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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Cuomo: All New York School Districts Are Authorized to Open; Data Shows Stricter Measures in Arizona are Working, but Experts Warn the State is Not in the Clear. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired August 07, 2020 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DR. ASHISH JHA, DIRECTOR, HARVARD GLOBAL HEALTH INSTITUTE: So, I think there are a lot of 5 and 6 and 7-year-olds who can wear a mask for a good chunk of the day and we should try to do that.

[16:30:08]

And I think that given the cost of keeping everybody at home for the whole next year, New York -- places like New York should really be giving it a shot in trying to get kids back in.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: So, let's talk about the overall risk to kids because that is obviously a very hot topic. President Trump once again stressed that children don't face the same issues with coronavirus as adults. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Very young children are incredibly powerful. They're much stronger than all of us when it comes to the immune system. It's an incredible thing to see.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: OK. So let's put this in perspective. According to the WHO, the proportion of reported cases in very young children and babies has increased sevenfold since February. Now the president's aides say, look, he's trying to make the case that kids are less susceptible. But give us the reality, if you would, Dr. Jha.

JHA: Absolutely.

So, here's what we know. We certainly know that young kids are -- or just children in general, are less likely to get very, very sick from the virus. So that is an important thing that we do know.

We don't have evidence that they're necessarily much less likely to get infected. And there is some evidence that the younger kids are less likely to transmit, but even that evidence isn't so great.

But the only other point I would raise is that schools aren't run by kids alone. It turns out, you need adults, teachers, staff. So, we have to look at the whole picture, not just the children and try to think about, can we open up schools safely?

BROWN: Well, right, and you've got teachers and parents. But really quick on that, you said -- there are studies that show they're less likely to transmit. But then aren't there -- isn't there another study that shows they have more of the viral load in their noses? So, what does that mean?

JHA: Yeah. So, look, we don't have anything definitive here. When I look at all of the studies and put it together --

BROWN: That's the bottom line.

JHA: Yeah, the bottom line is I think younger kids are probably less likely to transmit. But they transmit enough that we still have to take it seriously.

BROWN: All right, Dr. Ashish Jha, thank you so much for coming on.

JHA: Thank you.

BROWN: Well, Arizona has been hard hit by coronavirus ranking number two in the country for the number of cases per capita. But after imposing new restrictions, the number of new infections in Arizona are declining -- though as CNN's Miguel Marquez reports, it doesn't mean the state is in the clear.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Arizona at a crossroads, cases decreasing but still a lot of virus out there. Just in time for high season in the desert.

WILL HUMBLE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, ARIZONA PUBLIC HEALTH ASSOCIATION: We've got to get our act in order now to prepare for the fall when the winter visitors return, when the cold and flu season returns.

MARQUEZ: In addition, some 70,000 students will soon return to Arizona state university, tens of thousands more to universities statewide. And many K-12 schools are expected to begin soon offering at least limited in-person instruction. Arizona in a race to tame its outbreak.

HUMBLE: To think that this virus is in control, I think is a mistake and I've heard people say that.

MARQUEZ: The state's positivity rate has dropped from more than 27 percent in July to just over 16 percent now. Guidelines for fully re- opening schools here say the positivity rate, among other factors, should be at 5 percent or lower on a two-week rolling average.

MAYOR REGINA ROMERO (D), TUCSON, ARIZONA: When Governor Ducey decided to open up the state, we were at 18 cases per day.

MARQUEZ (on camera): In -- in this?

ROMERO: In Pima County. MARQUEZ: Right.

ROMERO: Yesterday, we had 283 cases. And that's a good day.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): Like all local officials, Tucson's mayor was barred in May and early June from issuing mask orders. Arizona's governor reversed himself on June 17th, reimposed restrictions on businesses and allowed localities to require masks in public.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, MEMBER, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS TASK FORCE: We saw in Arizona, which was a good example, they went up and they started to really clamp down and do things right. And the cases came right down.

MARQUEZ: But Arizona has a long way to go. Before re-opening, Arizona's daily case count was in the hundreds. By July 1st, it was nearly 5,000 new cases every day.

Today, the state is seeing about 1,500 cases daily.

Much of the spread attributed to the state's re-opening too aggressively. Even some business owners agree.

LEON ESPINOZA, OWNER, ESPO'S MEXICAN FOOD: It went crazy. It was as if they declared that the pandemic was over.

MARQUEZ: Espo's has dished up Mexican food for 56 years. Its owner, Leon Espinoza, shut his own restaurant down until the spread of the virus slowed.

ESPINOZA: Took on this big financial hit so that we could concentrate on being safe. Our health and well-being is the foremost important thing here at the business.

MARQUEZ: The Grand Canyon state learning that lesson the hard way.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUEZ: Now, Arizona has another issue right now, and that is that the number of people seeking out tests has declined markedly over the last several weeks.

[16:35:05]

That's because the time to get those results back was, in some cases, two weeks or more. Arizona State University researchers think that there's about 1 to 2 percent of the population here, 150,000 people have the virus, may be asymptomatic, don't know that they have it, and they really want to try to get to those people and understand where the virus is. They know there's a lot out there.

But at this point the people getting tested, those rates are coming down, which is a little disturbing to public health officials here -- Pamela.

BROWN: All right. Thank you so much, Miguel. We appreciate it.

Well, my next guest got coronavirus back in March. Months later, she is still back and forth to the doctor.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:40:07]

BROWN: Well, 32-year-old Melanie Montano was one of almost 5 million people in the nation diagnosed with COVID-19. Get this. It has been more than 140 days since she first got sick. And she is still suffering from effects of this virus.

A former teacher, her days are now filled with doctors' appointments and blood work and naps to deal with the fatigue.

Melanie Montano joins me now to talk about all of this.

Wow, Melanie. What a journey it's been for you. You became sick back in March. How are you feeling today?

MELANIE MONTANO, BATTLING SYMPTOMS OF CORONAVIRUS FOR 140+ DAYS: Today I feel pretty -- I feel good. I've been making progress.

BROWN: And what does "good" mean in your world now?

MONTANO: I know, that's pretty true. Good as in I'm awake. I did not need a ten-hour nap today, which is awesome.

It's day by day because of the chronic fatigue is something that weighs so heavily upon my lifestyle. So -- but I have my sense of smell back and taste, which is pretty wonderful. It's the little things.

BROWN: So, how are your days -- how are your days different now since you have been battling COVID and the aftermath from before?

MONTANO: Oh, I mean, the days have been a lot easier in terms of having more energy to get laundry done or do things that seem kind of simple or minute to most people. But it allows me to -- now I don't have to do laundry without my inhaler or I'm not so dependent upon just baby steps and just walking from here to the bathroom, here to the kitchen.

So, a normal routine for everyone's daily life for me is something now that I'm really relishing. And so, that's --

BROWN: But let's look at the big picture because we were talking during the break you were working out with a physical trainer and you were doing all kinds of things. And now doing laundry's a big step for you, right?

MONTANO: Oh, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. But the thing is that's the problem. There's not enough attention that's being brought to these kind of aftermath effects, these lingering long-haul symptoms that so many of us seem to be experiencing. And so that's generally why we're trying to kind of bridge this gap of knowledge in between where, you know, Fauci obviously is advocating for certain protocol.

But we have to really kind of get every state on board in order for this to be something that we can crush prior to the New Year.

BROWN: And Dr. Fauci's talked about chronic fatigue syndrome as something that can happen to people after they deal with COVID. But your doctors haven't officially diagnosed you with that. Is that correct?

MONTANO: That's correct. They're not really making any official diagnosis simply because everything is still so new, and we're trying to learn a little bit more about this virus every single day. So, I found a new doctor, a new primary care doctor that was a little bit more lined with what I was looking for in terms of empathy and a little bit more compassion, and understanding.

And me being able to advocate for my own body and knowing, okay, something is off, and he was wonderful. So I'm quite pleased with that. But he also doesn't know.

BROWN: Yeah.

MONTANO: So, come September, I have to make multiple specialist appointments just to tackle certain issues.

BROWN: And you really do -- you really have to be your own advocate when it comes to your health, to your body.

MONTANO: Of course.

BROWN: And you lost your job because of coronavirus. You know, also your health insurance.

How are you managing all of these new doctors appointments and everything that's coming along with this?

MONTANO: Dipping into my savings absolutely, which is -- it's very frustrating. And also, I've had to move back in with my mother. And, you know, to offset whatever apartment fees I have to worry about.

So there are just so many costs to consider between student loans, just car insurance payments, things that would never be an issue per se if I had a steady income. But it's been so overwhelming just wrapping my head around the entire process. So, I've been lucky to have my mother.

My 66-year-old mother has to baby me and help me throughout this. It's very -- it's hard to put her through that and hard to deal with that myself.

BROWN: It's hard all around. That overwhelming feeling is what millions of Americans are feeling right now, Melanie. So you are not alone. Thank you for coming on to share your story.

MONTANO: Of course. Thank you for having me.

BROWN: So we just heard Melanie's story. And, you know, when you look at what's going on across the country, there are millions of people suffering from the mental health effects of coronavirus isolation. [16:45:00]

Former first lady Michelle Obama is one of them. She reassured her Instagram followers, saying, she's doing just fine, after opening up about experiencing low-grade depression due to the pandemic and the political and racial divide.

Joining me now is Andrea Bonior, a clinical psychologist and author of the "Detox Your Thoughts."

Great to see you, Andrea.

Let's go to what Michelle Obama has said. This has been a really talk -- a real talker. She said: "The idea that what this country is going through shouldn't have any effect on us, that we should all just feel OK all the time, that just doesn't feel real to me. So I hope you all are allowing yourselves to feel whatever it is you're feeling."

Andrea, she makes such an important point that I think a lot of people can relate to right now. It's OK to feel kind of crummy.

ANDREA BONIOR, PROFESSOR OF PSYCHOLOGY, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Exactly. Those are such significant words, and I think it's so helpful to destigmatize, what she has said, because I think too often we get into this pattern of, oh, depression is this and normal is this.

In reality, it's all a spectrum. And, right now, so many of us are suffering in significant ways, that there is no label needed, because a lot of us that are even normal are really hurting pretty badly.

BROWN: And let's talk about tools to help people, because I personally -- I lost my mom in May, and I have been going through a hard time. I have been going to a therapist, and it's been really helpful for me.

But there's still a stigma around this idea of asking for help. And what do you do to encourage people who are going through such a tough time right now, struggling with all the uncertainty, the unknown? What do you advise them to do? What are the tools available to them?

BONIOR: Yes, it's so true that there's a stigma.

But I encourage people to think about their mental health as they would their physical health. You go to the dentist, you go to a specialist doctor if you have broken your leg, the same thing as when we need mental support.

But it's also important to take care of ourselves in those physical ways, because they tie in hand in hand, so making sure to get sleep, making sure to get time outside. The data is there that these two things alone significantly can help us deal with crisis situations.

BROWN: And, really quick, I don't know if this happens to you, but, sometimes, I wake up and I feel like this crushing anxiety and stress.

Just being in this pandemic right now, what do you advise people when you wake up in the morning just feel like, oh, my gosh, I cannot believe this is happening?

BONIOR: Yes, mornings are really tough for a lot of people.

So, first, think about controllability and predictability. What can I control today? Just because I don't know when this will end does not mean that it won't end. So, watch for catastrophizing thoughts.

And then also, too, I always encourage people to think about meaning, even in difficult times, when we can connect with a sense of purpose. What are our values here? What are we teaching our children or how are we helping our neighbors?

That can help us rise above the stress and connect with that greater sense of purpose and meaning.

BROWN: Yes, getting outside of ourselves, getting out of our head is so important.

Andrea Bonior, thank you so much. We appreciate it.

So, how much is postage for a political football? Why Democrats are demanding an investigation into the head of the post office -- up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:53:15]

BROWN: And we're back with our "Earth Matters" series.

Right now, the world is grappling with the deadly pandemic, as we all know. But experts are also warning of another looming crisis.

Businessman and philanthropist Bill Gates writing -- quote -- "If you want to understand the kind of damage that climate change will inflict, look at COVID-19 and spread the pain out over a much longer period of time."

CNN's Bill Weir takes a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL WEIR, CNN CLIMATE CHANGE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): We have two global emergencies caused by the tiniest of foes, one a virus unleashed from the wilderness and spread by people, the other caused by tiny molecules of heat-trapping pollution unleashed into the atmosphere by people.

So, with both coronavirus and the climate crisis, the ultimate number of lives lost will depend on the wisdom of people, for better or worse.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think we're doing very well.

MICHAEL E. MANN, DIRECTOR, PENN STATE EARTH SYSTEM SCIENCE CENTER: Take the hottest, the worst heat wave that you have ever experienced unbearable heat and humidity, we will call that summer.

WEIR: For Penn State's Michael Mann, the first lesson is that science denial is deadly.

MANN: I think there's enough resilience in the system that we can withstand one term, one four-year term of Donald Trump. I'm not sure we can withstand two.

WEIR: Every day, new data shows how the countries rallying around clear messages of sound science have much lower body counts and more resilient economies. Same rules apply when oceans rise, mountains burn, and economies shift.

Masks are teaching us that our personal choices can save or cost human lives. But individual behavior is not the ultimate cure, just like the way you parked your car during lockdown. You helped clear the air for a bit, but did nothing for the centuries' worth of carbon dioxide already smothering the planet, which will only get worse, until systems change.

[16:55:18]

DR. RENEE SALAS, HARVARD UNIVERSITY T.H. CHAN SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: I testify before you as a practicing emergency medicine doctor who is both on the front lines of the climate crisis and the COVID-19 pandemic.

WEIR: Congress heard socially distant testimony this week from doctors forced to battle COVID and heatstroke, as climate becomes a threat multiplier.

SALAS: I often feel like I'm putting a Band-Aid on a bullet wound, as I may be able to improve their symptoms, but then I send them back out my doors without having gone upstream to the root of the problem.

WEIR: Worried about a hurricane, Miami was forced to tear down vital virus testing centers. And with wildfire season under way in the West, we have no idea how many firefighters are infected.

TRUMP: Respirators, ventilators, all of the equipment, try getting it yourselves.

WEIR: And when President Trump forced American governors to bid against each other for basic supplies, we learned that the search for a vaccine or a climate treaty may be global, but, until they manifest, your chances of survival are local.

It's the wisdom of neighbors, mayors and Main Streets that will matter most. And maybe the hardest lesson is that new virus hot spots are caused by folks just itching to get back to the old normal. But virologists and climatologists agree, the old normal is exactly what got us here.

Bill Weir, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: Chilling.

Let's turn to our national lead. Election mail will not be slowed down. That is the promise made by the head of the Postal Service today. President Trump has repeatedly attacked mail-in voting. As we know, he's been claiming it could take years to get the election results.

But, despite those assurances, Democrats are now demanding an investigation into the Postal Service, given its new leader's relationship with President Trump, as CNN's Jessica Dean reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): More changes at the U.S. Postal Service. Under new leadership from Trump ally and donor Louis DeJoy, the U.S. Postal Service announced today it will be instituting a management hiring freeze and requesting future buyouts.

The moves are exactly the kind of thing Democrats on the Hill have asked the USPS not to do.

SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D-IL): I'm proud of our postal workers across America, but they have got a hand tied behind their back with this new leadership.

DEAN: Today, congressional Democrats, led by Senator Elizabeth Warren, called for the U.S. Postal Service inspector general to investigate operational changes at the USPS.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), MINORITY LEADER: We have little faith that they're not trying to politicize the post office.

DEAN: The USPS says the measures were to cut costs, but postal workers and unions claim it's led to a slowing of the mail and could potentially impact vote by mail in the fall, something the postmaster general denies.

LOUIS DEJOY, U.S. POSTMASTER GENERAL: Despite any assertions to the contrary, we are not slowing down election mail or any other mail.

DEAN: In their letter, the lawmakers say the Postal Service has become a political football and described the service's response to congressional requests as -- quote -- "seriously lacking."

They also want the I.G. to look into any business conflicts DeJoy may have. DeJoy took the helm of the Postal Service on June 15. He's the first postmaster general in decades to come to the job without any prior experience working within the U.S. Postal Service. He contributed about $1.2 million to the Trump Victory Fund dating back to August 2016, according to Federal Election Commission filings.

TRUMP: I can't imagine the post office could do it. All of a sudden, they're supposed to be dealing in millions of ballots.

DEAN: Financials filed earlier this year by DeJoy's wife, Aldona Wos, who was nominated to be ambassador to Canada, also show potential conflicts of interest, including a financial stake in UPS, a Postal Service competitor.

They also show tens of millions of dollars in income and assets derived from holdings in shipping logistics company XPO, which acquired DeJoy's former company in 2014. XPO is a current contractor for the U.S. Postal Service.

DeJoy responded to accusations of political influence for the first time publicly today.

DEJOY: While I certainly have a good relationship with the president of the United States, the notion that I would ever make decisions concerning the Postal Service at the direction of the president or anyone else in the administration is wholly off-base.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DEAN: A spokesperson for the U.S. Postal Service told me that DeJoy has followed all ethics requirements that are required for the postmaster general -- Pam.

BROWN: All right, thank you so much. We appreciate that.

Well, be sure to tune in to CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION" this Sunday, the guests, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, White House Economic Council Director Larry Kudlow, and Ohio Governor Mike DeWine.

That is Sunday morning at 9:00 a.m. and noon Eastern.

I'm Pamela Brown, in for Jake Tapper on this Friday.

Our coverage on CNN continues right now.

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