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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump Claims He Could Override FDA on Stricter Vaccine Standards; Kentucky Governor Calls on State AG to Share Grand Jury Transcript in Breonna Taylor Case. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired September 24, 2020 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's the risk- benefit analysis.

[16:30:02]

But I think the idea of not going through safety protocols is something that most health officials -- they think that's a bad idea.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Well, and can the White House actually overrule the FDA on this as the president claims? Do you know?

GUPTA: Well, I didn't know last night when I heard the president first say this, so I spent a good chunk of the day sort of researching this, and talking to all sorts of people. The answer is yes but it's a little convoluted. Here's what happens -- the FDA, they have guidelines they want to put forth.

As you probably know, Pamela, if you're putting new guidelines, it has to be approved by OMB, the office of management and budget. They oversee all new guidelines. They are part of the executive branch of government.

It's in that relationship that the president could have influence on OMB, basically saying don't approve these new guidelines that the FDA is saying. The FDA is saying we should wait two months, they can say, well, you don't have to approve those guidelines. We're not going to wait two months.

So, technically speaking, he could -- the president could have influence over this. Again, this is something I wanted to get Dr. Fauci's take on. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: What would you do if you really felt with regard to this critical issue of the vaccine that for political reasons they were not abiding by FDA guidelines that made sense?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: If the FDA career scientists come out and say this is what we should do, these are respected, trained people who are much better at models and statistics and all that other stuff than any of us are. If they look at it and say we really feel strongly we should go this way, I would back the scientists. I would have to do that as a scientist. I would express that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: So look, it may come down to that, Pamela, this idea FDA scientists are saying we need to wait this two-month period, we need to make sure we have the safety data. If people like Dr. Fauci and others say we don't think it passes muster, they may raise their hand and say you've got to slow down. It's not ready yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: There's so much movement and discussion about the vaccine and concern about politics. This is just another layer to all of that. I want to talk also about the CDC report that found in June through August people in their 20s accounted for more than 20 percent of confirmed coronavirus cases.

What does that tell you?

GUPTA: I think it really sort of reflects at the beginning of this pandemic, you know, a lot of people, especially very young people, were primarily at home. We went into this pause mode. You have little kids -- I have kids older than your kids but all of our kids primarily at home. As they started to become more mobile, the likelihood of becoming exposed to the virus has gone up.

Also in the beginning, there was very little testing available. There's still not enough testing available. But in the beginning, only people who are symptomatic and people particularly vulnerable were getting tested. Now we're starting to make some of those tests available to other people, including younger people, as they are going to universities and stuff.

Again, I don't think there's enough testing still but I think those two things are driving it. Increased mobility and getting testing more expanded to other populations.

BROWN: Yeah. But now there's concern. You see those numbers. There's an uptick in 21 states. We're heading into colder climate in many states, you know, where people are going to be indoors, maybe let their guards down. I mean, this is not the time to do that. And I think these numbers reinforce that.

You were sounding the alarm over the summer and now we see those numbers. And now, you're sounding the alarm heading into the fall and winter, and people should heed that warning.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you so much.

GUPTA: Thanks, Pamela.

BROWN: What Breonna Taylor's family wants to know from the Kentucky attorney general after a grand jury did not issue any charges directly related to her death.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [16:38:40]

BROWN: Well, today, the governor of Kentucky, a Democrat, is renewing his call on the state's attorney general, a Republican, to publicly release the grand jury transcript looking at Breonna Taylor's death.

And he is not alone. Breonna Taylor's family and community activists also want to know how the grand jury determined no officer should face charges for killing the 26-year-old. What evidence was shared and what was not.

CNN's Jason Carroll is digging into that question in Louisville, Kentucky, as protests continue across the country.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Anger, frustration, outrage.

PROTESTERS: Black lives matter! Say her name! Breonna Taylor!

CARROLL: As protesters took to the streets in cities across the country from Atlanta to Colorado.

And in Louisville, Kentucky, where protests took a dangerous turn when two police officers were shot overnight.

Cameras were there as the gunfire erupted. Louisville police say the violence resulted in more than 100 arrests and more than a dozen businesses looted. The city's mayor calling for calm ahead of tonight's curfew.

MAYOR GREG FISCHER (D), LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY: We never had control over what attorney general or the grand jury would do.

[16:40:01]

We don't have control over what the FBI will do with its investigation. We do have control over what happens next in our city.

CARROLL: Attorneys for Breonna Taylor's family say the grand jury's decision not to pursue criminal charges against any of the three officers in connection to Taylor's death was an assault on justice. The only charges leveled were against former detective Brett Hankison who is facing three counts of wanton endangerment in the first degree after some of the shots he fired entered a neighboring apartment, endangering those inside.

Hankison turned himself in late Wednesday and was released after posting $15,000 bail.

BENJAMIN CRUMP, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: They are devastated, they are outraged, and most of all they are heart broken.

CARROLL: Breonna Taylor's family attorney now says Kentucky's attorney general should release transcripts of the grand jury so the public can see what evidence was presented and what wasn't.

CRUMP: The fact that Daniel Cameron did not apparently present at all any evidence about why the police were there even in the first place executing this dangerous, unconstitutional, we feel, unjustifiable no knock warrant that was based on a lie.

CARROLL: The governor of Kentucky also calling for more transparency in the case.

GOV. ANDY BESHEAR (D), KENTUCKY: The challenge here is that the facts and the evidence have not been shared with the public. So I've asked the attorney general at this point, given that they have announced they are not pursuing charges, at least in one direction, to post it all online.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL: And Breonna Taylor's mother has posted her first reaction to what happened with the grand jury. She posted an image of her daughter on Instagram with the #thesystemhasfailedBreonna.

In terms of transparency, Pamela, Louisville's mayor has come out and said what he's going to do is release some of the redacted information from the police internal investigation into those officers. That process is now under way -- Pamela.

BROWN: All right. Jason Carroll, live for us in Louisville, Kentucky. Thanks so much, Jason.

Well, a look what happens to coronavirus if the majority of the country does not take the vaccine. That's up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:46:52]

BROWN: In our health lead: The president is claiming, if the FDA makes regulations tougher for vaccine approval, it would be a -- quote -- "political move, not for the safety of Americans."

But even Health and Human Services Secretary and vocal supporter of the president Alex Azar was quick to reject President Trump's assertion about the agency.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEX AZAR, U.S. HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: Politics will play no role whatsoever in the approval of a vaccine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: ... is professor of medicine and infectious diseases at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, Dr. Michael Saag.

Nice to see you, Doctor.

DR. MIKE SAAG, INFECTIOUS DISEASE EXPERT, UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA AT BIRMINGHAM: Nice to see you.

BROWN: First of all, what are we supposed to make of this back-and- forth between the FDA and the White House over the vaccine?

SAAG: Well, it's really all about trust.

We have to make sure that, whatever vaccine is approved, that the public can trust that it's effective, and, most importantly, safe.

And that's going to take a little bit of time. So, the back-and-forth, I think, is trying to balance out what might be politically advantageous for the president, for others, vs. what the public will buy into.

And so having data that are accurate and well-conducted studies, that's the key.

BROWN: So, you have the White House press secretary, Kayleigh McEnany, saying today that the FDA is the gold standard of vaccines.

Do you agree with that?

SAAG: The FDA has approved and drugs and kept us safe for a long period of time.

They have career scientists there who know what they're doing, know how to interpret data, and know how to assure us that, when something is approved and put on the market, we can trust that it works.

What we want to make sure is that they have the time and the energy, as well as the information, to make a good decision as the data come in.

BROWN: And I actually want to ask you what Dr. Fauci had said, because part of the updated guidance that the FDA wants is to wait two months after the vaccines are given to see if there are any issues.

And Dr. Fauci said, well, look, what if it shows it's 98 percent effective. Do you really want to wait those two months? Is that the right thing to do when you have all these people who are susceptible to coronavirus and who are dying from it, getting very sick from it?

What do you think about that?

SAAG: It's a balancing act.

I personally don't think that a vaccine will be 98 percent effective. And I think what Dr. Fauci was giving was a hypothetical, that if a virus (sic) was that good, that perhaps we would move forward a little bit sooner, but that's the trade-off he was trying to point out.

I think what we can expect is that, based on, for example, the influenza vaccine, we might have a vaccine that's 50, 60, 70 percent effective in terms of preventing illness in people, and, if we have that, then we do want to wait that 60-day period, which is when most side effects from a vaccine are going to show up, make sure that window is covered for the majority of people in the clinical trial.

And that would put us somewhere, in the idealistic way, of, say, January, February of 2021, at the earliest, when we might have a vaccine available.

BROWN: There's even this question, though, Dr. Saag, if a vaccine is available, will enough Americans take the vaccine to eradicate or quell the spread of coronavirus?

[16:50:09]

This new poll is finding that 60 percent of Americans would likely not take a first-generation COVID vaccine. That's up 9 percent from August.

Does this worry you, when you see these numbers of just people saying, hey, I don't want to even take the vaccine if it becomes available?

SAAG: Yes, it does concern me.

And I think this is why we have to triple down on the trust issue. If we have the confidence from the public that we have done this right, that we have done the studies correctly, that the data are accurate, and that the safety profile is demonstrated, then I think that number will change.

But, for right now, when the public is watching all this back-and- forth and the uncertainty around it, I think that gives people have a pause or a hesitation to sign up for this.

We know that the majority of people in the United States do take the influenza vaccine. There are still some who don't. But I think it's especially important this year for folks to do it because of COVID being around.

And if we do the vaccine studies correctly, and the FDA does their job, as it's supposed to, then I think the trust will improve.

BROWN: Well, that's good. And I hope that you are right, Dr. Michael Saag, for sure.

Thank you so much.

SAAG: Thank you.

BROWN: The one Senate vote that has Republican Senator Susan Collins in the political fight of her life.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:56:11]

BROWN: Well, today, Republican Senator Susan Collins is once again going against President Trump, this time for his refusal to commit to a peaceful transfer of power.

Collins has also refused to vote for his Supreme Court pick before the election.

The senator from Maine has a long bipartisan track record, but, as CNN's Gary Tuchman reports, that may not be enough.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Susan Collins has been a U.S. senator for almost a quarter-century. The Republican senior senator from Maine bills herself as the Senate's most bipartisan member, a reputation that has helped her win reelection in a state where there are more Democrats and even more independents than there are Republicans.

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R-ME): There is no one who has worked harder for the people of Maine, all the people of Maine, and delivered more to them than I have.

TUCHMAN: But one thing she helped deliver is proving politically troublesome for her. Susan Collins helped deliver a Supreme Court seat to Brett Kavanaugh in 2018.

COLLINS: I will vote to confirm Judge Kavanaugh.

TUCHMAN: She voted to confirm despite sexual assault allegations against Kavanaugh from his high school days.

Collins' Democratic opponent is the speaker of the Maine House of Representatives.

SARA GIDEON (D), MAINE SENATORIAL CANDIDATE: My name is Sara Gideon.

TUCHMAN: At this campaign event in the small town of Raymond, Maine, listen to what this man tells Gideon.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I never would vote for Susan after she voted for Kavanaugh.

TUCHMAN: In the streets of Maine's largest city, Portland, and in the scenic small towns, Kavanaugh's name comes up a lot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ever since the Brett Kavanaugh issue or the Brett Kavanaugh vote, I felt like she's not listening to what the people of Maine want anymore.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm a Democrat, but I have always voted for Susan Collins, until this year. She has just -- she's just capitulated.

TUCHMAN (on camera): Susan Collins has been a reelection juggernaut. She has won her three Senate reelection bids handily, the last one in 2014 by about 37 percentage points.

But this race against Sara Gideon is a whole different ball game.

(voice-over): The most recent "New York Times"/Siena College poll conducted just before Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg died showed Sara Gideon with 49 percent and Susan Collins with 44 percent. The results are within the poll's margin of error.

Collins is polling better, though, than President Trump is in this state. For some voters, the Trump factor is too much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She's just in Trump's pocket. She's scared of him, as so many people are.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We used to vote for Collins, but I think she's too much of a Trumpy right at the moment.

TUCHMAN: But among voters who are enthusiastic to continue to support Senator Collins, a concern they often voice shows the political tightrope she has to walk.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So I think he ought to be more cooperative with President Trump.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take more of a conservative stance on issues and vote to the conservative position, especially with the upcoming vote on our new incoming Supreme Court justice.

TUCHMAN: Indeed, Senator Collins announced she would vote against the Trump Supreme Court nominee if the vote takes place before Election Day.

Either way, Collins has a tough fight ahead of her.

GIDEON: I'm sorry, I cannot say that Susan Collins has stood up for what is right.

COLLINS: I have always put the people of Maine first. And I always will.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Going to Charlotte, North Carolina, where President Trump is speaking about health care.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... while bringing millions and millions of people lured into our country.

As long as I am president, we will safeguard our borders and our seniors.

We're pleased to be joined today by Secretary of Health and Human Services -- done a great job -- Alex Azar.

Alex. Hi, Alex.

(APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: Thank you.

(APPLAUSE) [17:00:00]