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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Interview With Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro; Interview With Sen. Mazie Hirono (D-HI); President Trump Refuses to Commit to Peaceful Transfer of Power. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired September 24, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Moments ago, President Trump sowing more doubt about the election, after he made an alarming statement that has set off a wave of anxiety about the election and the future of the United States.

President Trump is refusing to commit to a peaceful transfer of power if he loses to Joe Biden in November, setting the stage to defy a core principle of American democracy dating back centuries.

And earlier this afternoon, White House Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany attempting to clean up that statement. Listen to what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president will accept the results of a free and fair election. He will accept the will of the American people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So, she did not define what the White House considers free and fair. And that is important, because just listen to what the president said moments ago.

The president said that he does not know if the election can be honest.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We want to make sure the election is honest. And I'm not sure that it can be. I don't -- I don't know that it can be with this whole situation, unsolicited ballots. They're unsolicited, millions being sent to everybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And just a quick fact-check on that.

In 41 out of the 50 states, voters have to request a mail-in ballot, so it doesn't just go to them unsolicited in a majority of states. And, as CNN's Kaitlan Collins reports, the president's comments follow months of President Trump casting doubt on the legitimacy of the election, stoking fears of fraud, without providing any evidence, and mounting an aggressive legal strategy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Trump facing swift pushback today after he refused to commit to a peaceful transfer of power if he loses in November.

TRUMP: We're going to have to see what happens. You know that. I have been complaining very strongly about the ballots.

COLLINS: Though the White House trying to spin what Trump said on camera, even Republican Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell issued a tweet saying there will be an orderly transition in January should Trump lose to Joe Biden.

But McConnell and other GOP lawmakers refuse to call Trump out by name and some even deflected to Hillary Clinton.

SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): Hillary Clinton said Joe Biden should not accept the result of the election under any circumstances.

QUESTION: But she's not the candidate. The president is the candidate. He's not committing to accept them.

TILLIS: Then, how many people have you asked on the Democratic side whether or not they would support the outcome of the election? Once you do that...

(CROSSTALK)

COLLINS: Former Vice President Joe Biden quickly hit back at Trump.

JOSEPH BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What country are we in? Look, I -- he says the most irrational things.

COLLINS: It was only weeks ago that Attorney General Bill Barr scoffed at the idea that Trump would not cede power, telling "The Chicago Tribune": "I have never heard any of that crap. I'm the attorney general. I think I would have heard about it."

For months, Trump has tried to cast down on the outcome of the election.

TRUMP: These ballots are a horror show.

Because the only way they're going to win is by a rigged election.

I have to see. Look, I have to see. No, I'm not going to just say yes. I'm not going to say no, and I didn't last time either.

COLLINS: Though he's claimed that mail-in voting would be rife with fraud, his FBI director testified today there's no evidence of that. CHRISTOPHER WRAY, FBI DIRECTOR: Now, we have not seen, historically,

any kind of coordinated national voter fraud effort in a major election, whether it's by mail or otherwise.

COLLINS: As President Trump faces blowback for his comments, he was loudly booed as he paid his respects to Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg at the Supreme Court today.

CROWD: Vote him out! Vote him out!

COLLINS: Trump will announce his nominee to replace Justice Ginsburg this Saturday, and said he wants them confirmed before the election in case there's a dispute over who won.

TRUMP: We need nine justices. You need that. With the unsolicited millions of ballots that they're sending, it's a scam. It's a hoax.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Now, because of what the president said yesterday, today, the Senate passed a resolution reaffirming their commitment to a peaceful transition of power, as mandated by the Constitution.

And Senator Joe Manchin, a Democrat of West Virginia, was the lawmaker who sponsored that resolution. And he said he believed it was a shame that they had to pass something like that because of what the president said yesterday, calling it into question.

BROWN: All right, Kaitlan Collins, thanks so much for that.

And joining me now is Democratic Senator Mazie Hirono of Hawaii.

She sits on the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Senator, thank you for coming on.

The first question off the bat, in the wake of the president's comments, are there discussions going on among Democrats on Capitol Hill to prepare for the possibility that President Trump does refuse a peaceful transfer of power if he loses?

SEN. MAZIE HIRONO (D-HI): The president says a lot of things with no facts.

So, I consider this yet another distraction, as we spend a lot of time wringing our hands about what he's saying. But we should be focusing on this next nominee.

[16:05:02]

BROWN: Well, hold on. You don't see it as a concern that the president said this?

HIRONO: Oh, he's made a promise that, as far as he's concerned, if he loses the election, there will be no peaceful transition of power.

So, in his view, if he loses, it's a rigged election. He's been very busy setting that up.

BROWN: So, as a senator, you're in a unique position. What are you going to do about that?

Are there discussions on Capitol Hill about that possibility and what you're going to do about it? Because the president has made it clear time and time again, not just with these latest comments, that, if he loses, he has said that the election is rigged, he won't commit to a peaceful transfer of power.

You, as a senator, what are you going to do about that?

HIRONO: We already passed a resolution that Joe Manchin said, it's a shame that we even have to do it. There are Republicans trying to explain the president's behavior.

But, first and foremost, we have a Supreme Court nomination process about to be rammed down our throats. Everybody should be aware, the American people should know, the real reason that he wants this nominee to go through so fast is because he wants that person in place on the Supreme Court to hear the November 10 arguments on the Affordable Care Act.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: OK. And we're going to get to the court.

HIRONO: OK.

BROWN: I just want to stick to the topic at hand, because this is something that people are really interested in.

And I don't just want to move on. The fact that the president of the United States is saying this, you said -- you talked about the resolution. Practically, what will that resolution do, besides sending a symbolic message today? What will it actually do if that scenario happens?

HIRONO: If the president refuses to leave, there will be a court challenge. That's probably how it's going to be resolved. He knows that.

That's another reason that he says he wants this nominee to be on the Supreme Court as soon as possible, in case he mounts a legal challenge to the election. That's what's going to happen.

In the meantime, the real issue here, as far as I'm concerned, is just the tip of the iceberg with this nominee is. What's going to happen to everybody's health care? This will be a nominee who will hear the case.

BROWN: And, again, we're going to get to that. We're going to get to that.

HIRONO: OK.

BROWN: I promise you, we're going to get to that. But, again, I want to stick to the topic...

HIRONO: Can we get to it, Pamela?

BROWN: Yes, we're going to get right to the topic at hand, though, because people want to hear what you have to say, as a United States senator on this, and then we're going to get to that, because I do want to ask you.

(CROSSTALK)

HIRONO: OK.

BROWN: President Trump and some Republicans are pointing to the fact that Hillary Clinton, in an August interview, said Joe Biden should not concede the election if it's too close.

What is your response to that?

HIRONO: My response to that is, Hillary Clinton is not a candidate. Joe Biden is.

So the Republicans' obsession with whatever Hillary says is just that, an obsession. Why don't we listen to what the candidates are saying?

You have one candidate who is already setting up a possibility, if he loses, of a legal challenge. And then you have another candidate saying, the election is not rigged. There's no evidence of that that Trump is putting forth.

And so you have the other candidate, Joe Biden, saying he will abide by the will of the people.

But know this, Pamela, that there is voter suppression. The Republican Party is spending 420 million to try to make it harder for people to vote. There's another $100 in dark money that's going to be there to help the Republicans try to keep as many people from voting as possible.

I think our voters care about that. That's clear and present going on right now.

BROWN: And the voters want to also have confidence in this election and the results.

HIRONO: Yes.

BROWN: And the argument could be made that comments casting doubt on it could be a form of voter suppression.

And I want to get to...

HIRONO: Of course.

BROWN: ... as I promised, what's going on with the president's Supreme Court pick.

You are on the Senate Judiciary Committee, which will be holding hearings, which would hold hearings on the Supreme Court pick.

The chairman, Lindsey Graham, Senator Lindsey Graham, says, this just reveals the importance of having a full court, nine justices, before Election Day, so that they can weigh in on this matter.

What do you think of that?

HIRONO: The reason that they need to have somebody on the Supreme Court as soon as possible is for that person to hear the arguments on the Affordable Care case on November 10 and to vote down the Affordable Care Act.

That is what is going on.

And the president has long been against the Affordable Care Act, which provides health care to millions of people, including 100 million people with preexisting conditions. That has been on the top of his hit list for a -- well, ever since he got elected.

And then it's also been on the hit list for the Republicans. So now they have a chance, with this Supreme Court nominee, to put somebody in there who will strike down the Affordable Care Act.

The American people know that that is what's going on. That is why the Republicans are doing a 180 on the so-called McConnell rule that he articulated in 2016.

And now they're turning themselves into pretzels trying to justify them going against their own word.

So, how can you trust people who can't even keep their word about a Supreme Court nomination process? So, there you have it.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Yes.

I mean, is there anything, given your views on this, that you can do?

[16:10:01]

HIRONO: Oh, one of the biggest things I'm doing is to lend my voice to alert the American people that their health care is at jeopardy, and they should rise up and say, wait a minute, this whole Supreme Court nomination process shouldn't even be happening right now.

Republicans should stick with their word. That is what I am doing.

You know what? I tell you, I have faith in the American people that, when they figure out that their health care is in jeopardy with this nominee, and they can stop that by one, raising their voices, one hopes that even Republicans, they will listen to their constituents.

But, if not, then we will have a situation where they will ram through a nominee and steal two Supreme Court seats, so that the president and the Republicans can get their way. And I should say -- think that there will be consequences.

BROWN: Just really quickly, on the...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: ... what do you say to the Republicans, like Mitt Romney, who has pushed back against the president historically, who say it's his constitutional right to do this?

HIRONO: It was also a constitutional right for President Obama to nominate Merrick Garland.

And there was no -- there's nothing in the Constitution that says that Mitch McConnell could make up his own rule back then and then do a 180 today.

So, they should follow their own rule. At the same time, they should be really clear with American public as to what they're really doing. And what they're doing is to place a very conservative person -- doesn't matter man or woman -- that is why the chair of the committee, Lindsey Graham, has said the Republicans on the committee will vote for this nominee.

The nominee hasn't even been named. It doesn't matter to them. It will be somebody who will strike down the Affordable Care Act. And that is something that the people of this country should know.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: All right, Democratic Senator Mazie Hirono of Hawaii, thank you so much.

HIRONO: Sure.

BROWN: I appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective, Senator.

HIRONO: You're welcome.

BROWN: And I want to get back to the president sowing doubt about the election.

And joining me now is the Democratic attorney general of Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro.

Josh, thanks for coming on.

As you just heard my conversation with the senator there, some senators are brushing off the president's comments, particularly Republicans. They say he always says crazy stuff, there's nothing to worry about.

But this is not just words. You're actually in court battles right now with the Trump campaign over mail-in voting.

JOSH SHAPIRO (D), PENNSYLVANIA ATTORNEY GENERAL: Yes, that's exactly right.

And while I tend to discount the president's words, when he does attack our voting system in court, as he has done here in Pennsylvania, to make it harder for people to actually cast their vote, then we respond, and we go to court, as we did in this case, and said to the president, OK, Mr. President, you keep alleging this fraud, you keep saying that there are problems. Well, put up or shut up.

Give us the evidence that back up those claims that you make.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: OK, can I ask you on that -- I'm sorry.

I don't mean to interrupt, but I do want to actually ask you on that, because it's relevant, because the White House today is pointing to nine ballots that were found discarded in Pennsylvania that were supposed to be cast for President Trump. It is a highly unusual statement from DOJ.

FBI Director Christopher Wray said today there has not been any kind of coordinated voter fraud effort. But is this the kind of thing in your view that undermines faith and mail-in voting? Even if fraud is statistically insignificant, examples of it, could it hurt the faith in the system?

SHAPIRO: Yes, not at all, Pamela.

And let me finish the other thought and address your question. In the court proceeding, where the president has sued us, he was not able to provide any evidence of fraud, and the judge at that point stayed the case.

As to the issue that you just raised which came out a couple hours ago in the Middle District of the United States, United States Attorney Dave Freed. I applaud Dave Freed for doing his job. All law enforcement should be doing their job to ensure that every legal eligible vote is counted.

Now, we will have to wait and see exactly what United States attorney Freed and the FBI and the local district attorney came up with. But I think that should give the public confidence in knowing that all of us in law enforcement are doing our job to make sure that legal eligible votes are counted.

BROWN: So, Pennsylvania Republicans are pushing back against this report, which claims they were strategizing how to overturn the result of Trump loses in your state.

The article in "The Atlantic" says Republicans have been looking into what powers they would have to declare the results tainted and appoint pro-Trump electors if Biden wins or if the results are unclear.

Have you heard anything about this? Are you worried that this could actually happen? SHAPIRO: Yes.

No, I'm not worried. Look, Pamela, we can't take the bait, right? Every single day, there's more noise coming from Donald Trump and his enablers. But I look at law. And Pennsylvania law is quite clear.

[16:15:04]

The popular vote here in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania determines who the electors are, plain and simple.

And so, the president and his enablers and those people trying to prop him up, they can say whatever they want to the media. But at the end of the day, we are a nation of laws. And the rule of law will govern the outcome of this process. More specifically, the people will govern the outcome of this process. The president is powerless when it comes to who is elected president. At the end of the day, the people are the ones who have a say.

The broader issue here, Pamela, and why you read these articles in "The Atlantic" and you see these tweets from the president and all this stuff, is that it is a coordinated effort to try and make people feel powerless, to make them feel like their vote doesn't count in our democracy. But at the end of the day, it's the people who will decide who the next president is.

BROWN: Right, but I just want to ask you about it because --

SHAPIRO: And law enforcement officials like me are going to make sure that process is free and fair and that a rightful and just outcome occurs.

BROWN: OK. So, two things, because I just want to make sure we're really honing in on this. First of all, you call it noise. And ultimately, you're right. The president doesn't have control over the will of the voter and outcome of all these votes.

But are you concerned that the rhetoric that the president is using his position to suppress the vote because of the message that it could send to voters that their vote doesn't matter, it's not going to get through, that kind of thing? I want to ask you that first.

SHAPIRO: Yeah. Look, it is completely reckless. And the idea that it's coming from our commander-in-chief, from the president of the United States, it's outrageous. I heard the president say I think earlier today it was, Pamela, you reported on it, that, you know, ballots are a disaster, referring, I guess, to these mail-in votes.

Ballots are our democracy. That is exactly how our system functions by people casting their ballot and choosing the direction of our country. And that's exactly what's going to happen by mail. It's what's going to happen November 3rd.

And we are going to do everything in our power here in Pennsylvania, I am going to do everything in my power to make sure every vote is secure, protected and counted. BROWN: And let me just ask you this, though, on the mail-in ballots.

SHAPIRO: Yeah.

BROWN: Do you think the White House has a point at all that it is, you know, fertile ground for a lot of issues to happen, potential fraud? I pointed to those nine ballots that were found discarded in Pennsylvania that were supposed to be cast for President Trump. Because as you know, there's that example, but then in the primaries in Pennsylvania, it took a long time to count all the ballots, and there were some uncertainty and concern that every ballot wasn't being counted.

Do you think the White House has a point there that there is -- that there could be potentially more issues with this influx of mail-in voting this election?

SHAPIRO: Not at all. And let me explain why.

First off, as it relates to those nine ballots, let's way until United States Attorney Freed has fully documented these issues and we can fully understand them. And then I'm happy to respond in a more fulsome way.

As it relates to the count, I think every American hopes that the count is accurate. And if that accuracy takes an extra 24 hours to accomplish, then we should all want that. We should take a deep breath and make sure that the right person is certified the winner in each of these races.

Just because we don't know at 8:01 p.m., as the president keeps suggesting we ought to know, doesn't mean that there's fraud. It means that these county election officials are doing their job. They're methodically counting the ballots. They're doing what they need to do in order to insure that the proper person is declared the victor. That's what we should want in this country.

BROWN: I just want to get from you a pledge that the election in Pennsylvania will be fair, balanced, and every vote will be counted properly.

SHAPIRO: Pamela, I'm doing everything in my power as attorney general of the commonwealth of Pennsylvania to ensure that, regardless of who a voter's choice is, whether they support Donald Trump or Joe Biden. Every legal eligible voter, whether they vote by mail, whether they show up at an early voting center, or whether they vote in person on November 3rd should have their ballot counted.

The challenge we have, of course, right now is that the president continually sues us in order to try to undermine that process and make it harder for people to vote. So, I'm going to do everything in my power right now to beat back those attempts by the president, to sow doubt in our election process. And what I want the people in Pennsylvania to do, what I want the American people to do is just simply make a plan to vote, and get out there and choose your preferred candidate. BROWN: OK, Democratic Attorney General of Pennsylvania Josh Shapiro

-- thank you, Josh.

SHAPIRO: Thank you.

BROWN: And coming up, one state is banning all outdoor gatherings for people of a certain age because of coronavirus spikes.

[16:20:02]

Plus, outrage and frustration explodes across the country after a grand jury doesn't issue any charges for the death of Breonna Taylor. What her family is planning to do next to try to get justice.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: In our health lead now, New York state's Democratic Governor Andrew Cuomo is openly admitting he doesn't trust the president when it comes to a vaccine. So, he's putting together a task force to review any vaccine the federal government approves.

The president has suggested he might reject stricter guidelines set by the FDA for a vaccine as CNN's Erica Hill reports.

[16:25:04]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. STEPHEN HAHN, FDA COMMISSIONER: Science will guide our decisions. FDA will not permit any pressure from anyone to change that.

ERICA HILL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A straightforward pledge as the FDA works to boost confidence in a vaccine, even considering tougher standards for emergency use authorization.

The president's reaction?

DONALD TRUMP, PREISDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It sounded extremely political. Why would they do this when we come back with these great results? And ultimately, the White House has to prove it.

DR. ALI KHAN, DEAN, COLLEGE OF PUBLIC HEALTH, UNIVERSITY OF NEBRASKA MEDICAL CENTER: We don't need an election day vaccine. We need a safe, effective and trustworthy vaccine.

HILL: Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar batting cleanup.

ALEXANDER AZAR, HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: Politics will play no role whatsoever in the approval of a vaccine. The president has been clear, I've been clear, FDA has been clear, science will drive this. FDA is going to make the call whether a vaccine is safe and effective.

HILL: New information suggesting the virus became more contagious, though not more lethal as CDC reports more than 20 percent of confirmed cases between June and August were people in their 20s.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASE: The only way we're going to end this is if everybody pulls together.

HILL: Officials in Colorado just banned all gatherings, even outdoors for anyone age 18 to 22 in Boulder. Colorado is among 21 states seeing new cases rise over the past week.

DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: We squandered our mer. We went into the summer with 20,000 new cases a day. And we're now double that.

HILL: Some of the highest spikes in Minnesota and Wisconsin. The vice president will visit both states today. Better news in Ohio and Indiana.

GOV. ERIC HOLCOMB (R), INDIANA: We are moving in the right direction.

HILL: Masks still required in the Hoosier state through mid-October but restaurants, bars and nightclubs can open at full capacity this weekend.

Meantime, new signs the economic recovery is slowing. Another 870,000 Americans filed for first time unemployment benefits last week.

AUSTAN GOOLSBEE, ECONOMICS PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO BOOTH SCHOOL OF BUSINESS: You've got the K-shaped recovery with some people doing well and millions of people really struggling. We're going to -- we're going to live with that for sometime.

HILL: Tennessee out with a sobering look at the pandemic's impact on children, estimating 50 percent decrease in reading proficiency, a 65 percent dip in math skills for third graders since schools moved online last March.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HILL: And an interesting announcement from United Airlines today. We know both the airline industry and tourism have suffered significantly with the pandemic. Well, United said starting October 15th, passengers flying out of San Francisco into Hawaii, they're going to offer rapid tests to those passengers that could help them avoid a mandatory 14- day quarantine upon landing in Hawaii, Pamela.

BROWN: All right. Thanks so much, Erica Hill, appreciate it.

Joining me now is CNN chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Good to see you, Sanjay.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, good to see you.

BROWN: I want to start with President Trump. He says the White House must approve any changes to vaccine standards that the FDA proposes. What sort of changes are expected from the FDA and why are they proposing it now?

GUPTA: Well, so, with regard to the vaccine trial, there's two things that the FDA really puts forth in terms of guidelines, how effective does it need to be to qualify for an authorization. They say it's got to be at least 50 percent effective roughly. And then what they're now talking about as well, how do you prove this is safe?

And what the FDA was expected to put forth was that in order to show that this is safe, we should wait two months after the vaccine or two shots of the vaccine are given to basically show that people aren't developing side effects. That's based on -- you know, that's when most side effects occur, they say within two months, let's wait that long.

That's what's become the point of contention now, because the president sort of -- he sort of telegraphed that maybe he wouldn't approve that sort of guideline from the FDA. It's a really bizarre situation, Pamela. I haven't heard anything quite like this.

I got a chance to ask Dr. Anthony Fauci what he thought. Could this happen? What would allow safety protocols to not be followed? Here is how he put it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FAUCI: The vaccine is so overwhelmingly effective that you would say the risk benefit of having adverse events override the benefit of getting a 98 percent effective vaccine earlier rather than waiting 60 days, that's something that even we scientists say, you know, we should really take a look at that. You might want to shorten that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: So, Pamela, what he's basically saying is, look, if this thing is so effective, he said 98 percent effective, which it's not going to be. That's not what anyone expects it to be. But he basically said, look, if for some reason that's what the data is showing, then it might be unethical to wait two months. You should start giving the vaccines as quickly as possible to people at that point. That's the risk-benefit analysis.

But I think the idea of not going through safety protocols is something that most health officials -- they think that's a bad idea.

BROWN: Well, and can the White House actually overrule the FDA on this as the president claims? Do you know?

GUPTA: Well, I didn't know last night when I heard the president first say this, so I spent a good chunk of the day sort of researching this.

[16:30:00]