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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Mike Pence Headlines RNC Night Three; Interview With Former U.S. National Security Adviser John Bolton; Source: CDC Recommending Fewer People Be Tested After Pressure from the "Top" of Trump Administration; Milwaukee Bucks Boycott NBA Playoff Game After Jacob Blake Shooting. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired August 26, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: White House officials are defending President Trump's use of the White House, the people's house, as a political backdrop throughout the convention, which breaks, of course, longstanding precedent and a 1939 law called the Hatch Act that bans federal employees, exempting the president and vice president, from using their positions in government for political election purposes, as CNN's Kaitlan Collins now explains.

[16:00:10]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Tonight, Vice President Mike Pence will headline night three of the Republican Convention, where he's expected to address the pandemic and racial unrest unfolding in Wisconsin.

He will speak to the nation from Fort McHenry the site of the battle the War of 1812 that inspired Francis Scott Key to pen "The Star- Spangled Banner." Pence is expected to wade into the nation's culture wars by urging athletes to stand for the national anthem.

MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't think it's too much to ask the players in the National Football League to stand for our national anthem.

COLLINS: Kellyanne Conway and second lady Karen Pence will also speak tonight.

KAREN PENCE, SECOND LADY: It'll be an exciting night to highlight the heroes in this great country.

COLLINS: On night of the convention, Trump all but erased the longstanding line between official government business and politics.

He pardoned a Nevada man convicted of bank robbery who has since founded a nonprofit and swore in five new citizens at a naturalization ceremony, despite his restrictive stance on immigration.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You're now fellow citizens of the greatest nation the face of God's Earth. Congratulations.

COLLINS: After two Marines appeared in uniform in that video, a Marine Corps spokeswoman dismissed concerns that they were being used for political messaging, saying they were only there in their assigned place of duty.

The president's chief of staff dismissed concerns that he and top officials were abusing federal offices and property for political game.

MARK MEADOWS, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: Nobody outside of the Beltway really cares. They expect that Donald Trump is going to promote Republican values, and they would expect that Barack Obama, when he was -- office, that he would do the same for Democrats.

COLLINS: The evening also featured a rare speech from first lady Melania Trump, who broke with her husband's administration by expressing sympathy for those affected by coronavirus.

MELANIA TRUMP, FIRST LADY: I know many people are anxious, and some feel helpless. I want you to know, you are not alone.

COLLINS: It was a sharp break from the president's top economic adviser, who talked about COVID-19 as if it was in the past.

LARRY KUDLOW, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: It was awful. Health and economic impacts were tragic. Hardship and heartbreak were everywhere.

COLLINS: Coronavirus tests were not required for most guests in the Rose Garden last night, though an aide says people sitting near the president were tested.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Now, Jake, the crowd at tonight's speech is expected to be the biggest one yet of the convention, with well over 100 people.

Though it will be outside, it's still not clear if they're going to be testing all of those guests. We were required to be tested before going in tonight. The reporters were, at least.

But, of course, the crowd tonight and that size is going to pale in comparison to what we're expecting to be on the South Lawn tomorrow night for President Trump's speech.

TAPPER: They're not just talking as if the pandemics in the past. They're acting as if it's in the past.

Kaitlan Collins, thanks so much.

Joining us now, President Trump's former National Security Adviser John Bolton, who, of course, wrote a blistering insider account of his time at the White House. It's titled "The Room Where It Happened," a bestseller.

Mr. Ambassador, thanks for being here.

So, let me ask you. This is the third day of the convention. Based on what you have seen so far, do you think it is effective enough to get President Trump reelected?

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, I think it's put him on the road, that's for sure.

We don't really have experience, obviously, with virtual conventions, but conventions typically give some kind of bounce, especially in motivating those who are already supporters. It looks to me like it's well-produced.

And I think there's a real advantage to being the incumbent and coming second after the Democratic Convention. So, I think it clearly is going to help him.

TAPPER: In terms of being the incumbent, we have seen some unprecedented destruction of norms during this convention, what seem blatant violations of the Hatch Act, which bans federal employees from conducting political purposes, political actions from their government posts.

The president, of course, is exempt from that. But White House staff are on hand, as he uses the White House as a backdrop, political prop. He issued a pardon during the convention. He naturalized citizens during the convention. Videos of that ran.

You have Secretary of State Pompeo, Secretary of Homeland Security Chad Wolf playing roles in the convention.

Does this bother you?

BOLTON: Well, I don't think these are violations of the Hatch Act. I mean, I wrote on that back in the day.

I think it's unseemly. And I know that's a word you don't normally use about politics in the Trump era. But that's what people should focus on. Both parties are guilty of it over time. But it's a question of what the American people want.

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And I'm worried that this is just part of this conduct, and the convention is just part of the destruction of standards. To fight over whether it's legal or not, I think, is a mistake. It's just unseemly.

TAPPER: I can't help but think that if a Democratic president did this, Republicans would be screaming and rioting from a mountaintop.

Should more of your fellow Republicans be speaking out against this? I mean, this is now going to be a norm, theoretically. I mean, if Biden or some Democrat is elected president at some point, whether it's November or in the future, they now can accept their renomination from the White House, when Republicans can't say boo.

BOLTON: Look, it's unseemly for both parties.

But this is a case of people with short memories. I will give you an example. The left on the Democratic Party very upset about this -- in 1968, I remembered it vividly -- Dean Rusk, secretary of state, testified before the Democratic Platform Committee, and the left of the Democratic Party then was all in favor of it, because they wanted to rip lungs out about the Vietnam War.

They didn't get a chance to do it because he got a note saying that the Soviet troops had crossed the Czechoslovak border heading for Prague. But it has happened before. And I just think it was bad in both cases.

TAPPER: Sure. I mean, that was a Platform Committee literally a year before I was born, but, OK, I hear the point you're making, that it has happened two degrees.

BOLTON: Rub it in. Go ahead.

(LAUGHTER)

TAPPER: Secretary Pompeo said in his remarks that the president held China accountable on coronavirus, which I think a lot of people who have been covering this found a curious statement, because January, February, March, President Trump was not holding China accountable.

In fact, he was listening to President Xi, instead of his own health experts. What did you make of that?

BOLTON: Well, it's a false statement, as is most of the administration case on how it's handled coronavirus.

They have made a complete mess of it. And it's been a tragedy for Americans, those who have died and their families, the economic consequences. To this day, the administration does not have a coronavirus strategy.

Now, they may yet get the benefit of it. Recent polls apparently show concern with the virus diminishing as a political matter. So, they may be able to tough their way through it. But it's been -- it's just been one mistake after another.

TAPPER: I want to ask you about the fact that the Defense Department's inspector general has been called -- I don't know if he's going to do it -- to investigate whether or not the White House and specifically your replacement, National Security Adviser Robert O'Brien, retaliated against Alexander Vindman's twin brother, who also served in the White House.

He was an ethics official in the National Security Council. He's saying that he was retaliated against. What do you make of it all?

BOLTON: Well, I have just seen this in the past hour or so.

But my experience with both Alex Vindman and Yev Vindman, his brother, is that they were outstanding staffers at the NSC. And I have read the House Democrats' letter, which, on Yev Vindman's account, quotes two different efficiency reports that his lawyer in the White House -- that his supervisor in the White House Counsel's Office wrote.

And in the summer of 2019, Yev was an outstanding staffer at the NSC. And just a few months later, it looks like he needs remedial reading. That strikes me right there as evidence that either the supervisor wasn't doing his job, or that there's retaliation.

So I find this a pretty stunning development. And it'll be interesting to see what the DOD inspector general does with it, because it's hot. There's no doubt about it.

TAPPER: At the last minute last night, the Republican National Convention had to pull a speaker who had tweeted out a link to a deranged anti-Semitic conspiracy theory that even referenced the Protocol of the Elders of Zion, which was a czarist propaganda tool to drum up anti-Semitism in czarist Russia.

This isn't the first time that these conspiracy theories have made their way into the Republican Party. In recent weeks, we have two different Republican congressional nominees, one in Georgia, one in Florida, who are open conspiracy theorists, whether they're supporting QAnon or there are self-proclaimed Islamophobes celebrating the death of migrants.

Are you worried about what the Republican Party is becoming under President Trump?

BOLTON: Well, I'm worried about Trump. That's what worries me.

I think the Republican Party after this election is going to have a very serious conversation about the direction we want to go in. It will be immediate if Trump loses. But it's going to happen even if he wins.

I wish we just had a figure in the conservative movement today like William F. Buckley Jr., who used to be able to enter into these debates and say, this is just simply not acceptable for responsible conservatives to believe in.

[16:10:07]

But since there is no philosophy that governs this administration, that's how these extremists creep in. And it is disturbing.

TAPPER: Ambassador John Bolton, thank you so much.

The book again, "The Room Where It Happened: A White House Memoir."

Thank you so much.

Coming up: Vice President Mike Pence is the headliner tonight at the Republican National Convention. CNN's special coverage begins tonight at 7:00 Eastern.

And coming up: how themes of fear in this convention have sparked anger after three nights of violence in Wisconsin.

Plus: the CDC's decision, suspicious, to suddenly change its guidance for coronavirus testing, how this may impact you if you need to get tested -- plus, a revelation today that pressure on the CDC to make these changes came from the top.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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TAPPER: And we're back with the health lead today. A shocking and confusing and suspicious change from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention suggesting that a rule take effect that would have fewer people being tested for the coronavirus in the United States, fewer. The exact opposite of what so many health experts say is needed in order to identify and isolate the virus in order to save lives.

A senior federal health official telling CNN that the change is made after the pressure from the top of the Trump administration. The CDC is no longer recommending testing for people who do not have symptoms even if they've been in close contact with an infected person. Now, we know that President Trump has been lamenting that so much testing results in higher numbers of cases, a view of the virus that really makes no sense scientifically. It's just political because he thinks it makes him look bad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We test more than anybody by far. And when you test, you create cases. So we've created cases.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: You're not creating cases. Taking a test simply reveals an infection. It does not create the infection. It's like saying a pregnancy test is what creates a pregnancy. It's not.

And there is no way to sugar coat this. This move to limit testing could theoretically cost lives as a top health expert put it. People without symptoms should be tested, given the fact that the CDC estimates about half of the transmission of coronavirus in the U.S. happens before any symptoms appear.

This decision means more infected people theoretically will be walking the streets spreading the virus. This new guidance also comes despite the fact that major labs have been scaling up capacity. Quest Diagnostics, for instance, now saying it can handle double the testing it is currently running.

But the average number of testing in the U.S. has dropped, as CNN's Nick Watt reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Increasing testing --

DR. ROBERT REDFIELD, CDC DIRECTOR: Get that testing piece.

DR. DEBORAH BIRX, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS RESPONSE COORDINATOR: On the testing piece.

NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): That's been a mantra, test, trace, isolate -- not anymore? The CDC just changed its testing guidance from testing is recommended for all close contacts of persons with infection to this. If you've been in close contact but do not have symptoms, you do not necessarily need a test.

DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: These are exactly the people who should be tested. I think the CDC really needs to give a much better explanation the entire process of how this was done in the middle of the night with no explanation. It just causes more confusion.

WATT: It's coming from the top down, one senior federal health official tells CNN, from the White House.

ADMIRAL BRETT GIROIR, ASSISTANT SECRETARY, HHS: Our surge testing sites really look for asymptomatic individuals. We're trying to get appropriate testing, not less testing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it's more likely that this is an intentional effort by the administration to conceal the true extent of transmission in the numbers.

WATT: Already, in just the past month, the average number of tests per day has fallen 17 percent.

DR. CARLOS DEL RIO, EXECUTVE ASSOCIATE DEAN, EMORY UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE, GRADY HEALTH SYSTEM: You want to decrease cases by decreasing transmission, not by decreasing testing.

WATT: Nationally, the number of new cases is also falling even faster. Twenty states holding steady, 20 more seeing average case counts drop.

DEL RIO: While we're coming down, we know we're close to where we need to be. And when people say we're coming down, we're coming down from a very high peak.

WATT: And right now, actually record-high average case counts in parts of the Midwest, Iowa, Kansas, both Dakotas. And yesterday a record-high death toll down in Mississippi.

GOV. TATE REEVES (R-MS): Don't have parties with 150 to 200 people there. That's not going to work out well likely for everyone else.

WATT: Thousands of cases now on college campuses and hundreds suspended for breaking rules around social gatherings. Montclair State in New Jersey just texted students, is the next message you want to get "pack your bags and go home"?

(END VIDEOTAPE) WATT: And at North Carolina State, they just topped 500 cases among the student body. So they're now going to start moving students out of campus housing. They are going to do it very slowly so they can socially distance as they do it.

Now, finally, some good news, Jake, Moderna, potential vaccine trial phase one, it appears to be safe and also triggers an immune response in every age group including the elderly -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right, that is good news. Nick Watt, thank you so much.

I want to bring in CNN's chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

And, Sanjay, we just learned that the coronavirus task force approved these CDC changes to this rule change that Dr. Osterholm last hour says he can't understand any health reason for it. But you just spoke with Dr. Fauci who's on that task force. What did he have to tell you?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, so this task force meeting where this apparently was discussed was last Thursday. So, I was asking Dr. Fauci about this, and he said this -- I'm going to read this because I want to make sure I get it right.

He said: I was under general anesthesia in the operating room last Thursday, was not part of any discussion or deliberation regarding these new testing recommendations.

[16:20:08]

And he went on to say I'm concerned about the interpretation of these recommendations. I'm worried it will give people the incorrect assumption that asymptomatic spread is not of great concern. In fact, it is.

So, Jake, he wasn't part of the deliberations or discussions. And this is a problem, right? Because Admiral Giroir was just asked about this, and he said Dr. Fauci signed off on this. He wasn't part of these discussions. He was under -- in the operating room for one thing.

But also, he doesn't agree with this in the sense that he thinks that this may give people the incorrect assumption that asymptomatic transmission is no big deal. It is -- it is a big deal and we can talk about that. But this is worrisome. I mean, this is a clear schism, clear difference. We heard one thing from Admiral Giroir in the task force, and now, we're hearing something different from Dr. Anthony Fauci.

TAPPER: Giroir has said that he's doing everything he can to get testing up to speed, which is factually not accurate.

He also said the guidance changed because of current evidence. Do you have any idea what he's talking about? What evidence?

GUPTA: No, we don't. I mean, look, Jake, we've been reporting on this for months now, right, so we're keeping up with the evidence all the time, talking to sources, looking at pre-prints, looking at none -- even published journal articles, trying to keep up with this evidence. There isn't.

In fact, the evidence would suggest the opposite, which is that 50 percent of the spread roughly, maybe even more according to some data that's coming out now, 50 percent of that spread comes from asymptomatic people or pre-symptomatic people, people who don't yet have symptoms.

So, the idea that you wouldn't test -- because they don't know that they have the virus and they're out there potentially spreading it. The idea that you wouldn't test them flies in the face of everything. It flies in the face of what has worked in other countries. If you know one thing from public health, it is test and then trace and then figure out who those close contacts are and test them so that you can actually start to slow down the spread of the virus.

This strategy, and I've heard this from numerous people today who have called me, this could potentially worsen the trajectory of this pandemic. More people will get infected, more people will get hospitalized. And more people will die because of a decision like this, and I think that's why people are so concerned.

TAPPER: And we're trying to figure out why this decision was made. There is obviously this important context, Sanjay. President Trump, from the very beginning, thought that more people coming into this country -- remember when he went down to Atlanta and spoke at the CDC and there were infected Americans on a cruise ship and he didn't want them to come into the United States. He didn't want them to disembark because the numbers would go up. He doesn't like the numbers go up because he thinks it makes him look bad.

That's the context here. He doesn't want testing. He doesn't want it to happen. He thinks it makes him look bad.

We do not know that that's the reason that this happened. But we know of no health reason why this happened.

GUPTA: No, we know of no health reason why this happened. I think what you're suggesting is true.

And, look, Jake, you've known me for a long time, I'm a medical scientific reporter. But there's no way to disentangle the story any longer from politics. I mean, clearly, you know, this idea of the optics of this driving these decisions seems to be more and more likely what's happening and it's dangerous.

And it's the flip side as well, right? Over the weekend, there was an emergency use authorization made for convalescent plasma without adequate data despite the fact just a few days earlier that said we're not going forward to do this emergency use authorization because of lack of data. They just changed on a dime over the weekend.

The FDA commissioner who I spoke to about this sort of presented this in a way that was not correct. He said that 35 percent out of 100 will survive as a result of this therapy. That's not correct. TAPPER: Right.

GUPTA: So, there was not the data and what little data was there was not correctly presented.

These two things that have happened, Jake, just within the last couple of days. Both are very -- they don't make sense. There's no evidence to back them up. And I'm worried. I think that these are dangerous decisions that are getting made and we don't know exactly what's driving it. But it's seemingly more and more not coming from science, not coming from the scientists.

TAPPER: And we have already seen in this pandemic, decisions made that are rooted in politics and not health, not medicine, have cost Americans their lives.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Breaking news, according to the NBA, the Milwaukee Bucks are boycotting their scheduled game this afternoon? Why? We'll tell you why. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Breaking news now. NBA television has just announced that the Milwaukee Bucks are boycotting the NBA playoff game that is scheduled to happen right now. This coming after the police shooting of Jacob Blake in Wisconsin. The Orlando Magic came out for the game, but the Bucks remained in their locker room. They did not come out to the court for the game.

Let's get to CNN sports analyst Christine Brennan.

Christine, what message does it send for the players to decide as a team that they're boycotting the game?

CHRISTINE BRENNAN, CNN SPORTS ANALYST: Jake, it sends an incredibly powerful message from the NBA about how serious their players and coaches are about the shooting of Jacob Blake.

Obviously, Milwaukee Bucks, Kenosha, Wisconsin, proximity there of course cannot be denied. They're looking out for their community. They're looking out for people of color.

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