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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Coronavirus Czar Talks Testing Troubles; President Trump Visits Wisconsin. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired September 01, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: The president said -- quote -- "I feel terribly for anybody that goes through that."

He noted that the shooting of Jacob Blake is under an investigation and said it's a complicated subject.

But other than that, Pam, he mostly stuck to his message about what's happening with law enforcement and riots that we have seen in American cities.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS (voice-over): He wasn't invited, and local officials say he isn't welcome. But President Trump flew to Kenosha, Wisconsin, anyway, today.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm there for law enforcement and for the National Guard.

COLLINS: The president toured damage from riots and sat down with law enforcement, but didn't meet with the family of Jacob Blake, the black man now paralyzed from the waist down, after being shot seven times in the back by a white police officer.

Trump said he would meet with the family's pastor instead.

TRUMP: I was going to speak to the mother yesterday. I hear she's a very fine woman. I was going to speak to her, but then I heard there were a lot of lawyers on the phone. I said, I have enough lawyers in my life.

COLLINS: The night before his trip to Kenosha, Trump said police were under siege because they occasionally make mistakes and compared them to golfers who choke while trying to sink a three-foot putt.

But they choke. Just like in a golf tournament, they miss a three-foot putt.

LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS: You're not comparing it to golf, because, of course, that's what the media will say.

TRUMP: No. I'm saying people choke. INGRAHAM: People might -- because of panic.

TRUMP: People choke.

INGRAHAM: Yes.

TRUMP: And people are bad people. You have both. You have some bad people, and you have -- they choke.

COLLINS: In the same interview, he floated a conspiracy when he said people in dark shadows were controlling Joe Biden's campaign, a statement that even seemed to alarm his FOX News interviewer.

INGRAHAM: What does that mean? That sounds like conspiracy theory of dark shadows. What is that?

TRUMP: No, people that you haven't heard of. We had somebody get on a plane from a certain city this weekend. And, in the plane, it was almost completely loaded with thugs wearing these dark uniforms, black uniforms with gear, and this and that. They're on a plane.

INGRAHAM: Where is this?

TRUMP: I will tell you sometime, but I -- it's under investigation right now.

COLLINS: Given the chance to explain what he meant today, the president declined.

TRUMP: What happened is, the entire plane filled up with the looters, the anarchists, the rioters, people that obviously were looking for trouble. And the person felt very uncomfortable in the plane.

COLLINS: Trump says he's running on a law and order message, but the message only seems to apply to those who don't support him.

TRUMP: I understand they have large numbers of people that were supporters, but that was a peaceful protest. And paint is not -- and paint is a defensive mechanism.

COLLINS: Yesterday, the president defended his supporters who also used violent tactics and noted a supporter of his was killed, while expressing sympathy for another, 17-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse, who's accused of murdering two protesters.

TRUMP: He was trying to get away from them, I guess, it looks like. And he fell, and then they very violently attacked him.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Now, Pam, while the president was in Kenosha today, he announced they are going to give a million dollars to Kenosha law enforcement, $4 million to small businesses there to help them repair their businesses, though he did not say where exactly that money was coming from. And I do want to note, during that roundtable with law enforcement,

the president took a few questions from reporters. And he was asked if he personally believes that systemic racism is a problem in the U.S., given there have been peaceful protests also in the country.

He told the reporter he believe they were getting to -- quote -- "the opposite subject," and that they should be talking about the violence happening in Kenosha and in Portland and in other cities.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: All right, Kaitlan Collins, thank you so much for that.

Let's discuss all of this with CNN's Gloria Borger and "Washington Post" White House reporter Toluse Olorunnipa?

All right, thank you both for coming on.

Gloria, as Kaitlan mentioned, the president today focused primarily on thanking law enforcement. He did express some sympathy for Jacob Blake when he was asked about it. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Well, I feel terribly for anybody that goes through that. That's why I was so honored to meet the pastors. I feel terribly for anybody that goes through that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Well, that's more than we have heard from the president on the shooting, Gloria.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. He was talking about the family. He was asked about the family. And, of course, he feels terribly for the family.

But he didn't go so far as to condemn the shooting of Jacob Blake. And then he continued to do what he went to Kenosha to do, which is to say that, if it weren't for me, lots of people would be dead, that if it weren't for me making sure that extra reinforcements were sent, there would be more violence.

And the president was there today, Pamela, I think, to sort of take a so-called victory lap for himself, to say that he is the one who has made Kenosha safe. The translation of that is battleground state.

BROWN: Well, OK, so let's dive a little bit deeper into that, because, Toluse, the president when he was asked if he had even considered what the officials on the ground had said, that his visit could cause unrest, he said, no, that he believes it could increase enthusiasm, love and respect for our country.

[16:05:00]

If that was really his goal, was that accomplished today? TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Oh, well, the president's

goal is essentially to better his election chances with just about nine weeks before the election.

And we will find out soon whether or not that worked for him. He talked about the big crowds that greeted him, all of the support that he saw on the motorcade route and the idea that he's going to this battleground state with the idea of pushing this law and order message, which he and his campaign thinks work for them.

They believe that talking about law and order, talking about violence in the streets, talking about the president in this sort of strongman role helps them in their electoral chances of trying to win over some of these Midwestern states, suburban voters, trying to win back a lot of the women voters who have left his side over the past four years.

So that is the strategy here. They're playing politics, essentially, with this unrest. The president was asked about the broader issues of systemic racism, the peaceful protests that happened. He did not want to talk about that at all. He only wanted to talk about violence and law and order and the idea that Democrats would bring more violence to the country and that he would be the protector of the country and protect other people from being victims of violence.

BROWN: Right.

And it's worth noting he's visiting Wisconsin, but he's not visiting Portland, Oregon, where there have been protests there for several months. As of now, he's not visited. I don't know if that will change.

But I want to point out, because you mentioned he just wants to stay focused on violence, Toluse.

And, Gloria, it seems like he's selectively focused on the violence. He's gone after Joe Biden, saying that he hasn't focused on violence. But here's what Joe Biden said yesterday during his speech.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSEPH BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Rioting is not protesting. Looting is not protesting. Setting fires is not protesting.

None of this is protesting. It's lawlessness, plain and simple. And those who do it should be prosecuted. Violence will not bring change. It will only bring destruction.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So, the president, on the other hand, appears to be focused on condemning what he says are left-wing mobs, but not condemning the alleged Kenosha shooter charged with killing two people who was an apparent Trump supporter, Gloria.

BORGER: Right.

This is a president who wants to say that the violence is happening in Democratic cities, and it's being perpetrated by Democrats.

And that's what he wants to talk about. I mean, you heard Joe Biden very clearly condemn lawlessness, saying very clearly that riots are not protests. And so Joe Biden couldn't have made it any clearer.

But the president today was talking about himself as the savior, trying to quash all the violence, as only he thinks he can do, and he wants to turn it around, and then add fuel to the fire by talking about conspiracy theories coming out of who knows where about people in black outfits on airplanes coming to disrupt the RNC who work for Joe Biden.

What is that about? So, the one thing about Donald Trump, he has no nuance.

BROWN: Yes.

BORGER: So, what he's trying to do is very clear here, and he was disputed very clearly by Joe Biden.

But I think this fight is going to continue, Pamela.

BROWN: Absolutely.

And it is worth noting and reiterating what you point out, Toluse, what Kaitlan pointed out, when the president was asked if he believes there is systemic racism, and he said, I don't believe that. I think the police do an incredible job, and I think you have some bad apples.

And here's what he told FOX News in the sit-down interview when he compared police to an athlete that chokes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: They can do 10,000 great acts, which is what they do. And one bad apple or a choker -- you know, a choker. They choke.

Shooting the guy -- shooting the guy in the back many times, I mean, couldn't you have done something different? Couldn't you have wrestled him? I mean, in the meantime, he might have been going for a weapon, and you know there's a whole big thing there.

But they choke. Just like in a golf tournament, they miss a three-foot putt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: "Just like in a golf tournament, they miss a three-foot putt."

I mean, Toluse, this was not a characterization that he sort of made off the cuff. I mean, he has made that comparison before, a similar comparison, I should say.

OLORUNNIPA: Right. And he's continued to make that comparison since the interview last

night, even though I'm sure he's been told that that is offensive to a lot of the people who are out on the streets protesting, saying that this is not a game, that black lives actually matter more than a three-foot putt, that these are people who are being paralyzed and killed.

And they don't get to come back like an athlete after a game. So I do think that the president is making a very clear message. And he knows exactly who he's speaking to with this sort of trivializing language.

And even though he has likely been hold that this is offensive language, that has never stopped him from continuing to say things like this in the past. And I would expect us to continue to hear that kind of language going forward.

[16:10:10]

BROWN: Gloria, I just want the big picture reaction from you on this, the comments that the president made that he doesn't believe there is systemic racism in the U.S., at a time where there is a racial reckoning in this country.

BORGER: Look, I think he doesn't believe there is systemic racism.

I think what he's what he's saying is what he believes, which is, oh, there are a few bad apples.

But, in doing so, what he is doing is not paying any attention to large pieces of the population in this country who think that there is, black parents who have to tell their kids about potentially getting arrested if they're driving a car, who worry about them if they go out at night.

This is a president who seems to be stuck in another generation and doesn't -- seems to be very much out of touch with the way the country has moved, because those suburban women voters, whom he is in danger of losing and whom he's trying to get back now with this fear campaign, also believe there is systemic racism in this country, and also worry about that.

They don't want their children to grow up in a racist environment. So I think the president honestly is saying what he believes. I just think he's largely out of step with large swathes of the country right now.

And whether that will be enough to get him elected, whether that will be helpful to his base remains to be seen.

BROWN: All right, we will leave it there.

Gloria and Toluse, thank you both.

OLORUNNIPA: Thank you.

BROWN: So, why is America's testing czar saying it's not realistic to test every American for coronavirus?

Plus, President Trump tells his doctor to issue a rare statement after a new report says Vice President Pence was put on notice when Trump was mysteriously taken to the hospital last fall. Remember that?

And the statement that was put out is raising other questions.

We will be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:16:27]

BROWN: In our health lead, Admiral Brett Giroir, the coronavirus testing czar, says he doesn't want to answer any more questions about when every American will be able to get a test.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

AMB. BRETT GIROIR, HHS ASSISTANT SECRETARY: It's great to talk about a utopian kind of idea where everybody has a test every day and we can do that. I don't live in a utopian world. I live in the real world. And the real world had no tests for this new disease when this first started.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BROWN: Meanwhile, other members say aggressive testing is the way to find asymptomatic infections at universities, which will be key as colleges across the country have seen more than 20,000 confirmed cases, and a safe effective vaccine could be months away as CNN's Nick Watt reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Three potential vaccines now in crucial phase three human trials here in the U.S. but the FDA's suggestion one could be approved before those trials are over now raising more than eyebrows.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: You don't want a vaccine to be available widely to the American public unless it's been shown to be safe and effective.

WATT: The FDA commissioner now intimating he'd consider resigning rather than green-light a vaccine under political pressure.

DR. STEPHEN HAHN, FDA COMMISSIONER: I think all options are on the table. With respect, I hope we won't be in that position.

WATT: such seismic statements now necessary because through previous misstatements and political pressure --

DR. AMY COMPTON-PHILLIPS, CHIEF CLINICAL OFFICER, PROVIDENCE HEALTH SYSTEM: We've started eroding the trust that we have always had in these otherwise incredibly professional institutions. You can't just have the vaccine. You got to get it in people for it to work. So trust is a critical element to make that happen.

WATT: While we wait, nationally new case counts are falling from a great height. Florida finally allowing some visitors into nursing homes again.

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): They just would like to be able to say good-bye or to hug somebody. It was, you know --

WATT: But there's a knot in the heartland where average new case counts are rising now, nearly doubled in South Dakota in just a week. The White House Coronavirus Task Force just warned Iowa it has the highest rate of cases in the nation, advising mask mandates across the state, bars must be closed and a comprehensive plan for college towns. More than 20,000 confirmed cases and counting at colleges in at least 36 states as students return.

DR. DEBORAH BIRX, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS RESPONSE COORDINATOR: The only way to find them in the university setting is doing the aggressive testing.

WATT: New York City just pushed back in-person classes by ten days and announced it'll test some K-12 staff and students monthly. Hardly aggressive.

Meanwhile, the president's been denigrating Dr. Anthony Fauci, one of the nation's most trusted voices on this virus.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I get along with him, but every once in a while he'll come up with one where I'll say where did that come from? I inherited him.

FAUCI: I think that's kind of a distraction to pit me against the president. We're all on the same team.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WATT: Now, remember that surge across the Sunbelt in the summer that was sparked by crowds Memorial Day weekend? Well, we have another holiday weekend coming up. And Dr. Fauci and others are warning us that how we all behave over Labor Day is going to be crucial when it comes to what the fall is going to look like with COVID-19 -- Pam.

[16:20:03]

BROWN: The fall when we're also expecting the flu to become an issue.

All right. Thanks so much, Nick Watt. We appreciate it.

And I wanted to bring in CNN chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, to discuss all of this.

Great to see you, Sanjay.

Let's start with what Admiral Giroir said. He said it's utopian to think everybody should get a test every day. First of all, who is making that argument that everyone should get tested every day? And what is a realistic goal, a realistic goal, that hasn't been achieved yet as it pertains to testing?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. I think that's a -- that's a really good point.

First of all, it is worth reminding people that, you know, major league sports, some of these leagues and the White House do testing every day on many, many people. So, this isn't a total fantasy land. That does happen in sectors of our society. And I think people are right to say, well, why is that just reserved for the White House and major league sports? What about the rest of the country, essential workers, people who are trying to get back to work, schools, nursing homes, things like that?

BROWN: Right, my husband was trying to get a test, and he was told he had to pay $500 to get the results expedited. Otherwise he had to wait five to six business days. It's just -- there seems to be inconsistency across the board when it comes to that.

GUPTA: Yeah. It's very unreasonable for a lot of people in terms of how they can still get tested or the difficulties with getting testing like your husband. Eight months into this now, that's still the challenge.

The thing -- and you and I have both spoken to Admiral Giroir about this, Pamela. And what I can't figure out is, do we say, hey, look, we're not doing that kind of mass testing because we don't have the technology? Or do we not have the technology because we didn't place a premium on mass testing? That's what I still can't quite figure out. Are we just not there yet because we don't think it's important? Or are we just not there yet?

It is critical to do more testing. I think every public health official says testing is the key in terms of trying to change the trajectory of this pandemic. People who spread this virus may not know it.

BROWN: Right. So, let's talk about this, because I still think the average American is confused about if they should get tested, where they should go to get tested, where they should go to get results back within a two to three-day window because as we know after that, there's no point. Dr. Anthony Fuci this morning said there is no doubt asymptomatic people can and should be tested.

But then you have Dr. Scott Atlas, Trump's latest COVID adviser. He is discouraging testing for individuals with no symptoms. Even the CDC now says not everyone who wants to be tested should be tested.

Are you surprised there is still this mixed messaging eight months into this?

GUPTA: I'm surprised. I'm disappointed and, you know, I think it's got to be very frustrating for people listening right now. I was doing shoots today, Pamela, and there are people out there who are making decisions on behalf of large communities who are still very confused by this. Do we test asymptomatics or not?

Let me show you what I think are important numbers and hopefully people can come to their own sort of thinking on this. What we know is that about 40 percent of people who contract this infection don't have symptoms. They are asymptomatic.

But we know that about 50 percent of the transmission that's occurring is in people who don't have symptoms or don't yet have symptoms. The point is that a lot of the spread is happening in this country from people who don't know they have the virus. They don't have any symptoms. That's who you've got to test.

Some would argue, Pamela, that symptomatic people, people who are sick, coughing, sneezing, not feeling well, should stay home. It's the asymptomatic people who unbeknownst to them may be carrying the virus and spreading it. So, asymptomatic people do need to be tested. I hope that makes sense. And it's too bad that it's still so muddy for people.

BROWN: Yeah, it is. And you heard Dr. Birx there say, look, colleges, you know, these areas schools are opening, there needs to be aggressive testing. And yet there is still this mixed messaging.

And you're right. I mean, people who have symptoms are supposed to stay home. It's the ones who could be out spreading it to the vulnerable, that's the concern.

GUPTA: That's right.

BROWN: I also want to talk about this idea of herd immunity, because as you know, Dr. Scott Atlas denied reports the administration is considering that as a COVID-19 response. But an administration official told CNN all of the policies he has pushed for are in the vein of herd immunity. It seems you can deny for one herd immunity, but you can still push for other policies that have that effect.

GUPTA: Yes, I think that's right. And, you know, I think he has actually talked about herd immunity, not just policies of herd immunity, but he's actually talked about herd immunity in the past. First of all, herd immunity is not the bad thing. We want mass immunity for people.

But the idea of getting it through a vaccine versus just letting a natural infection spread like wildfire I think are the two sort of things that people are thinking about. The vaccine obviously, if you have a safety and effective vaccine is a good way to get to herd immunity.

The estimates are that between 1.5 million to 2 million people would die.

[16:25:03]

Hospitals would become overwhelmed. And it would also -- even at a million infections a week, it would take four years to develop herd immunity. But you're right. I want you to listen to this. Dr. Scott Atlas, who

has the president's ear lately, he was asked about herd immunity, and this is what he said recently.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DR. SCOTT ATLAS, TRUMP'S COVID ADVISER: I'm not sure if they fabricated it or if someone told them a lie. But there's never been any advocacy of a herd immunity strategy coming from me to the president, to anyone in the administration, to the task force, to anyone I've spoken to. The president does not have a strategy advocating herd immunity. The task force does not have a strategy advocating herd immunity.

There is no change in any kind of strategy that I've seen. I mean, the whole thing is an overt lie. But this is Washington.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GUPTA: So you listen to that, Pamela, and you may say, look, so where did this come from? He's completely distancing himself from herd immunity. So where did this come from?

Well, it turns out it came from Dr. Scott atlas himself. Listen to him, this was back a couple months ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ATLAS: Those who are not at risk to be -- to die or have a serious hospital requiring illness, we should be fine with letting them get infected, generating immunity on their own. And the more immunity in the community, the better we can eradicate the threat of the virus including the threat to people who are vulnerable. That's what herd immunity is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: That's what he was advocating for back then. So when he says he's never advocated for this, that was clear defense of letting the infection just spread through the community. And that's the concern, Pamela.

BROWN: Yeah. And it's interesting. He said in the interview today that he's disgusted but didn't advocate. Seems like semantics.

Thank you so much, Sanjay. I appreciate you coming on.

GUPTA: OK, you got it.

BROWN: Well, nearly six months after Breonna Taylor's death, the only person charged after the incident, her boyfriend, now says police did it for only one reason. That's next.

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[16:30:00]