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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Pence Set to Target Biden in RNC Speech; Did Trump Administration Order CDC to Change COVID-19 Testing Protocols?; 17- Year-Old Suspect Arrested in Deadly Kenosha Shootings. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired August 26, 2020 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

DANIEL MISKINIS, KENOSHA, WISCONSIN, POLICE CHIEF: This is not a police action. This is not the action, I believe, of those who set out to do protests.

It is involved -- it is the persons who were involved after the legal time, involved in illegal activity that brought violence to this community.

So, last night, unfortunately, a 26-year-old Silver Lake resident, and a 36-year-old Kenosha resident lost their lives to the senseless violence. A 26-year-old West Allis resident was also injured, but is expected to survive.

This case is still very active. We have investigators out now still following leads and then doing what we can to bring around -- excuse me -- to bring about the closure to that.

The names of those involved are not being released at this time. As I said, it's a very active investigation. And we have a person in custody out of state. I'll be working to bring that person to Wisconsin to face appropriate charges.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

You have been watching an update from officials in Kenosha, Wisconsin, giving an update on the unrest in Wisconsin following the police killing of Jacob Blake there earlier in the week and violence afterwards.

For the first time, the chief of police spoke about Jacob Blake, saying that he cannot talk about the incident.

This comes as we have gotten some brand-new information in the last few minutes about the suspect who was taken into custody for separate shootings that occurred last night.

According to the police department, two people were shot and killed. Another one was injured.

CNN's Sara Sidner joins me now on the phone from Kenosha, Wisconsin.

Sara, what do we know about the suspect?

SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's really interesting to note that, so far, we haven't heard the police, nor the sheriff of Kenosha talking about the violence that erupted last night, where two people were shot and killed and one person injured.

You're listening and seeing, I think, the video there of one of those shootings. What we now know is that a 17-year-old teenager is in custody. That (AUDIO GAP) has been brought into custody, accused of intentional homicide of the first degree.

And so you have got this really awful scene that had unfolded overnight, and we're not hearing anything we thought would be addressed by Kenosha police or by the Kenosha County Sheriff's Department.

But we do know that the person that was arrested was actually arrested by a different department, the Antioch Police Department. That is a town about a dozen miles outside of Kenosha. And we understand from the Antioch police that indeed the 17-year-old is also from Antioch. So he had come into town.

What we do not know, though, is -- we have seen so many social media videos, one of which shows a young man who has a large weapon, a weapon as large almost as he is, walking through the streets being chased by people who are screaming, "He shot someone."

And then we see him slow. We seen him turn the gun, people coming up to him, trying to apprehend him or trying to attack him. And he fires one shot at one person who crumbles to the ground and is lifeless.

And then you see him fire another shot at someone else who is point- blank range. That person was hit in the arm. We talked to a witness, Jake, who said he was livestreaming all of this. His name is C.J. Halliburton.

He says was there, he saw everything happen, and that the injuries to the man who was shot in the arm were massive, that this was a high- powered gun, and he lost most of the top of his arm.

But that man has survived. We know, though, that two people have not survived in two separate shootings. We are still trying to ascertain whether or not the video that everyone has been watching on social media of this young man walking through the streets with this high- powered weapon and being chased then by people is the same person who has been arrested by Antioch police, a 17-year-old who is currently in custody, who is said to be charged or is going to be charged, they say, with homicide.

So, there are a lot of things that have not been explained by authorities. But it's also interesting to note that this is the first time that we have heard from the Kenosha police or the sheriff's department. They have not had any other press conferences. They have not spoken with the class on a large scale since the shooting of Jacob Blake, and that shooting precipitating the protests that have happened, that have turned into in some cases riots and lootings.

Those protests overnight, there's a new element that has been added in. And that is groups that are coming out. They are armed to the teeth. They are standing around buildings. They're mostly white men standing around buildings, saying, we are here to protect the buildings.

[15:05:03]

And now you have this incident where someone is carrying arms, running through the streets, and then ends up shooting two people.

Again, we're trying to ascertain whether that is the same person that has been arrested and charged with murder by Antioch police -- Jake.

TAPPER: And, Sara, you probably were leaving the room getting ready to talk to us. And so you didn't hear when the Kenosha police chief, Miskinis, I believe is his name, identified -- he did speak about the shooting last night, not about who the perpetrator was that I heard.

SIDNER: Yes.

TAPPER: He said that one of the victims was -- one of the victims killed was a 26-year-old resident of Silver Lake, Wisconsin, and another was a 36-year-old Kenosha, Wisconsin, resident.

Have we been able to ascertain, any of your sources in law enforcement or through any other way, what -- who this 17-year-old was, what his motivation was, whether he's claiming he was acting in self-defense, whether he was just running around shooting protesters?

Do we have any idea?

SIDNER: No.

I mean, we do know one thing that, when we talked to one of the witnesses of one of these shootings, we know that there were two separate shootings. One person was, allegedly, according to witnesses, hit in the head, another person hit somewhere in the torso, in the body, and then one person hit the arm.

We are hearing from people that this -- that the person they saw is very young, so matches the description of the 17-year-old who has been arrested by Antioch police.

But we do not know any kind of motivation. We don't know why, for example, the 17-year-old was in town, if he was taking part in the protests, or if he was here for some other reason. Those are all questions that I'm sure police are trying to ascertain, and, certainly, the folks who have witnessed this horrific shooting are trying to figure out as well. But we do that he is from out of town, so that he isn't somebody who's just a resident who happened to be in the streets, that this person actively came into town for some reason or another, and he was armed.

TAPPER: Yes, that's right. He's being described as a 17-year-old resident of the state of Illinois, so not only not in -- not from Kenosha, but not even from Wisconsin.

Sara Sidner, keeps us up to speed as to what you're learning.

Joining us now to talk about this all, CNN's political commentator Bakari Sellers and also James Gagliano, who is a CNN law enforcement analyst.

James, let me start with you.

And let's start a few days ago with Jacob Blake. The police chief just minutes ago said that he has no details on the incident. He cannot talk about it. This is, in part, of course, because the state is handling the investigation.

Is it normal protocol for law enforcement at this point to have not have even offered any sort of explanation, any sort of fuller picture that they are claiming might be important context?

JAMES GAGLIANO, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Jake, that's a fair question. And I know a lot of people are unnerved because the officer's name has not been released.

But we have to look at this from the perspective that these officers are entitled to due process. And there is a system in place. And, yes, there are unions involved and collective bargaining and what the rules are as far as releasing information about the officers.

Look, I thought the police chief threaded the needle expertly. He stated on camera, he stated at a press conference, we are not going to hide behind any preconceived thin blue line of silence.

He says, we're going to get to the bottom of this. We are not conducting the investigation.

And, Jake, I think more facts are going to come out in regards to the officers involved, whether or not there were body camera footage available and things like that. The investigation has to play itself out. It just doesn't help when we have riots like this, when we have people attacking innocent officers and businesses.

That doesn't help the situation for us, Jake.

TAPPER: Well, obviously, nobody is saying that it does.

But -- well, let me ask Bakari a question. I'll come back to you, James.

Bakari, there's now two more dead people -- or two dead people, because Jacob Blake is alive -- and others injured, Jacob Blake and then somebody else who was injured. We know that the two individuals who were killed we know, it's a 26-year-old Silver Like, Wisconsin, resident and a 36-year-old Kenosha, Wisconsin, resident.

What's your reaction to what we're seeing?

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: So, I hear James and I hear everything that he's saying.

And let me start by being unequivocal in saying that I condemn the rioting. I condemn the looting. I believe that everybody has the right to a peaceful protest. And I want people to take to the streets peacefully, to echo the words of Jacob Blake's mother, in giving their son -- and making sure his life matters and making sure, when you have a grievance, you can air it fairly.

The biggest problem I have, though, is that people are asking for us to give due process and benefit of the doubt to law enforcement where there's not that trust and where that same benefit of the doubt was not given to Jacob Blake.

[15:10:05]

He was shot seven times in the back. He wasn't Tased. He wasn't billy clubbed. He wasn't tackled. He was shot, lethal force, seven times in the back.

And so while I hear the echoes and the calls for due process and benefit of the doubt, just recall and remember that that wasn't given to Jacob. That's first.

The second thing is, I hear people condemning the rioting and looting and asking us and especially black folk to come on TV and condemn the rioting and the looting. I will do that.

But I also want people to stand up and condemn these unlawful shootings that we're seeing against particularly men of color, and also condemn these vigilantes, which are making it more difficult for law enforcement to do their job.

You had vigilantes attack the Kentucky capitol. You had them attack in march around the Michigan capitol, and nobody said anything? And now you have them in Wisconsin. They're not counterprotesters. They're vigilantes. We have two more dead and another injured.

TAPPER: All right, Bakari Sellers, James Gagliano, thank you so much.

In our health lead today: a shocking change from the CDC. The CDC now suggesting fewer people be tested for the novel coronavirus, which is the exact opposite of what so many health experts say is needed to identify and isolate the virus in order to save lives.

A senior federal health officials tell CNN that this new change by the CDC was made after pressure from the top of the Trump administration.

Now, we know that President Trump has been lamenting that so much testing results in higher numbers of cases. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We test more than anybody by far. And when you test, you create cases, so we have created cases.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Of course, testing doesn't create cases. It uncovers cases. It uncovers an infection.

As a top health expert put it, people without symptoms are -- quote -- "exactly the people who should be tested," given that the CDC estimates that about half of the transmission of coronavirus in the United States happens before any symptoms appear.

Let's bring in Michael Osterholm. He's the director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota.

Michael, good to see you.

The CDC's guidance on testing was until recently -- quote -- "Testing is recommended for all close contacts of persons with SARS-CoV-2 infection."

But now the CDC says, "If you have been in close contact, within six feet of a person with a COVID-19 infection for at least 15 days -- for at least 15 minutes, but do not have symptoms, you do not necessarily need a test, unless you are a vulnerable individual or your health care provider or state or local public health officials recommend you take one" -- unquote.

Does this new guidance make any medical sense?

DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH: All I can say, Jake, is, I'm dumbfounded by this recommendation, not just the fact that they made it, but how they made it, kind of under the cover of night.

When someone has been exposed to the coronavirus, it's true that, in the first two or three days, they won't be positive. And we, of course, counsel people at that point not to be tested.

But, by day four and five, it is important to know if they're positive, because, one, it reinforces the reason why they need to be isolated and not transmitting to others. And also it gives them warning that they very well may need to seek health care.

So I can think of no conceivable reason why this recommendation was made, other than just to reduce testing.

TAPPER: And if the Trump administration is effectively pressuring the CDC's health guidance, where should Americans turn to get safe and accurate medical advice? Their state health agencies?

OSTERHOLM: At this point, in 45 years in this business, I have never sensed a time when both the FDA and the CDC, two very critical agencies that have always operated on the top level of science and good public policy, are now, in a sense, really under attack, meaning that they're being asked do things that are not in keeping with science.

And this is dangerous, because our lives, in fact, depend on having the kind of accurate information about what public practices to -- public health practices to pursue, what drugs to trust, what vaccines to trust.

And this seems to be not, just the CDC, but both FDA and CDC right now are in real jeopardy of being trusted by the very people who have counted on them most, those in the public health community.

TAPPER: So, what you're saying is, because there will now be fewer tests, because an individual who comes in contact with somebody who has COVID isn't necessarily going to be tested unless they're in a vulnerable group, that means -- tell me if I'm getting this right -- that means that that person, because they're no longer going to be tested, will not be aware if he or she is infected, which means that he or she will be more likely to spread the virus.

So, what you're basically saying is that the president's desire for lower numbers, for apparent political reasons, will cost American lives?

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OSTERHOLM: What I can say with certainty is that, when I tell someone who has been exposed to a patient, you need to isolate for 14 days, that is a very tall order to ask someone to do if they don't believe that they really are infected.

So, part of the whole point of keeping them from being in the public, to motivate them to actually complete that kind of isolation or quarantine, is to, in fact, be tested, to know, am I likely to transmit this virus? So this is an important part of the entire effort to get people not to expose others.

So, you're right. We're taking that away now. And if there were data that supported, well, in fact, it doesn't work, it's using up precious resources we need elsewhere, then we could at least have that discussion. We have not even had an opportunity to have this discussion.

This recommendation just literally appeared overnight, without any scientific review that anyone that I'm aware of has seen. And on top of that, I too can confirm from my own discussions with senior CDC personnel today this did come down from on top. This was not a science review issue. This was a policy issue that is, in fact, I think, a very dangerous precedent.

TAPPER: Briefly, if you could, so what's the worst thing that happens because of this new rule?

OSTERHOLM: We will see more cases, more transmission. And this pandemic is just going to continue to grow, as we have talked about many times.

What we're seeing right now in college campuses, around the country, we're seeing in high schools, the case numbers are going to go up substantially in the days ahead. We're going to see more cases, more deaths.

We're far from done with this pandemic yet. Only 8 to 10 percent of Americans have been infected with this virus to date. There are a lot of additional people that will get infected between now and the time we might achieve herd immunity of 50 to 70 percent of the population protected by either disease or vaccine.

And this is a huge concern right now.

TAPPER: Michael Osterholm, thank you so much for your expertise and your time.

OSTERHOLM: Thank you.

TAPPER: We appreciate it.

Coming up, the challenges this pandemic has created along the Gulf Coast, as this now major Category 4 hurricane closes in.

Plus, warnings of unrest and danger from the Republican Convention. We're learning how tonight's headliner, Vice President Mike Pence, plans to use them to frame his speech -- next.

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TAPPER: Night three of the Trump show, also known as the Republican National Convention, is set to kick off in just a matter of hours.

Tonight's headliner, Vice President Mike Pence, will speak from Fort McHenry in Maryland. And sources tell CNN that he will -- quote -- "take some lumber" to the Democratic nominee, Joe Biden.

CNN's Kaitlan Collins is at Fort McHenry.

Kaitlan, this vice president isn't particularly known as an attack dog. What can we expect?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: No, he's not.

So, if Mike Pence is at an 11 tonight going after Joe Biden, that's probably what you would see from President Trump any day of the week. But we are expecting to see him try to draw this contrast between choosing the Trump/Pence ticket and also choosing the Biden/Harris ticket, something that many aides close to the president's campaign and inside the White House have said really needs to be the strong focus of the convention this week.

But, Jake, we're not expecting him to only focus on that. He's also expected to talk about the pandemic, given the fact that he is the head of the Coronavirus Task Force, but also he's going to talk about what's happening in Wisconsin, we're told.

Right now, that is in his current version of remarks. So, depending on what the vice president has to say, it's not something we have heard a lot on the White House so far.

The president has not publicly commented on the shooting yet, though we do know he has been briefed by the attorney general. So we may hear more from Pence on that tonight.

TAPPER: Kaitlan, the Hatch Act, it was signed into law in 1939. It bans federal employees from using their positions for political election reasons.

The president and vice president are exempt. But how is the White House justifying the flagrant violations of this law by Cabinet officials and White House staff and individuals holding convention events at the White House during this convention?

COLLINS: Basically, they have two defenses here.

One is, they don't really have an option for other locations, given the fact that there is a pandemic going on. And they feel like they have been constrained to being in the White House and around Washington, though we should note they have been in other places of federal property as well, and the vice president will be Fort McHenry here tonight, which is a national park.

But also the other thing is, Jake, they're not really saying that they haven't violated the Hatch Act. They're not saying that they didn't do this. They're just dismissing it and saying it doesn't really amount to a lot and it doesn't really matter.

And we have seen this play out in the Trump administration, where officials have violated the Hatch Act before, and because the president is the one responsible for reprimanding people who violate the Hatch Act, people like Kellyanne Conway, who have done it in the past, he hasn't responded in that. He's really brushed it off in ways.

So we're not seeing a lot of concern among the president's officials, even though what we are seeing is something like you have never seen the White House use in this way, so blatantly political before.

And so while administration officials may be brushing off the Hatch Act, saying that these violations aren't significant to them, they are still significant, and it does still matter to point out how they're doing this and how it does break tradition with what you have seen before.

TAPPER: I have lived long enough to know that when a standard is eroded in Washington, D.C., it almost never, ever comes back.

Kaitlan Collins at Fort McHenry, thank you so much.

You can watch Vice President Mike Pence and his speech here on CNN tonight, plus hear from South Dakota Governor Kristi Noem and second lady of the United States Karen Pence. Our special coverage begins tonight at 7:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

How the striking themes heard at the convention may be working exactly as intended.

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That's our story next.

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TAPPER: Welcome back.

In our 2020 lead: Vice President Mike Pence is expected to claim tonight that the Democrats are out of control and dangerous, a message we have heard echoed by Republican National Committee.