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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Unrest in Wisconsin Following Police Shooting; RNC Speakers Deliver Message of Fear; FDA Commissioner Apologizes For Misleading Statements on COVID-19 Treatment. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired August 25, 2020 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We begin today with the health lead, the coronavirus pandemic.

New COVID-19 cases in the United States are thankfully declining, declining from the peak in July, but the Midwest is seeing cases rise. The governor of Kansas, Laura Kelly, calling the state's infection rate -- quote -- "an alarming trend in the wrong direction," as a top Trump administration official is also walking back a false statement inflating the effectiveness about a potential treatment for the virus.

The FDA commissioner, Dr. Stephen Hahn, now admitting this major mistake, as Dr. Jeanne Marrazzo explained to us on this show yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. JEANNE MARRAZZO, UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA AT BIRMINGHAM: He misstated the magnitude of the benefit. He said that there a 35 percent reduction -- that 35 out of 100 people would be saved, right, if they got plasma.

That is a complete misrepresentation of what the data actually showed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, Dr. Hahn now acknowledging that Marrazzo was right, and apologizing for overstating the benefits of convalescent plasma pushed by President Trump, Dr. Hahn calling the criticism of his statements justified, though he also maintains the emergency use authorization of the plasma treatment was not, not politically motivated.

Many health officials believe there is not yet enough evidence behind its use. And there have been concerns that the push is part of President Trump looking to deliver victories of sorts ahead of the November election, with many experts worried that the president may push a vaccine before one is ready.

CNN senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen joins us now. And, Elizabeth, how significant is that overstatement of efficacy by Dr. Hahn?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It's a big difference.

I mean, we heard -- we just heard you and your -- the other doctor, the doctor talking about how he said, oh, if there were 100 people who have coronavirus, convalescent plasma would prevent 35 of them from dying.

That's not at all right. So let's look at the numbers that are right. What this study did show is, it looked at death rates when people -- people who were treated and then people who died within a certain time period.

What they found was that 8.7 percent of the patients who were treated within three days of getting diagnosed died, but 11.9 percent of patients who were treated four days or after their diagnosis died. That's a difference. That is a difference. It's about a 35 percent difference. He was confusing something called absolute risk with something called relative risk.

It is a rookie mistake. It is a biostats 101 mistake. And I think many people were surprised that he would make that mistake. But, essentially, what Dr. Hahn was saying earlier today is that the FDA gave the authorization not based on his misinterpretation, but based on the actual study.

Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. STEPHEN HAHN, COMMISSIONER, FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION: I can assure the American people that this decision was made based upon sound science.

The data that we need, which is a risk/benefit assessment for an emergency use authorization, were met.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: So, again, Dr. Hahn, saying that the authorization was made based on science, not based on political pressure -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Elizabeth Cohen, thank you so much.

I want to discuss this with Dr. Ashish Jha. He's director of Harvard's Global Health Institute.

Do you believe Dr. Hahn when he says this was not a political decision?

DR. ASHISH JHA, DIRECTOR, HARVARD GLOBAL HEALTH INSTITUTE: Well, Jake, thank you for having me on. It's hard to know, of course. I think that he's right that the FDA

certainly has the authority to do this. And, in fact, the evidence may have been adequate to have an EUA.

It just feels like, coming 24 hours after President Trump's tweet, and then the really gross mischaracterization of the data, which Dr. Hahn has walked back, all of that certainly makes worry that the scientific process is being corrupted.

But we don't know for sure. And I'm going to give the -- certainly, the scientists at the FDA, I think they're doing their job right.

TAPPER: Based on your analysis, is there a clear benefit from plasma for patients?

JHA: No, look, I have been very hopeful about plasma for months. But hope is not science and hope is not evidence.

I think even the data that Dr. Hahn talked about didn't compare plasma to no plasma. It compared to people who got it early vs. people who got it later, and found that people got it early.

But there are all sorts of reasons that could be beyond the benefit of the plasma. So, short answer, we don't know. We don't know who it's useful for. We don't know when it's useful. We need the studies.

TAPPER: Should Americans trust the FDA? Because, ultimately, they're the ones that are going to approve a vaccine. They're the ones that are going to say that this vaccine is safe and effective. Should Americans trust them?

JHA: So, there's a long history of Americans trusting the scientists at the FDA and the CDC. And it is the job of leaders like Dr. Redfield at CDC and Dr. Hahn at FDA to protect the scientists from political pressure

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At this point, the great scientists at the FDA are still there. So I trust them. But I want to make sure that their judgment is protected and not influenced by the political process. And that's really going to be driven by the data that they're looking at and they're putting out.

TAPPER: There's a doctor at Johns Hopkins who said that the current trend of coronavirus outbreaks in the U.S. is this idea of rolling hot spots because of the -- quote -- "hodgepodge of policies" that don't necessarily fit the task in many states.

Do you agree with that characterization?

JHA: Well, I certainly agree that we have a hodgepodge, right? We have no national strategy for this virus. And so we have a hodgepodge of policies.

Where I think -- respectfully disagree is this idea of rolling, in the sense that everybody is going to at some point become a hot spot again. It really depends on local leadership. When governors actually smartly and based on data, I think they can keep the virus under reasonable control.

We're seeing that in the Northeast. We're seeing it in parts of the Midwest, but not in other areas. So it's really about policy and what governors do. And I think we can avoid those rolling hot spots if we continue to follow the science.

TAPPER: The University of Alabama reported more than 500 new cases among students, faculty and staff since classes resumed last week. Some colleges are threatening suspensions for students who disobey guidelines and gather together.

The positivity rate at UNC Chapel Hill is at more than 30 percent. Realistically, should colleges even try to have in-person learning or students on campus?

JHA: You know, Jake, there's a right way to do this and there's a wrong way to do this.

The right way really requires testing, quarantining kids when they come into campus, trying to avoid some of those large gatherings, but being realistic that college kids are not going to be perfect in their adherence to those guidelines.

I think a lot of colleges and universities just try to wing it, decided not to follow those public health guidelines. And we're seeing the consequences of that. I'm hoping that other places that are much more careful and science-driven can open safely. But it is tricky.

But I think we have a much better shot if we look at the science, as opposed to just doing it the way UNC and other places have done it.

TAPPER: I need to ask you.

The Republican Convention is this week, and they're pushing this revisionist history, where China, Democrats and the news media mishandled the virus, but President Trump and his administration did everything right. What's your response?

JHA: Well, I think there's a long history in our country of accountability among our leaders.

The leader of our nation is Donald Trump. And we have the worst pandemic response of any major country in the world. So, I do think that we need to hold our leaders accountable, and I think we need to hold the federal government accountable.

It is not that we have had 50 governors who've all failed. We have really had a failed federal effort on this. And I'm still hopeful that the federal government can turn it around. Otherwise, it's going to be hard to get through this pandemic.

TAPPER: Yes.

Dr. Ashish Jha, thank you so much for your time and for your candor.

Coming up next: what Trump advisers are saying about plans for tonight's Republican National Convention.

Plus, claims of sex lies and blackmail -- now a new development, as scandal surrounds one of President Trump's most loyal evangelical allies.

And we're going to go live to Wisconsin, where a community is demanding answers into the police shooting of Jacob Blake, a black man now paralyzed, according to his father, from the waist down.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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TAPPER: And we're back with our 2020 lead.

The second night of the Republican National Committee started in just a few hours -- will start in just a few hours, headlined by first lady Melania Trump, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, in a break from tradition, and two of the Trump children.

Despite promises of an optimistic message, much of last night's convention seemed largely focused on some dire warnings about a country, what it might look like under control by Democrats.

CNN White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins joins me now live.

And, Kaitlan, is there any indication that the message tonight will be more optimistic, as we were told it would be?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I think the way that the campaign sees it is, they are drawing a contrast between the president and Joe Biden. They say they don't think that this is some kind of dark message, though the reason that really that setting was there, that standard was set was because of the president.

He was the one who said it was going to be a much more uplifting convention than what he believed Democrats held last week, when most of last night looked more like this:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, TRUMP CAMPAIGN OFFICIAL: They want to destroy this country and no everything that we have fought for and hold dear.

REP. STEVE SCALISE (R-LA): This is an election between a party that wants to burn down the foundations of our country to the ground, and a party that wants to rebuild and protect our great nation.

DONALD TRUMP JR., SON OF DONALD TRUMP: It's almost like this election is shaping up to be church, work, and school vs. rioting, looting, and vandalism. (END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Now, there were softer approaches. You saw that from Senator Tim Scott, people like Nikki Haley.

But I talked to someone today who said, if the whole evening had been more muted speeches like that, the president wouldn't have been happy with how night one turned out.

So, for night two tonight, Jake, we are going to hear from Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. That's one of the big voices tonight. And it's already drawn a lot of outrage before he's ever even uttered a word, because, of course, he is the first sitting secretary of state to address a national political convention in over 75 years.

And also, on top of that, he prerecorded his speech from the famed King David Hotel in Jerusalem there on the rooftop. So, of course, he's going to try to tout the president's Middle East policies while he's there.

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But that's while he's on an official diplomatic trip. So, people are saying that that is breaking this precedent not to mix diplomacy with politics.

Even though a State Department official is saying no official government resources were used, it's still drawing a lot of criticism already.

TAPPER: And, Kaitlan, first lady Melania Trump will speak tonight. Last time, she was accused of plagiarizing excerpts of Michelle Obama's speech during the 2016 Republican Convention.

Now we have learned that Mrs. Trump's speech for tonight was not vetted by anyone in the West Wing. What are we expecting to hear from her tonight?

COLLINS: Yes, this has really been an isolated speechwriting process for Melania Trump. It's really been handled mainly out of the East Wing. It hasn't gone through the West Wing and the Republican campaign -- the Republican Convention committee, really, speechwriting committee that's been handling all of this.

Instead, it's been her own project. And so her chief of staff said today, when she was asked about those accusations of plagiarism from last time, she said she's written every word herself this time. And you can obviously expect it to focus on Be Best, her missions that she's done with children, things like that of that nature.

But it will be her longest speech yet, so it will be interesting to see just how wide-ranging this speech is from the first lady. And it will be live tonight in the Rose Garden. And we do expect President Trump to be there for it.

TAPPER: All right, Kaitlan Collins, thank you so much. Appreciate it. And speaking of the Republican Convention, last night at the

convention, Donald Trump Jr. said -- quote -- "We are not going to tear down monuments and forget the people who built our great nation. Instead, we will learn from our past mistakes -- from our past, so we don't repeat any mistakes" -- unquote.

I thought that Donald Trump Jr. was referring to Confederate monuments, but he told me today that he was not. He was referring to monuments of the founding fathers, which he had referenced earlier. I regret the error.

The Biden campaign is trying to diminish the RNC today by rolling out another group of former Republican officials who are backing Biden in this election. And they are getting help at undermining the president's message by his former lawyer Michael Cohen.

CNN's Jessica Dean joins me now live from Washington.

And, Jessica, who are these latest endorsements? And why does the Biden campaign think that they might be important?

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake, this is just the latest in them rolling out Republicans who are supporting Joe Biden.

So, today, these are eight former appointees who were appointed by past Republican presidents, Reagan, President George H.W. Bush, President George W. Bush, and then one appointee who actually served on President Trump's transition team.

And the Biden team really thinking that this makes the case. They came out saying that they are supporting Joe Biden because of what they see as corruption and abuse of power from within the West Wing, from within the Oval Office. They said that President Trump has used the Department of Justice to protect himself and his friends, and that they really want to take a stand on this, Jake.

But interesting, too, on the flip side, we saw last night a Georgia state representative, a Democrat, speaking at the RNC. So we're seeing a little bit of this back and forth.

And all also important to note, just how much do these people, do these past Republican appointees and former -- and Republicans that are coming out for Biden represent where the Republican Party is today, under President Trump?

TAPPER: There's also this new ad out from a third-party group featuring Michael Cohen, the president's former lawyer, who we should note is still on house arrest as part of his sentence for tax evasion and other charges.

What is Michael Cohen saying in this ad? And is it credible, given his history?

DEAN: Well, so Michael Cohen now out with this ad through a Democratic group. They're the ones responsible for putting this out. And he's talking about how he knew President Trump and really what

he's learned from this experience. I will let you take a listen. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER ATTORNEY/FIXER FOR DONALD TRUMP: I'm here to tell you he can't be trusted, and you shouldn't believe a word he utters.

The president is going to talk to you about law and order. That's laughable. Virtually everyone who worked for his campaign has been convicted of a crime or is under indictment, myself included.

I was part of it, and I fell for it. You don't have to like me, but please listen to me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: So, American Bridge, the group that put that out, wouldn't comment on whether Cohen was paid for his appearance in that ad.

And, Jake, to your question about, should it be trusted or not, that's really up to the voters at home.

Michael Cohen, of course, putting out this image that he's been rehabilitated in his thinking around President Trump now that he's faced legal consequences, the Trump campaign saying he's simply not trustworthy.

TAPPER: They wouldn't answer whether or not he's been compensated. Interesting.

Jessica Dean, thank you so much.

Tonight's headliners at the Republican National Convention include Senator Rand Paul, Secretary of State Pompeo, and first lady Melania Trump. Our live coverage will begin at 7:00 Eastern here on CNN.

It has been 48 hours now since police shot Jacob Blake, a black man, now paralyzed. There were witnesses. There is video. So why not more information made public about what led to the shots being fired?

We're going to go live to Wisconsin next.

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TAPPER: Welcome back.

Right now, in Louisville, Kentucky, a four-day demonstration just started calling for justice in the Breonna Taylor case. Taylor was killed by police in her own home on March 13. One officer was since fired. None have been arrested. She was only 26-year-old. She worked as an emergency medical technician. [15:25:13]

CNN's Jason Carroll is live for us in Louisville.

And, Jason, organizers are calling this event BreonnaCon. Who's behind the event? What do they hope to accomplish?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there are a couple hundred demonstrators that started at a park not close to where we are, about a mile away, marched through the streets of Louisville to a police training station, Jake, and then stopped in front of Churchill Downs, home of the Kentucky Derby, and staged a sit-in.

So far, no arrests. In terms of what they're trying to accomplish out here -- and I'm sure you have heard this before -- they want to keep the attention the three officers involved in Breonna Taylor's shooting.

When I spoke to Breonna Taylor's mother, she said that she is continuously inspired by demonstrations like this, seeing people come out, expressing their point of view.

Now, these demonstrators say, the organizers tell me that they want this to be a peaceful demonstration, nonviolent, but they didn't want to mistake peaceful for being quiet. And they didn't want to mistake peaceful for acts of disobedience, which they say they intend to -- they intend to have these acts of disobedience throughout the day and into the early evening.

So, as we see right now, we have got the protesters who have stopped there sit-in front of Churchill Downs. They're continuing their march. They say they're going to continue their march throughout the day, and, again, the purpose of this to make sure that investigators know that a number of people here in this community have not forgotten about Breonna Taylor, not forgotten about those three officers as well -- Jake.

TAPPER: Jason, the mayor has said that police would get involved if protests become violent, but, so far, you have seen no evidence of any violence, right?

CARROLL: No evidence of any violence. We have seen evidence and acts of civil disobedience. Again, we have seen the people standing, lying down in the middle of the street here, no acts of violence.

And the organizers say that's not what they want. Breonna Taylor's family say they don't want violence as well. They want to keep the issue focus on the investigation, the outcome of that investigation, and the three officers involved in the shooting of Breonna Taylor -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Jason Carroll in Louisville, thank you so much.

Also, in our national lead, Jacob Blake's father says his son is paralyzed from the waist down, at least temporarily. The 29-year-old black man was shot in the back by Kenosha, Wisconsin, police at least seven times in front of his three sons.

Overnight, more protests, fires looting and violence in Kenosha, where police have offered few details to explain what exactly happened.

CNN's Sara Sidner is live from Kenosha.

And, Sara, you spoke with Blake's father. What did he have to say?

SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, he told us that his son has gone through multiple surgeries in the hospital and is still in the hospital in stable condition.

And the doctors told him that his son is actually paralyzed from the waist down. Now, the question is whether or not he will be paralyzed for life or this is temporary. That, doctors do not know at this point, according to his father, but certainly a life-changing moment for him and for the three children, a 3-year-old, 5-year-old and 8- year-old that his dad said were inside the car when their father was shot.

So there is a lot of grief in this family, even though they are so very thankful that their son is still alive and is still with us. We also were able to talk to his uncle, Justin Blake, who talked about his nephew, saying that he used to come to Chicago to volunteer, he used to live in Chicago, and actually moved here because he was trying to find a better life for himself and his children.

And then the family got this devastating telephone call that no family ever wants to get.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUSTIN BLAKE, UNCLE OF JACOB BLAKE: After talking to his mother, she and my brother are asking people in Kenosha and around this nation to protest, but protest nonviolently.

We want justice, and we're going to get justice. We're going to demand justice. But we're going to do that without tearing up our own communities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: And they have been very clear about that, that they are honored that people are in the streets, that they are saying their family member's name, saying Jacob Blake's name, but that they absolutely want this to be nonviolent, because, as the uncle said, the community will have to deal with the difficulties of some of these places being burned down around them, some of these businesses being burned down around them.

It takes away jobs and it takes away resources. And they want this to be peaceful, but they also are demanding justice from the police department and officials as well -- Jake.

TAPPER: Yes. And, Sara, the governor there, the Democratic governor, said: "We cannot allow the cycle of systemic racism and injustice to continue. We also cannot continue going down this path of damage and destruction."

People very concerned right there about what some, not all, but some demonstrators are doing in terms of the violence.