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The Lead with Jake Tapper

White House Fights Back Against GOP Criticism of Trump's Executive Actions; Duke Study Tests Effectiveness of 14 Different Masks; Trump Wants to Be Added to Mount Rushmore?; Schools Reopening/Closing Amid Coronavirus Outbreaks. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired August 10, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:02]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: It's now 9,204 people that have died just since the beginning of this month. As we mentioned, the numbers change minute by minute, hour by hour.

So, let's just put this in perspective. The U.S. now has more cases than the whole population of Ireland. The world is now poised to cross 20 million confirmed cases of coronavirus, as a new alarming report finds that more than 97,000 children in the United States alone tested positive for coronavirus just in the last two weeks of July.

So, that is a big increase there for children, a 40 percent increase in the number of child cases.

As CNN's Kyung Lah reports, it comes as some schools are beginning to hold in-person classes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As Florida teachers protest back-to-school in person, at least 12 counties in the Sunshine State returned to the classroom this week, nine of them with positivity rates higher than the CDC's recommended mark for reopening.

Next door, in Georgia, the governor today applauded its first week back to school in many counties.

GOV. BRIAN KEMP (R-GA): This week went real well, other than a couple virtual photos.

LAH: That's despite hundreds of public school students and faculty quarantined, testing positive after returning for in-person classes. That includes this high school northwest of Atlanta in this viral image, now temporarily moved to online learning after nine reported cases.

LISA MORGAN, PRESIDENT, GEORGIA ASSOCIATION OF EDUCATORS: Teachers throw themselves in front of bullets when there is an active shooter in the building. But, this time, we are being asked to potentially sacrifice not ourselves, but also our family. And that is the difference. LAH: The numbers paint a spark picture for the back-to-school season.

The American Academic of Pediatrics says nearly 100,000 children tested positive for COVID in the last two weeks of July, a 40 percent increase in child cases.

COVID continues to rise in these eight states in red, the death toll flat, the U.S. averaging 1,000 dying every day. In Illinois, cases are up sharply. Chicago's mayor closed a lakefront beach after seeing this packed area.

In Texas, where the state's positivity rate remains above 20 percent, some churches are now worshipping outdoors. And then there was the Sturgis, South Dakota, motorcycle rally, which brought about 250,000 people to the small town. On fears of contracting COVID and taking it home?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hell, no, we're going to get it sooner or later. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) the mask.

LAH: The reality of the virus now impacting college football, the major conferences expected to announce soon whether the fall season will happen, after a smaller conference canceled its football season over the weekend.

JON STEINBRECHER, COMMISSIONER, MID-AMERICAN CONFERENCE: It was not a decision that was made lightly. It was not a decision that was made quickly.

LAH: In the race for a vaccine, despite the president predicting one by Election Day...

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But around that date, yes, I think so.

LAH: ... that timeline may not happen. Moderna, the first company in the U.S. to begin phase three clinical trials last month, says about 4,500 study subjects have enrolled; 30,000 are expected by September.

But accounting for the time between for injections, by November 3:

DR. PAUL OFFIT, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF PHILADELPHIA: The chance that this could be done by the end of the year is just infinitesimally small.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAH: Now, while the college football season is yet to be decided, President Trump weighed in, tweeting that the student athletes have worked too hard to have their season canceled.

Pam, this tweet coming as the administration has been pushing for colleges and schools to reopen this fall -- Pam.

BROWN: That's right.

Kyung Lah, thank you for bringing us the very latest. And now let's discuss with CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay

Gupta.

OK, Sanjay, so you just listened to Kyung Lah's piece. And we heard one the people that was interviewed saying, oh, I might get it sooner or later. What's the big deal? Kind of like this cavalier attitude.

And you hear that, and we're so many months into this pandemic, and the death toll keeps rising. It makes you wonder, do people understand how serious this is? I mean, it's essentially Russian roulette, is it not? If you do get it, you could be one of the ones that responds badly to this virus.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right.

I mean, we have some idea who are the most vulnerable, Pamela, but, obviously, there's people who are younger, people without preexisting conditions who are getting sick. You spread it. So it's not just about, I'm going to get it sooner or later. You also become a vector of spread to people who don't think like you and don't want this virus.

The other part of this, as you remember, Pam, in the beginning, was all about this idea that if a lot of people get it quickly from what could be a super-spreader event that happened in South Dakota, the hospitals become overwhelmed.

[16:05:03]

I mean, so part of the part of the issue is that, yes, when we look at the overall fatality rate of this virus, it is what it is. But the idea that people overflood hospitals and can't get care and die from preventable deaths as a result is a real concern.

We're trying to outpace this virus, hopefully get a vaccine, hopefully do things that can mitigate it.

BROWN: Right.

GUPTA: If people think this way, the virus -- the virus will outpace us.

BROWN: That's exactly it.

And we're seeing that the virus outpace the U.S. The U.S. still hasn't gotten the upper hand with it. The virus is outpacing testing. And we have talked a lot, Sanjay, about what is it -- how can we get people to care more, right, younger people, who might be spreading it and people like we saw who were in Kyung Lah's story there?

And some of this is just, look, it's delayed gratification. It's, if you can just hunker down now, follow these mitigation efforts, you can get back to that life that we're all missing. Is it not about that in part and about empathy for others?

GUPTA: That argument certainly works with me, I think, Pamela, and probably your friends as well.

I think what we have seen around the country is a situation where certain regions start to redline. People get very sick, hospitals become overwhelmed, and people often know somebody who got very sick or died. And that all of a sudden makes it real for them.

You would like to think that other places around the country that observe this could say, hey, that's a lesson. We will learn that lesson without having to experience that turmoil ourselves.

But that doesn't seem to be the case. We saw what happened in the Northeast. Now you see what's happening in the South, where I live. I mean, sadly, I think some -- it'll take some terrible stories before people realize how real this is. They're going to see it firsthand.

Right now, I think about one in five, one in six people know somebody in the country who has contracted this virus. But the numbers are bound to go up over the next couple of months.

BROWN: Yes, I mean -- and you're absolutely right.

And let's talk about lessons learned, because we're already seen schools face the repercussions of opening and not having some of those mitigation efforts in place. This Georgia high school that went viral after this photo showed packed hallways.

And you can't really see many students wearing masks there. And now that school is reporting nine positive coronavirus cases. The school is currently being disinfected before it lets kids come back in for learning. We don't know when that is going to happen.

But what is the lesson learned at this school?

GUPTA: Well, I'm not sure there is a lesson learned here for the school, because I have talked to some of the folks over there. I looked at the letter that was sent to parents, Pamela.

There's still no mention of masks, right? I mean, you disinfect the entire school. Somebody comes in the next day who hasn't been tested, doesn't know they have the symptoms, and they sneeze or cough.

BROWN: Right.

GUPTA: I mean, that would infect -- that would sort of require disinfection of the whole area again. And you're going to just continue having that cycle.

BROWN: Right. Disinfectant doesn't necessarily stop the spread, to your point, yes.

GUPTA: Yes. It just buys you -- it's clean at that time that you cleaned it.

But if you don't have masks, and people still continue to put the germ into the environment on high-touch surfaces, possibly causing people to touch those surfaces, and then infect themselves, that cycle continues.

So, I hope there's a lesson for other school districts who look at this and say, OK, they didn't wear masks, they didn't follow these procedures that are recommended, and, right away, they had six kids and three teachers get infected.

Let's not do the same thing. Masks would be a simple way to do it. Frankly, as I have told you over the last couple of weeks now, Pamela, I think it may be an exercise in futility to just put this many people into an enclosed structure at this time in the middle of a pandemic.

I'd like my kids to go to school too, but I think it's just going to be impossible, certainly very hard.

BROWN: Yes.

And I want to go back to in a second on some kids and how they're impacted by the virus. But, first, I want to get to this -- what we learned from Georgia State Representative Beth Moore, and she said she's receiving leaving these messages from hundreds, she said, anonymous teachers about schools reopening.

And here's one example.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETH MOORE (D), GEORGIA STATES REPRESENTATIVE: This teacher writes: "I have a co-worker who has decided to report to the building today even though she had a positive COVID test last week. She says she feels better in our country does not -- and our county does not require a negative test before returning back to school.

"I am a type 1 diabetic. I'm incredibly fearful and couldn't sleep last night, because I feel as if I may be exposed today."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Now, we should note that Fulton County schools are virtual until Labor Day, but teachers are still required to report to the school.

And she brings up this interesting point. What protections should be in place if a teacher or student or administrator, for that matter, tests positive?

GUPTA: Well, you would like to think that, at this point, we'd be able to document that people are negative, that they no longer have the virus.

We don't have enough tests to do that. The testing that we do have is so sensitive in some cases that it may pick up viral fragments. The point is that the testing is not in position to actually provide the guarantees, the assurances that that teacher would want.

[16:10:10] What they say here, in order to sort of be considered negative, and we have a list of things here, is that you're 10 days since symptoms began, that you have been off of medications to lower fever for at least 24 hours, and that you had improvement in symptoms.

I don't know that this teacher, just hearing what the other teacher was saying, would fit this category, because she said she just started feeling better. You got to be 10 days symptom-free, so she may not fit that criteria even.

But the original sin here, Pamela, back to the original point, is we still don't have enough good assurance testing to obviate situations like this.

BROWN: Yes.

And as a parent, I still am, frankly, confused in terms of sending my child to school and how the virus impacts children, I mean, because there are all these different studies out. There's one study that shows younger kids have a higher viral load in their noses and other studies that say they don't -- younger kids don't transmit as much, but older kids could as much as adults, in that South Korea study.

GUPTA: Yes.

BROWN: And "The Washington Post" reported out -- pointed out that when it comes to children in the history of medicine, it's not always what we first assume, and that research takes time.

GUPTA: Right.

BROWN: What's at risk when it comes to making decisions without the full picture of the threat?

GUPTA: Well, the real risk is that these little kids, even, kids under the age of 10, could be spreaders of this virus, and we are treating them as if they're not. And that could actually contribute to significant burden of virus on the country, on their parents, on their grandparents, everything.

Here's the thing. I have looked at these studies very closely, Pamela. You're right, first of all, historically, we thought little kids weren't going to be spreaders of disease. That's what they thought about the flu originally. Then they realized little kids get the flu and they spread the flu.

What was we have seen here is that the kids who were surveyed -- did the surveillance testing -- they did have significant amounts of virus in their nose and their mouth. That would sort of fit with the idea that they could be significant spreaders.

The South Korea contact tracing study, basically -- I looked at this very carefully -- there's some 50,000 contacts that were traced, but only about 50 were from kids zero to nine. Point is that kids really haven't been out over the last several months.

BROWN: Right. Right.

GUPTA: Very little. They have been at home. It's been kids who are older and adults who've been out.

We don't know for sure what the contact tracing shows about these younger kids. My guess is, they're going to spread. I mean, they have the virus in their nose. And history teaches us that.

BROWN: Yes. Yes, history shows that.

Just anecdotally, like, I don't know about you, but my kids used to get me sick all the time.

GUPTA: Right.

BROWN: Especially my toddler would go out, and I don't know how to compare that to the -- to COVID-19.

But it just -- you're right. You make a really important point, that there's a difference between these studies with kids that have been in lockdown or staying at home vs. in these crowded situations in school.

There's a very big difference there.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you so much. Great discussion, as always.

GUPTA: You got it, Pamela. Thank you.

BROWN: Well, as concerns grow when Americans will actually see the money President Trump offered this weekend, a new report says he wants to make a big change to Mount Rushmore. That is next.

And then: Which masks keep you safe? Details of a new study, including the one mask which may make things worse.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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BROWN: And in our politics lead today, President Trump is firing back after a fellow Republican called Trump's executive orders, quote, unconstitutional slop. Senator Ben Sasse is the first Republican to publicly criticize the president's actions on coronavirus relief, though other top Republicans agree it is not the job of the president to make those decisions.

But negotiations between the White House and Democrats fell apart on Friday leaving millions of Americans struggling to pay bills.

And as CNN's Jeremy Diamond reports, there are no signs of a deal on the horizon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Today, confusion and uncertainty for millions of Americans waiting on help from Washington.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNTIED STATES: We think it's going to be very rapid. We want it to be very rapid.

DIAMOND: Two days after President Trump signed an executive action promising $400 per week to out of work Americans, the White House is shifting responsibility to the states.

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: He hope to see it quickly and close to immediately I don't have an exact readout for you on time, but a lot of this will depend on states and them applying.

DIAMOND: And blaming Democrats for any delays in the president's new program.

MCENANY: Any delay that does exist, it's important to note where that delay and the responsibility rests with Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer.

DIAMOND: And beyond delays, many unemployed Americans might not see any new money unless their governor agrees to pay a quarter of the cost and administer the new benefit. Many states already cash strapped amid the pandemic, unable to chip in and caught off guard by Trump's proposal.

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): If he thinks this is a resolution, this only makes a bad situation worse.

DIAMOND: Trump also facing criticism from within his own party. Today firing back at Republican Senator Ben Sasse who called Trump's executive actions unconstitutional slop, tweeting: RINO or Republican in name only Ben Sasse has gone rogue again.

And while Trump took a victory lap this weekend --

TRUMP: We've got much of what we've wanted without having to give up anything. And that's very good. You can't beat that.

DIAMOND: -- Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin suggesting the administration is still in a deal-making mood.

STEVEN MNUCHIN, TREASURY SECRETARY: We are prepared to put more money on the table.

[16:20:01]

So, there are things as I said that made sense to compromise. We've compromised. If we can get a fair deal, we'll do it this week.

DIAMOND: The president claiming his unilateral action is bringing Democrats back to the table.

TRUMP: The Democrats have told they'd like to get together.

DIAMOND: But the Democrats, baffled. SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): Fables from Donald Trump. That's what he

seems to specialize in. I didn't call him. Speaker Pelosi didn't call him. He makes these things up.

DIAMOND: Trump has yet to engage directly in the latest negotiations and he hasn't talked to Pelosi since October.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DIAMOND: And, Pam, we've reported that President Trump is considering delivering his GOP nomination acceptance speech from the White House. But amid from criticism of that potential venue, the president is now floating another one. This time he's talking about the hallowed civil war battlefield in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. But that can be controversial because this is a president who has positioned himself as a defender of Confederate symbols and monuments to Confederate generals -- Pam.

BROWN: Yeah, that's a fair point to make.

And also, Jeremy, there was this reporting from "The New York Times" claiming the White House actually reached out to the governor of South Dakota about the process of adding more presidents to Mount Rushmore.

Do we know how serious this actually was? It seems as though the president liked this idea in his tweet today.

DIAMOND: Well, all you have to do is look at the public statements by the president himself and by Governor Noem. The president tweeted this morning that this was a false report but at the same time, he said, quote, sounds like a good idea to me.

And for her part, Governor Noem talked in a 2018 interview about the fact that she actually discussed this with the president in the Oval Office back in 2017. And the president told her it was his dream to have his face added to Mount Rushmore. She started laughing and then she said, quote, he was totally serious.

And clearly, Pam, she didn't forget it. She actually greeted the president when he visited Mount Rushmore just last month with a four- foot replica of the monument, with one addition, the president's face -- Pam.

BROWN: All right. Jeremy, thanks so much for that.

Well, a new study finds one type of face mask may actually spread coronavirus instead of help contain it. We'll talk to the former head of the CDC about that and more, up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:26:54]

BROWN: And turning to our health lead now, a new study you need to see before you wear your next mask. Duke University researchers tested 14 different types of masks to see which were the most effective. Well, here's what they found. N95 masks, to no surprise, won out.

But those fleece neck gaiters not only aren't preventing respiratory droplets from escaping, but they actually make them spread more.

Joining me now is the former acting CDC director, Dr. Richard Besser.

Thank you for coming on.

And to be clear here, Doctor, the study does not say you shouldn't wear a mask. You still should wear one, but the type of mask you wear really matters here. How so?

DR. RICHARD BESSER, FORMER ACTING DIRECTOR, CDC: Yeah. Well, you know, it's not surprising that different types of material, different thickness is going to have different impact in terms of spreading respiratory droplets. And that's the moisture that comes out of your mouth that we're concerned about in terms of spreading virus.

You know, this is one study. It's a laboratory study. And what they found is that not all masks are created equal. The N95 masks that are used in health care settings that we really want to leave available for people in health care settings are the best. They're really well fitted and will ensure that the individual wearing those is not exposed to respiratory droplets from others.

What the big goal is for the masks that we wear is to protect other people. What they found was that the fleecy masks that people wear when they're running actually break down bigger respiratory droplets into smaller ones that then come through the material. This doesn't show that these have been responsible for spread. But what they found in here was that cotton masks that are three layers thick and the surgical masks that so many people wear, that those were better than the fleecies or the bandannas.

You know, the bottom line takeaway is that everyone should be wearing masks. That's really important when you can't social distance. And that we need to do more than that. We need to make sure that everyone has what they need to keep themselves and their families safe.

BROWN: Right. So, N95 is considered the cream of the crop as far as masks go. But like you pointed out, they were in short supply early on. They are reserved for health care professionals. But considering how much longer we have to go until potentially a vaccine is created and enough people get it, do you think it's realistic or it's something that could happen where the rest of the public could have access to N95 masks?

BESSER: Well, you know, again, we're looking at things you can do to help reduce the risk to others around you. I've worn n95s in health care settings. And wearing them properly for long periods of time is really challenging. It can be really difficult to breathe through a properly fitted N95. I think for the general public going with a well- made cloth mask or a surgical mask is a good way to go.

BROWN: Is sufficient. OK. So let's talk about the challenges of wearing a mask, because we

were having this robust discussion with the team today about exercising outside. More exercise groups are going outside for classes. And I sometimes see runners wearing masks.

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