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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump in Denial Over Coronavirus Pandemic? Interview With Former U.S. Surgeon General Dr. Vivek Murthy. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired August 05, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Yet a source telling CNN that President Trump is still struggling to grasp the severity of the pandemic. The source said -- quote -- "He does not get it."

Globally, about one person is dying from coronavirus every 15 seconds. That's according to CNN's calculations.

And, as CNN's Athena Jones reports, the U.S. just marked one of the deadliest days of the summer.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NIAID DIRECTOR: I mean, the numbers don't lie.

ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): America's top infectious disease expert with a stark diagnosis six months into the pandemic.

FAUCI: When you look at the number of infections and the number of deaths, it really is quite, quite concerning.

JONES: But Dr. Anthony Fauci has some good news, especially for those who don't want to go back into quarantine.

FAUCI: We can do much better without locking down. And I think that that strange binary approach that either you lock down or you let it all fly, there's someplace in the middle when we can open the economy.

JONES: That assessment coming as the state-by-state picture is mixed, at best, new coronavirus infections steady or falling in most states, but daily death counts still rising in 22 states, hitting 1, 399 nationwide on Tuesday, the second highest one-day death toll reported this summer.

DR. THOMAS FRIEDEN, FORMER DIRECTOR, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION: The virus is winning and the American people are losing. And we need to focus on what's happening.

JONES: Hawaii reporting its highest seven-day average for new daily cases at 119, up some 146 percent from the previous week, Florida seeing its seven-day average for new infections drop by nearly a quarter, even as it becomes the second state to pass the half-a- million case mark.

With infections raging across much of the country, New York City, where a fifth of all the new COVID-19 cases have been traced to other states, announcing quarantine checkpoints starting today for vehicles coming from states on the Tristate's areas quarantine list, with fines of up to $10,000.

BILL DE BLASIO (D), MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY, NY: This is serious stuff. And it's time for everyone to realize it.

JONES: Meanwhile, a confident prediction from the president.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Vaccines and therapeutics are coming along incredibly well. And we're going to have one, I believe, long before the end of the year.

JONES: But while experts within his administration believe that swift timeline may be wishful thinking...

FAUCI: Somewhere towards the end of the year, the beginning of 2021, we will know whether we have a safe and effective vaccine.

JONES:... there is promising news on the vaccine front.

ALEX AZAR, U.S. HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: The United States now has six vaccines that we have placed major investments in. Four of them have already reported out positive phase one clinical trial results. And two of them are already in the advanced final phase three studies.

JONES: The Health and Human Services Department reaching a $1 billion deal with Johnson & Johnson to buy at least 100 million doses of its investigational COVID-19 vaccine, and pharmaceutical company Moderna setting a price tag of under $40 a dose for its vaccine, which still must complete phase three clinical trials.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JONES: And one more thing about schools that could give officials and families and really everybody pause. A new study finds that COVID-19 rates are significantly higher in minority children.

Out of 1,000 patients tested at Children's National Hospital in Washington, just over 7 percent of white children tested positive, compared to 30 percent of black children and just over 46 percent of Hispanic children -- Pamela.

BROWN: That is very troubling. Thank you so much, Athena Jones.

And joining me now to further discuss all of this is Dr. Vivek Murthy, a former U.S. surgeon general in the Obama administration.

Great to see you.

I want to get straight to what Dr. Fauci said today that I thought was really interesting. He basically said, look, the fact that 40 percent of those who have the virus don't show symptoms hampers the messaging around this virus, which then hampers containing the virus.

Here's what he told me CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FAUCI: As long as you have any member of society, any demographic group who's not seriously trying to get to the endgame of suppressing this, it will continue to smolder and smolder and smolder.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So, given the reality, is there any hope, Dr. Murthy, that the smoldering could end, any hope for a unified response here?

DR. VIVEK MURTHY, FORMER U.S. SURGEON GENERAL: Well, Pam, it's good to be with you today.

I do think there's hope for a unified response. And I do think there's hope we can get this under control. But it will take what you alluded to, which is all of us acting together and recognizing that the question is not just how do we protect ourselves from severe infection, but it's, how do we also prevent ourselves from transmitting the virus to other people?

We know that many people get infected and have no symptoms. We also know that younger people, particularly children, can get the virus, but they are less likely to have symptoms. That doesn't mean they don't transmit it to other people. In fact, the more data we have tells us that asymptomatic transmission is happening, and it's dangerous.

[16:05:13]

We have addressed outbreaks and pandemics before in this country. We have come together in the face of adversity, particularly around health, but it requires us recognizing this is an all-in moment for America. We're not going to get there if everybody doesn't step up and do their part to reduce transmission.

BROWN: And yet there's not really an all-in message across the board on the federal level, it seems like, when it comes to masks and these other mitigation efforts.

And we heard Dr. Fauci say today that the U.S. can do much better in fighting the pandemic without completely shutting down. He said, look, you don't have to -- it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Do you agree that a lockdown, a complete lockdown is unnecessary?

MURTHY: I think it depends where you are in the country.

But where I do agree with Dr. Fauci is that this isn't a black-and- white situation. It's not a flip switch that you flip on and off. Instead, I would think of these measures that we have been talking about like a dial that you turn up, and then you turn down gradually. And what we need to do now is, there -- in some parts of the country

where there's rampant spread of the virus, where a lockdown may in fact be what is needed. In other parts, we may be able to suppress the virus if we are aggressive about mask mandates, about closing indoor dining and bars, about restricting crowd sizes, and encouraging people to observe hand hygiene measures.

And in other parts of the country where we actually have low levels of viral transmission, we may be able to resume a more normal phase of life. So, it depends on where you are in the country. But make no mistake, we have to err on the side of caution here, because what we saw in the spring was that we didn't shut down enough and we didn't do it for long enough.

And the result is, we saw a resurgence and infection. And we can't let that happen a second time around.

BROWN: But how concerning is it to you? I don't know if you listened to Dr. Fauci and Sanjay today, but Dr. Fauci was talking about how his family has received threats and how science is being politicized, how people are just discarding the science, the data, the numbers to back up what's actually going on here.

How concerning is that, in terms of trying to end this pandemic?

MURTHY: Well, it's deeply concerning, because what is going to get us through this pandemic is science, it's scientists, and it's people listening and taking their cues from science and scientists.

What isn't going to get us through this pandemic is polarization, is politicizing public health messages. And I think the fact that we have not seen, unfortunately, a unified approach to communicating about this virus, the fact that masks, for example, have become a political symbol to many (AUDIO GAP) hurt us.

And what I learned during my time serving as surgeon general, where we dealt with Zika and Ebola, is that you can have the best scientists, you can have the best science, but leadership also matters here. And you have got to have your leaders from across parties, across government, in the private sector speaking with one voice, putting science and scientists first, and leading by example when it comes to following safety measures like wearing masks.

BROWN: Well, I mean, you talk about wearing masks.

There was a study that came out that said, if 95 percent, I believe, of Americans wore masks, that that could save tens of thousands of lives over a few months.

I mean, that's remarkable. And you also talked about, look, in the past, the United States has been able to overcome pandemics. But this is -- this is a novel virus, right? We have never seen anything like this, even though it's in the family of coronavirus.

One of the tricky parts about this virus is that the fact that you have people who get it that are -- that don't have any symptoms. Then you have seemingly healthy Americans that die from this.

How can the U.S. get to the bottom of that? Is that something that is eventually knowable?

MURTHY: Well, there's -- you're absolutely right that we are learning each day about this virus, and there's still a lot we don't know.

But the good news is that we have learned a lot in the last several months. And what that has taught us is that, number one, while this is a new virus, that we do, in fact, know how to prevent its spread, and it's through the hand hygiene, the mask wearing, the avoidance of crowds.

We also know that indoor spaces are a setup for transmitting the virus. And so avoiding indoor spaces is especially important. And what we know is that we are going to need science and an investment in science to be able to develop a vaccine and therapeutics to ultimately help in the long run to keep this virus at acceptable levels.

The good news is, Pam, that we have got great candidates in the pipeline as far as vaccines are concerned. I'm optimistic we will have one. But we have to be very, very careful that we do not cut any corners in the creation and approval of these vaccines.

We have got to make sure the American people have a vaccine that's safe, that's effective, and available for them to use.

[16:10:01]

BROWN: And that's key.

But it's not so clear-cut in terms of, even if a vaccine becomes available, it's getting everyone on board to use the vaccine. It's figuring out how to distribute it.

And here's what Dr. Fauci said about developing a vaccine for all coronaviruses. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FAUCI: Instead of putting coronavirus on the back burner, why don't we try -- I say -- while I'm asking a question, I'm telling you we're definitely going to do it -- is to develop a universal coronavirus vaccine that has the specificity against all the coronaviruses, so we don't have to anticipate the next time this happens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: I actually -- I thought that was really interesting, because there's all this talk about how you have to have a certain vaccine if you're an older person vs. a younger person.

But he's basically saying they could develop one, potentially one vaccine that could treat all coronaviruses. How soon do you think that could happen? How realistic is that?

MURTHY: But I think that's an aspiration certainly worth pursuing.

And there have been discussions in -- with other viruses as well, with the influenza virus, of trying to, for example, develop a universal flu vaccine. We should be pursuing those long-term goals, while we are working on the shorter term of getting a vaccine candidate developed and available to the American people in the -- over the next year.

But this is the point, is that, when it comes to approaching these viruses, we have got to work in the short, medium and long term. That means that we have got to invest in the science, but it also means that, if we're not paying attention to how we communicate with the public about the science, we are going to run into a situation where many people may not have faith in the vaccine when it comes out.

What I was concerned about was a statistic that I saw recently from a poll showing that nearly 50 percent of people are saying that they are either -- decided they won't or uncertain they would take the vaccine if it was available today for COVID-19.

That's deeply concerning, but I think it speaks to what we need to do to not only ensure the process is trending apparent and that it's safe. But we also have to invest now in communicating with people consistently about what the science says, so people have sources that they can trust.

BROWN: Right.

And that is increasingly difficult, given how social media can be used as a weapon for disinformation campaigns. So, we're going to be tracking that all very closely.

Dr. Vivek Murthy, thank you so much for coming on.

MURTHY: Thank you so much, Pam. Take care.

BROWN: You too.

Well, the COVID impact on the conventions. Joe Biden just announced that he won't be attending the Democratic Convention in person, as President Trump makes a controversial proposal for the Republican Convention.

Also ahead, in one moment, a bride is posing pictures, as you see. The next, she is blown away by a massive explosion tearing through the city. We are live with the very latest on this mysterious blast.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:17:13]

BROWN: Turning to our politics lead now, Joe Biden is not traveling to Milwaukee to accept the Democratic nomination for president. The DNC says nearly its entire convention will be online now all because of coronavirus.

And today, President Trump said he's considering giving his Republican National Convention speech from the White House instead of North Carolina.

CNN White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins joins me live.

So, Kaitlan, we just heard from the president and he once again cast doubt on mail-in voting.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, this time he's in the Oval Office with the governor of Arizona, Doug Ducey. And the president was once again railing against mail-in voting, going from saying he didn't know anything about Arizona's own mail-in voting system to then moments later saying that he was going to endorse it. And he said he believes that there is going to be this widespread mail-in voting come November, that it would be a catastrophe.

I'm quoting him now. He said you'll never know who the winner is, but the winner is going to be me.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS (voice-over): Three months out from the election, President Trump is stepping up his attacks on mail-in voting amid concern from Republicans that he's discouraging his own party from casting their ballots.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's going to be months or years. They will never be able to tabulate their votes because they're not set up for it.

COLLINS: Election officials in many states are now encouraging voting by mail because of the pandemic. While Trump is baselessly claiming that the virus will subside in 90 days.

TRUMP: But by November 3rd, that's, you know, time-wise, that's eternity, frankly, as far as I'm concerned.

COLLINS: Trump's campaign and the Republican Party sued the state of Nevada today in an effort to block a new law that would send mail-in ballots to every registered voter.

TRUMP: So, Nevada, we're in court, we'll see how it works out.

COLLINS: In that lawsuit, Trump and the GOP claim that the new law, which is sponsored by Democrats, would inevitably result in voter fraud. The state's Democratic governor says otherwise.

GOV. STEVE SISOLAK (D-NV): Everybody is limited to voting one time. It's totally safe.

COLLINS: There is at least one state where the president thinks it's okay to vote by mail, Florida, which is widely seen as critical to his re-election and is the same state where he now votes by mail.

TRUMP: You can't do a mail-in vote. Now Florida's different in the sense that they had been doing it and they've had two very good governors, frankly.

COLLINS: After initially planning to do so in Florida, the president now says he may accept the Republican nomination from the White House.

TRUMP: And we're thinking about doing it from the White House because there's no movement. It's easy.

COLLINS: The suggestion that he would give a major political speech from the White House has prompted even the number two Senate Republican to ask, is that even legal? John Thune adding, I think anything you do on federal prompt would seem to be problematic.

[16:20:02]

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said she agrees.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: The state and local governments are suffering from the virus and the rest, and we're talking about whether he can have a political event at the White House. He can't.

COLLINS: Meanwhile, Democrats are dialing back their own convention plans after Joe Biden announced today that he'll accept his party's nomination remotely from Delaware instead of Milwaukee.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: And the president today was also talking about debating Joe Biden, Pam. We have now learned that the Trump campaign via Rudy Giuliani has sent a letter asking for a fourth debate with Joe Biden. Right now, there are three scheduled. But they say they want one earlier in September because they want to do it before voters start casting their ballots.

And they even suggested a list of potential moderators. Though it's not clear where this request is going to go.

BROWN: All right. We'll be talking that. Thanks so much, Kaitlan Collins.

Well, a single mother with two young children explains how each day that passes without Congress reaching a stimulus deal could be disastrous for her.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:25:48]

BROWN: Turning to our money lead now, White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows says he is doubtful they'll be able to reach a deal with Democrats on a new economic stimulus bill if negotiations aren't done within the next two days. A message echoed by a top Republican senator just moments ago.

But right now, millions of families who depend on unemployment are already trying to get by with less money. That extra $600 per week coming from the federal government did not get extended.

And now, people like my next guest, a single mother of two in Las Vegas are struggling to pay rent and other bills.

Joining me now is Melissa Davis.

And, Melissa, you have been directly impacted by this. You are one of the millions of Americans who is feeling the ripple effect of what's playing out right now and not receiving that extra $600 a week. First off, let's talk about your current situation, Melissa.

MELISSA DAVIS, SINGLE MOTHER IMPACTED BY HALT IN UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS: Hi. So, I've been back to work since Nevada reopened the restaurants. We're only at 50 percent capacity, and the bars aren't open right now. So me being a bartender, I've been basically doing tables, to-go orders and those types of things. I work in the morning.

And it's just hit or miss. Some weeks, you get one shift. Some weeks you get five. All the hours are cut. A lot of the staffings cut.

And they have a lot more people on because we have to take all these precautions to clean extra and sanitize everything after every guest gets up. So, it's been pretty tough.

BROWN: Right. And so how much do you make a week now going back on these limited hours?

DAVIS: So I make the minimum wage and Nevada's 9 right now. My tips vary. There are days I walk away with a hundred. There are days I walk away with 40. I've been lucky a few times and made over 200. But it just typically depends on how nice people are being that day.

BROWN: So on a good week you were making over 200 on tips you're saying?

DAVIS: Yes.

BROWN: And so you had been receiving that $600 a week from the federal government. How critical was that money for you?

DAVIS: It helped a lot. I had just moved into a new place. I am a single mother of two. I didn't have much saved because we just got a new place, put the deposits and all that down. And I didn't get my unemployment for at least five weeks after I applied.

So, I pretty much was scrambling by while I could.

BROWN: And when you say scrambling by, what does that look like, and how has that extra money, the $600 helped -- how did that help you get by during the difficult time?

DAVIS: So, on unemployment I only make 451 a week. That's before taxes. And with the extra 600, that put me over $1,050 with -- before taxes as well. I needed that to pay my rent with just the $450 alone, I can't get by paying -- that's not even enough to pay my rent for the month. Plus, all the utilities and everything else that comes with raising two children.

BROWN: OK. So, you're still -- you're still on unemployment then from what I gather, correct?

DAVIS: Partial. So I apply every week to keep my claim open. There's weeks I go over that 450 and I get nothing. There's weeks that I go under and they give me, you know, $100, maybe $200, whatever the difference is. So it kind of just depends on the week.

The last two weeks, I didn't receive any unemployment because they did put me a little bit over the $450.

BROWN: So it's basically week to week for you trying to juggle this. And you have two children.

DAVIS: Yeah.

BROWN: You know, I can't imagine just how difficult it is going through each day sort of not knowing what's to come. And it's interesting one of the sticking points on Capitol Hill is the extra $600 boost that you were getting that has ended. Republicans argue it could prevent people from going back to work because it's more than what they make normally.

What's your response to that?

DAVIS: I do agree with that partially. I personally have seen people who were making more money on unemployment than they were before the pandemic. People who make minimum wage work at McDonald's, places to that nature, they were making more on unemployment with the extra 600.

So I can see how people have lost the motivation to go back to work.

[16:30:00]