously, a poor federal response was part of that. Trump and his administration have ignored and dismissed experts for the entirety of their time in power. They have not listened to sound advice. They have promoted misinformation.

And it should be no surprise that they failed to take count of any of the warnings early on during this pandemic, allowing the virus to spread through the country. But that virus then found prisons that were overstocked with people. Nursing homes that were understaffed and underfunded. Public health -- public health departments that have been underfunded for decades. Hospitals that were stretched thin and exorbitant amounts of money was spent but for very little reward.

And it's inequalities you spoke of, the legacy of America's racism and colonialism that left people from indigenous and black and brown communities disproportionately affected by this virus. There are so many historical things that have come to roost right now.

BROWN: Absolutely. And like you said, this pandemic has been both tragedy and teacher. And I think it's causing a lot of us to step back and say, OK, what is it about our history that we need to do a better job on moving forward? What can we learn from this?

And one of the glaring issues you laid out in your piece was looking at the hospitals. And one doctor told you that hospitals are prepared for trauma like mass shootings or hurricanes but not a pandemic. Why is that?

[16:30:00]