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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump Falsely Says Kids are "Almost Immune" to COVID-19; FDA Commissioner Denies Political Pressure Over COVID-19 Vaccine; Trump Claims Biden, A Devout Catholic, Wants to "Hurt God"; Schools Reopening; Ohio Governor Tests Positive For COVID-19. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired August 06, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Appreciate her being so real and so open and honest there.

And, Abby Phillip, appreciate you. Thank you very much.

Thanks for being with me. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

"THE LEAD" starts right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: And welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Pamela Brown, in for Jake Tapper.

And, today, the number of coronavirus cases is nearing five million in the United States. And one of those cases is now Ohio governor Mike DeWine, who just tested positive. He was not showing symptoms, but was scheduled to meet with President Trump.

The governor is at least the third person in just the last week to test positive, because they were tested before coming into contact with the president.

Yet, when it comes to the general public, President Trump has suggested the U.S. is testing too much. Dr. Anthony Fauci says testing in this country is still not where it needs to be.

And with deaths rising in at least 15 states, the CDC now projects there could be up to 20,000 more lives lost by the end of this month, as CNN's Athena Jones reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NIAID DIRECTOR: This is a predictor of trouble ahead.

ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A new warning for nine U.S. cities in California's Central Valley, where the rate of people testing positive for coronavirus is rising. FAUCI: It's a clear indication that you are getting an uptick in

cases, which inevitably, as we have seen in the Southern states, leads to surges, and then you get hospitalizations, and then you get deaths.

JONES: In a recording of a private phone call with state and local officials obtained by the Center for Public Integrity, the White House's Coronavirus Task Force coordinator, Dr. Deborah Birx, urging these areas to take measures to mitigate the spread, like avoiding crowds and using masks, arguing, data from previous hot spots show such measures work.

Still, far too many people haven't gotten the message.

LT. CHRIS RAMIREZ, LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT: When the officers arrived, they did notice large amounts of people on the roadway.

JONES: In Los Angeles, house parties like this one leading authorities to say they will start turning off power and water at places that hosts such functions, especially repeat offenders.

ERIC GARCETTI (D), MAYOR OF LOS ANGELES: These large house parties have essentially become nightclubs. Some research has shown that 10 percent of people cause 80 percent of the spread.

JONES: In a stunning move in the midst of a pandemic, the town of Sturgis, South Dakota, preparing to host a motorcycle rally expected to draw hundreds of thousands of people. No masks required.

MARK CARSTENSEN, MAYOR OF STURGIS, SOUTH DAKOTA: We want to stress personal responsibility to our visitors and our residents as this gathering moves forward.

JONES: New infections are steady or falling in all but three states. But with testing rates falling off, these positive trends likely don't show the whole picture.

Meanwhile, the number of daily deaths on the rise in 15 states and stubbornly high nationwide, averaging more than 1,000 a day for the past seven days.

The CDC today forecasting more than 20,000 additional U.S. deaths in just over the next three weeks. And as more schools reopen for in- person classes, cases of coronavirus are popping up daily.

DR. PETER HOTEZ, BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE: We're trying to open up schools in the middle of a raging forest fire in many parts of the country. And we can't do that.

JONES: Outbreaks in Georgia and Mississippi proof that in-person learning is risky in some places, which is why nearly seven million children will begin the year remotely.

FAUCI: You have got to say, try as best as you can to get the children back to school. But one size does not fit all.

(END VIDEOTAPE) JONES: And in a sign of just how out of control this virus remains in the United States, we just got a new estimate from an influential model at the University of Washington, now projecting that nearly 300,000 people will have died in America by December 1 -- Pamela.

BROWN: All right, Athena Jones, thank you for bringing us the latest there.

And I want to now bring in Dr. Sanjay Gupta to further discuss all of this.

And, first, I want to get to this breaking news that just came in, Sanjay, from IHME. This is a group of researchers behind this influential modeling at the University of Washington, projecting that there could be 300,000 deaths by December 1, if things do not turn around.

Of course, as we know, we have discussed models aren't always accurate. But what is the main takeaway for the American people? I mean, that is an eye-popping number.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, I think the main takeaway -- and this is a model, by the way, that the White House pays close attention to as well, as you know, Pamela.

I think the main takeaway is that the models, they take all the various data points. They're saying things are not going to get better. I mean, if you just do the math, you're talking about more than 1,000 people a day continuing to die for the rest of the year, which is sort of what we're at now.

That's what this model is starting to say. But it also says what you see on the screen, this model. They say, if you have national mask mandates, you would bring the number of people who would die during this time period down by about 70,000 people.

So they're starting to put definition around just the objective impact of masks. We know it's helpful, but they're saying, here's how helpful it could be.

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BROWN: And this is actually coming as these infectious disease experts banded together to send a letter to the vice president, Mike Pence, asking the White House to issue a federal mask mandate.

Right now, nearly 40 states, as we know, have some type of mask order in place. And then, when you think about mandating it at a federal level, Sanjay, what do you think the difference would make?

GUPTA: I think it would be considerable, Pam.

I wouldn't think of this in a linear fashion. Like, 40 out of 50 states means 80 percent sort of as good. The problem is, if you start to get these penetrations in areas where people aren't wearing masks, you get significant spreading events. People are still mobile, as you know, Pamela, this time of year around the country.

So I think that's why a national mask mandate that is enforced, that people actually do this, would probably make the biggest difference.

BROWN: So, let's talk about the point you just made, that, look, people are still mobile, they're getting out there.

When you look at the numbers, deaths are a lagging indicator. The hope is that people see those numbers as they go up, that people will take it more seriously. But how concerned are you about complacency right now, people having pandemic fatigue, wanting to go on vacation, vacation, be with their friends and family this time of year?

How concerning is that to you?

GUPTA: Well I mean, part of this is what we're reporting on, sort of nationally, but then also just anecdotally, where I live in Atlanta.

I mean, you do see this fatigue for certain, and some of the data bears that out. About 50 percent of the country right now, for example, is wearing masks. That gives you some indication that they may not be taking this as seriously as they should, or even as they once did.

So that's a concerning sort of point. But I also think the first point you made, these places, they have these terrible death counts, and then people start becoming cognizant of that. You would hate to think that we need to redline in all these places around the country before significant change is made.

Hopefully, we're learning some lessons that people can apply, even if they're not in the middle of a real crisis.

BROWN: Yes. And one of the big challenges right now is to get you young people to care, right? I mean, that -- they are such a crucial component in all of this, because even if they're not getting very sick, they can spread it very easily.

Dr. Fauci implored young people to not be a weak link in the chain of fighting this virus. And he gave this warning. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FAUCI: What we're seeing more and more of now are two things, young people who actually get a serious outcome of the disease itself, before they even recover and clear the virus.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So, how do you get young people to care more, Sanjay? Simple as that. What do you do?

GUPTA: Yes, this is a really interesting one, Pamela.

I will tell you, just -- and, again, this is part doctor and part journalist. But it is true that younger people are far less likely to get sick. So the idea that maybe they're not fearful of this is probably true. I mean, you hear the death statistics are thankfully very low among particularly young people.

But the idea that they could rise to this occasion, that they could be empathetic, that they wear a mask not to necessarily just protect themselves, but to protect others. And where's your empathy at a time like this?

I think -- I don't know. Maybe that's a stronger message. I don't know that fright and scaring people really works or certainly works long term. But this idea that these young people, I think, as Dr. Fauci was saying, could really rise to the occasion, within a few weeks of wearing a mask, we could be looking at the other side of this curve. They're all they're asking us.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: They have a lot of power, a lot of power, I would say.

GUPTA: A lot of power, yes.

BROWN: And then you have this news coming out today that Ohio Governor Mike DeWine tested positive, and only found out because he was tested before meeting the president.

What does that say about how many people are walking around with this virus and unknowingly spreading it? I mean, he likely wouldn't have gotten to test otherwise, I assume.

GUPTA: That's right. That's right.

I think that some estimates, which I think are very reasonable ones, say we're under counting tenfold. So, if you look at the side of the screen, you see whatever, close to five million infections. It could be 25, even 50, that.

But I think the interesting thing about Governor DeWine is just what you said, Pamela. We think of general testing in certain locations, mainly for people who have symptoms. Surveillance testing would be the kind of testing where you're randomly starting to surveil communities.

What Governor DeWine had was something called assurance testing, providing an assurance that he didn't have it because he was going to meet with the president. It is not impossible or inconceivable that we shouldn't all have assurance testing.

I mean, you would know before visiting your kids at school or visiting your family or whatever it might be. And they would know. That's the assurance testing. And that is not a fantasy. It still strikes me, seven months into this, we have not -- we can't even nearly achieve what Governor DeWine was able to achieve today.

BROWN: Yes, we certainly couldn't.

And to that point, the Ohio governor tested positive as part of this routine testing because he was going to be around the president. He's the third person in the last week who's tested positive because he was going to be around the president.

Yet the president downplays testing. Does this someone emphasize that it is -- that it is important, not just for the president's protection, but for everyone?

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GUPTA: That's right.

I mean, that's precisely the point. I mean, this type of testing, it seems this is -- seems so, so grand, because it's only being offered at the White House. It's only for the president.

The reality is that we could and should all have access to that sort of testing. I mean, people who are going back to work in crowded locations, sending our kids back to school, I mean, bus drivers and teachers would love to have some assurance that the kids that they're interacting with, who can spread this virus, aren't -- aren't infected.

We don't have that yet.

BROWN: Yes.

And let's talk about the schools, because that is still a very big talker. And you look at the numbers, nearly seven million kids will start the school year online; 62 of the nation's largest school districts are now going to all virtual learning. In 17, parents have to choose all in-person or online. Ten are hybrid.

Look, I'm a parent. I'm looking at this. It's just all kind of confusing.

GUPTA: It is confusing.

And as we have -- I think you and I have been saying all week, it's requiring all of us to become epidemiologists in a way and figure it out.

BROWN: Yes.

GUPTA: I will give you a couple of things I think are important. I think schools do need to have some of the basic infrastructure in place, which people can sort of guess by now. We could put a list up.

But they have to have the space to be able to actually create the physical distancing, masks within schools, which some districts aren't even mandating that. They have to be able to have hand hygiene and all the things that we have talked about.

But I think the larger issue, Pamela, still comes back to testing. What sort of testing is going to be available? And, very importantly, be very clear in the language about what happens if a kid tests positive. How is that going to be handled? Who are the close contacts? What's going to happen to the faculty member, teacher, whoever, all the -- bus driver, all of that? BROWN: Right.

GUPTA: I think it's going to be a lot of stutter-starting, Pamela.

I think for the remaining school districts that haven't gone virtual, you're going to see a start, stop, start, stop, and maybe just finally a stop.

BROWN: And then you look at other countries, like Israel, where they started, and then had to completely pull back because of what happened.

So, we will be keeping an eye on all of this as it plays out, as schools start to reopen around this time of year.

GUPTA: Yes.

BROWN: Sanjay, thank you so much. That was a great discussion.

GUPTA: You got it, Pam. Thank you. You too.

BROWN: And be sure to tune in tonight for our global CNN town hall, "Coronavirus: Facts and Fears," hosted by our very own Dr. Sanjay Gupta and Anderson Cooper. They will be joined by Olympic gold medalist Michael Phelps. That is right here on CNN at 8:00 p.m. Eastern time.

President Trump now says a key solution to the fight against the coronavirus could happen by Election Day. But his own scientists don't necessarily agree.

And then developing a successful coronavirus vaccine is only the first step -- a look at how a vaccine could be distributed across the country up next.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: What evidence have you seen about children being immune to the virus?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: All you have to do is read the newspapers or read the medical reports.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: In our politics lead, fallout from the president's false claims about coronavirus continue to spiral. When he told Fox News children were, quote, almost immune to the virus, they deleted the video from Trump's page and then Twitter temporarily suspended the Trump campaign's ability to tweet.

Now, as CNN's Jeremy Diamond reports, the president appears to be out of step with his own White House health experts on vaccines, forecasts, and more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Another day, another case of presidential coronavirus misinformation. Today, President Trump suggesting without any evidence that a vaccine could be ready by Election Day.

TRUMP: I'm optimistic that it will be probably around that date. I believe we'll have the vaccine before the end of the year, certainly, but around that date, yes, I think so.

DIAMOND: Contradicting government health experts who say a vaccine likely won't be ready until the end of the year at the earliest.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: My projection, which is only projection, somewhere towards the end of the year, the beginning of 2021, we will know whether we have a safe and effective vaccine.

DIAMOND: Trump's claim, the latest wishful thinking from a president who repeatedly made false and misleading statements about the pandemic.

TRUMP: It's going away. No, it will go away like things go away, absolutely. It's -- no doubt in my mind, it will go away.

DIAMOND: Dr. Fauci also contradicting that prediction.

FAUCI: As long as you have any member of society, any demographic group, who is not seriously trying to get to the end game of suppressing this, it will continue to smolder and smolder and smolder.

DIAMOND: And then there's the president's false claim about the coronavirus and children.

TRUMP: The fact is, that they are virtually immune from this problem, and we have to open our schools.

I'm talking about from getting very sick. Their immune systems are very, very strong, they're very powerful. And they -- they seem to be able to handle it very well.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I get the sense maybe the president doesn't know what the word immune means. Between 250,000 and 350,000 children have been infected by this virus.

DR. TOM FRIEDEN, FORMER CDC DIRECTOR: Children may be a little less likely to get infected and we don't know how likely they are to spread it to others, but they're not immune from the disease. No one who hasn't had it is immune from the disease.

DIAMOND: Facebook and Twitter removed the video of Trump's false claim about children to avoid spreading misinformation, with Twitter even briefly freezing the Trump campaign's Twitter account. As for the campaign, today, the Commission on Presidential Debates

rejecting Trump's request to schedule a fourth debate early next month writing three 90-minute debates work well to fulfill the voter education purposes the debates are intended to serve.

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And stating, they are committed to the schedule of debates it has planned.

Trump has claimed an earlier debate is needed because of early and mail-in voting this year.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Earlier today, President Trump made this wild accusation about former Vice President Joe Biden. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: He's going to do things that nobody ever would think even possible because he's following the radical left agenda. Take away your guns, destroy your Second Amendment. No religion, no anything. Hurt the bible, hurt God. He's against God, he's against guns.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Biden is a practicing Roman Catholic. What's the strategy here, Jeremy?

DIAMOND: Well, Pam, in recent weeks the president and his campaign have been trying to tie Joe Biden to the, quote/unquote, radical left and shore up support among the president's evangelical base. But like he often does, Pam, the president here appears to be overreaching making this bizarre claim that Joe Biden is against God, which frankly doesn't make any sense given the fact Joe Biden has talked publicly and knowledgably about his faith far more than the current president certainly has.

And the Biden campaign saying in a statement that Joe Biden's faith is at the core of who he is and they know it's been a source of strength and comfort in times of extreme hardship for the former vice president -- Pam.

BROWN: Yeah, I notice our Daniel Dale, our colleague, Jeremy, tweeted this picture of the campaign this actually photoshopped a picture of Biden praying yesterday, praying alone yesterday. They tweeted out this picture. Now, today, the president is saying he wants to hurt god.

All right. Jeremy Diamond, thank you for bringing us the very latest. We appreciate it.

And joining me now to discuss is co-director at center for vaccine development at Texas Children's Hospital, Dr. Peter Hotez. I'm so glad you're on, Dr. Hotez, because there's so much to discuss

as it pertains to vaccines. You know, we keep hearing the federal government is investing billions of dollars in several companies working on a vaccine. Help us understand how you expect this to all play out with all these different companies working on a vaccine.

DR. PETER HOTEZ, CO-DIRECTOR CENTER FOR VACCINE DEVELOPMENT AT TEXAS CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL: Well, the good news, Pamela, I'm pretty confident we'll have several COVID-19 vaccines that actually work against the infection or possibly reduced severity of illness instead and are safe. I say that with some confidence because we've been working on coronavirus vaccines for the past decade. We also have the COVID-19 vaccine that we're accelerating for global health purposes to distribute around the world.

And the reason is because it's not all that complicated in many ways. If you induced high levels of virus neutralizing antibody against the spike protein, you will get protective immunity. We showed this with the first SARS virus and then with the MERS coronavirus and I think we'll do it with this one. That's the good news.

The problem is that it takes time to show that these vaccines actually work in people, as they do in laboratory animals and they are safe. That's the part you can't accelerate. So, these vaccines are going into phase three trials now. The first one is Moderna vaccine, others will follow. Hopefully ours will be on the list as well.

And then over the course of the next year, we'll have -- accumulate enough data to show these vaccines work and are safe to get them certified by FDA and the VRPPAC committee and (AUDIO GAP) all the other regulatory mechanisms that we've carefully crafted over the years to assure the public that they're safe, and that's where the issue comes from.

BROWN: That's the key. But you said over the next year. How soon, then, do you think there will be enough safety data to back up a vaccine for it to be released to the public realistically?

HOTEZ: So there are different estimates. I tend to be on the more conservative side. I put it third quarter of 2021. We've heard Fauci say Q1, maybe Q2, if we split the difference, quarter two of 2021. And even then, that's a world land speed record. That's an incredibly aggressive time line.

But I think we can do it and show safety and efficacy.

BROWN: And today, the FDA commissioner, Dr. Steven Hahn, he addressed concerns, this idea that there could be political pressure affecting the vaccine procedure. This is what he wrote in "The Washington Post."

He said, quote, I've repeatedly said all FDA decisions have been and will continue to be based solely on good science and data. The public can count on that commitment.

[16:25:01]

But we've seen the president routinely dismiss science and data along the way as it pertains to coronavirus.

Could the White House overrule the FDA to get a vaccine ready by election, by the election?

HOTEZ: You know, I don't think so. I mean, there's a possibility they can try. I don't think they will do that.

When the president talks about vaccines ready before the election, if you listen to the way the president speaks or the nonscientists in the White House speak, they very much think of this as a manufacturing problem. They kind of talk about vaccines in the same context they will talk about making ventilators or making diagnostic kits. That's kind of their understanding.

So, yes, I think we could have several of these vaccines manufactured at scale before the end of 2020, but I don't see a path by which we can know these vaccines are safe and actually work until quite a bit later.

And, you know, there's a celebrated op-ed piece by Paul Offit who's called the October surprise, saying that the president -- they try to pull a fast one and get it out sooner, I don't see that happening. The scientists have the power and the ability to draw the line, and our regulatory systems are robust.

BROWN: Yeah, you can't short change safety when it comes to something as important as this.

All right. Thank you so much. Dr. Peter Hotez, we appreciate it.

HOTEZ: Thank you.

BROWN: Well, putting food on the table is getting a lot harder for millions of Americans, as we get a big sign from Capitol Hill that help may not be on the way. That's next.

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