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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump Announces Plan to Deploy 150 Million Rapid Tests to States; Trump Ducks Questions As NYT Reports He Avoided Paying Taxes for Years. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired September 28, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: As CNN's Kaitlan Collins reports, President Trump today claimed the story as false, though he says he's entitled to tax cuts just like everyone else.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's totally fake news.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As President Trump is lashing out over a damning "New York Times" report about the dire state of his finances, his aides are claiming it's a last-minute hit job before the first debate.

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We've seen this play out before where there was a hit piece about the president's taxes just before a debate, an accurate one at that.

BRIAN MORGENSTERN, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY: The president has paid lots of taxes but the point is that why would anybody pay more than they owe?

COLLINS: Neither his staff nor the president have provided any documents to refute what the "New York Times" is reporting, including that he only paid $750 in federal income taxes in 2016 and 2017 despite the millions that he earned.

TRUMP: Actually, I paid tax, but -- and you'll see that as soon as my tax returns -- it's under audit. They've been under audit for a long time. The IRS does not treat me well.

COLLINS: That number not only pales in comparison to most Americans but also to past presidents who all paid tens of thousands of dollars in federal taxes. Because of the massive losses, the report says Trump paid no income tax at all in 11 of the 18 years of documents they obtained. When he did pay taxes, he reduced what he owed using questionable measures including a nearly $73 million tax refund now the subject of an IRS audit.

It turns out that Trump's best known properties drained the most money. He's lost around $315 million on his golf properties over the last two decades, including on Trump National Doral near Miami where the president tried to host the G-7 Summit.

TRUMP: I don't need promotion. OK? But I was willing to do this for free, and it would've been the greatest G-7 ever.

COLLINS: The report also shows Trump made more money than previously known from foreign governments, including during his time in office, and used tax deductions for so-called business expenses that most people would consider personal ones. Like $70,000 in hairstyling while hosting "The Apprentice." But perhaps what could be most damaging from the reports is what's to come. "The Times" says an enormous amount of financial pressure is facing Trump because hundreds of millions of dollars in loans that he is personally responsible for will be due within the next four years.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): This president is the commander-in-chief. He has exposure to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars to whom? The public has a right to know.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: And, Pam, another thing in this report, it shows that the president paid $750,000 in consulting fees to his own daughter Ivanka Trump while she was serving as a senior vice president at the Trump Organization, already being paid as an employee there, but also being paid as a consultant on some of the projects that she worked on. So there are still questions about that.

And we should note that yesterday the president said that the "New York Times" had not reached out to him for a comment on this, although his attorney is on the record in the story.

BROWN: Yes, Alan Garten is on the record in this story. All right, thanks so much, Kaitlan Collins. Appreciate it.

Let's discuss. We have Chris Cillizza and Seung Min Kim.

Seung Min, let's start with you. "The Times" reports that since 2000, President Trump lost more than $315 million at his golf courses and $174 million in other Trump-owned businesses. This really kind of cuts down the image that President Trump has tried to prop up that he is a successful businessman.

SEUNG MIN KIM, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, WASHINGTON POST: I think that's precisely correct. And that could be one of the most damaging parts about this tax revelation by the "New York Times." I mean, it's obviously yet to be seen over the next several days how much this actually moves voters. But so much of the president's appeal was kind of -- is back in 2016 and still to this day that he is someone who can have a good stewardship of the economy. He is that smart businessman who will run the country like a business.

And now we see from his tax returns that, you know, for many of his properties, that was not the case. Again, but already we are seeing Republicans kind of push back at this report, whether it's going to change any minds we can kind of take queues from elected Republican officials. And we have Senator Chuck Grassley who was chair of the Finance Committee, who is the top tax writing committee in the Senate, saying, you know, kind of taking Trump's side and saying why is the IRS taking so long to audit his tax returns?

So, in terms of whether he's going to get support from his own party on this, I would say for now that is a pretty safe bet.

BROWN: So you have his own party, and then you have the voters at large, Chris. The president says this isn't true. Do you think that works, particularly when the president is not willing to release his tax returns to prove it?

[16:05:03]

CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS REPORTER AND EDITOR-AT-LARGE: I think it works for people who want to believe that it's not true. You know, he's denied it sort of. You know, he said things, Pam, like, well, I pay taxes. Again, the allegation is that he's never paid taxes or he hasn't paid state taxes. Right? So you've got to be careful when you're reading that. I think a lot of Trump supporters say well, they're on the record denying it. They're not really on the record denying what's in the "New York Times" report.

You know, the interview with the deputy spokesperson for Trump earlier with Poppy where he said, look, Donald Trump pays taxes. Yes, sure.

(LAUGHTER)

CILLIZZA: No one's disputing that. $750 is paying taxes, right? I mean, the issue here is what in the "New York Times" report is wrong? Unfortunately, I'm with Seung Min on this. I don't think it's just elected officials, Republican elected officials who are going to sort of say, that's Trump being Trump. My guess is you're going to see most Trump supporters who are with them are going to stay with them over this. And most people who are opposed to Trump will see this as yet more evidence of corruption and him using the office to make money.

The thing that I would say is take the politics out of it for a second. You have someone who has significant personal debt, those debts are coming due. We don't exactly know who holds those debts. And this is someone who, as Seung Min notes, has many in his career, in his political career particularly, he's this hugely successful businessman. But these returns suggest he's not. So taking out of politics, there are still a lot going on here, whether or not it's going to change people's minds.

BROWN: Well, it does raise really significant questions we don't have the answer to. Who does he owe this money to? Are there conflicts of interest with his job as president in terms of his dealings with overseas heads of state and so forth? I mean, it does raise a lot of questions. And then you have the Biden campaign not surprisingly, Seung Min, releasing this digital video juxtaposing the thousands in taxes that teachers, firefighters, nurses and more pay versus Donald Trump's $750. We see it right here.

How much does this bolster the Biden message? What do you think? KIM: It really does help make the case for the Biden campaign that

they have pushed in recent days saying that this is a campaign between Park Avenue and Scranton, where Vice President Biden was born. How much it actually moves the needle like we've been discussing is so hard to tell because it does -- I mean, so many voters' minds are so polarized and so solidified, whether you like Trump or not.

But it does help kind of boost the Biden campaign's message. You know, Vice President Biden has been working hard to win back those white working-class voters that went so strongly for the president in 2016. And I think showing the tax returns, showing kind of the disparity between what teachers, firefighters, nurses have to pay to the federal government in taxes and showing what the president, this very wealthy guy actually paid is something that definitely the Biden campaign will be emphasizing.

BROWN: Certainly --

CILLIZZA: And Pam, can I --

BROWN: Yes?

CILLIZZA: Can I just -- I just want to add one thing as it relates to the politics of it. Look, whether this story moves people or not, I'm skeptical of, right, because nothing moves people at this point. That said, we are five weeks from the election. And it's an election, by the way, that Donald Trump is demonstrably behind in, both nationally and in every swing state that I see. He's tied at best or behind. Every day we get closer where we're talking about anything like this story, the handling of the coronavirus, state of the economy.

These are not issues that Donald Trump can win on. He is not going to win an election where voters are thinking, I don't really love how he handled the pandemic, and I don't know about this tax story, but, man, it sure seems like he paid less taxes than me. He doesn't win on that. Right? He needs to change people's minds at this point. Stories like this that are going to go on for days. It's going to be a topic of the debate tomorrow night, obviously.

It's just -- we're not 400 days from an election. Right? We're 37 I think. And that means that every day is critical, and this is a lost day for him. And tomorrow will almost certainly be a lost day for him. And now we're literally five weeks away.

BROWN: That's really important context I think in terms of why this matters right now. I also think it's interesting the analysis you did, Chris, on the president's financial troubles being the reason, in your view, behind why he ran for president in the first place, right?

CILLIZZA: Yes. Yes. Just real quickly, read the "New York Times" saying -- and if you don't want to go through the whole thing, read what David Leonhardt wrote, "18 Takeaways" about it, you know, for us with less of an attention span, and in that he notes really effectively that it's 2015, it's January 2015, he's a decade removed from "The Apprentice's" sort of success and the money and the ratings and the marketing that came from that. It's bringing less money in. He's losing money on his golf courses. He has these loans coming due.

What can he do? What's the last card he can play to make himself relevant again? Because, remember, the way Donald Trump makes money is not building buildings.

[16:10:07]

It's putting his name on things. And if his name doesn't matter as much and isn't as relevant, that's sort of his biggest worry and issue. What does he do? He runs for president. The timing makes sense. Go back and read Donald Trump's speech when he announces. Obviously we know about, you know, he refers to Mexico sending us rapists and criminals. But I went through it today, Pam. He promotes two buildings he owns. He promotes steaks. He promotes ice water, Trump ice.

He talks about how the air conditioning is really good in Trump Tower, all against the setting of him coming down the escalator in his own building.

BROWN: Right.

CILLIZZA: I mean, if you see it through that lens, it all sort of starts to make some sense. Thank you for the opportunity.

BROWN: And then the irony, though, is that -- yes, of course. The irony is that he lost a lot of deals, if I remember correctly, early on when he started to run because of the comments that he's making running for president.

CILLIZZA: Yes.

BROWN: But, Seung Min, you know, we both have covered this White House as well and the politics. His businesses are benefitting from the presidency. For example, "The Times" shows how there's been a surge in members at Mar-a-Lago netting him an extra $5 million a year since 2015. How does this "New York Times" reporting shed fresh light on all of that?

KIM: It clearly shows that while there may be an increase in just the business and the revenue coming in to the Trump property, just how much overall the Trump Organization had been losing money. And again puncturing that image of him as a businessman. And I also want to go back to the transparency issue, which I think is fascinating, especially in the context of the other major fight in Washington right now in the Supreme Court.

The Trump campaign, White House officials, President Trump himself had been hounding Vice President Biden, and the Biden campaign to release a list of Supreme Court justices that Trump kind of famously himself did. But yet -- and the Biden campaign hasn't done that, but yet the tax returns which has been a tradition of presidential campaign is something that they have refused to do for years. And, you know, we may have seen why with this revelation in the "New York Times."

BROWN: Yes. And it doesn't matter if it's under audit, you can still release the tax returns. All right. Seung Min Kim, Chris Cillizza --

CILLIZZA: Richard Nixon released his tax returns in the 1970s when he was under audit. This idea that it's illegal.

BROWN: Yes.

CILLIZZA: All president had done it.

BROWN: But, by the way, it did confirm that his tax returns are still under audit.

All right, thanks so much to both of you. Appreciate you coming on.

And we've got some breaking news on a day like this with this bombshell report about his taxes, President Trump just moments ago held an event about COVID tests but did not take questions from reporters. We're going to be live with those details up next.

Plus, we have a CNN exclusive. Russia's so-called propagandist-in- chief reveals what Vladimir Putin may really think of President Trump in the upcoming U.S. election.

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[16:17:11]

BROWN: And breaking news, moments ago, President Trump announced 150 million new rapid coronavirus tests to be sent out to the states and vulnerable communities. The president notably not taking questions from reporters after a stunning investigation into the president's tax returns revealing Trump only paid $750 in taxes in 2016 and 2017.

Let's bring in CNN's Kaitlan Collins.

Kaitlan, the president is touting this as a huge advancement, but we are nine months into this pandemic here.

COLLINS: Yeah. And it's been one month since they actually announced they were purchasing these tests. Our question immediately then at the end of August when we were first talking about this was where were these tests going? And now is the time first we're actually getting real details from the administration about this talking about them going to these vulnerable communities that they feel these tests would be best, because remember, these are the tests that can get you results in about 15 minutes. And that's what they were touting there in the Rose Garden. Of course, they're notably doing this one day before the president is going to have his first debate as Joe Biden is trying to hit him on his coronavirus response that we know Americans have rejected.

But there are a few things that happened there in the Rose Garden, Pam, that I want to point out to you. And one was what the president said versus what the vice president said. Because the president, as he did no take questions, he maintained his belief that he has said that the U.S. is rounding the corner when it comes to the pandemic, something that medical experts have not echoed. But then you saw the vice president seem to trying to preempt what is expected to come in the weeks ahead by saying Americans should be ready to see a rise in cases, kind of trying to say that that is something that's up ahead here, Pam.

And then also it's notable who we did not hear from in the Rose Garden. That was Dr. Anthony Fauci or Dr. Deborah Birx or even the CDC director, Dr. Robert Redfield, who NBC News reported earlier this morning that he was overheard on a plane complaining about someone we did hear from, Dr. Scott Atlas, the new coronavirus adviser to the president who we know has echoed his unscientific views on COVID-19, things like wearing a mask is not always helpful and doubting the science on that.

Scott Atlas spoke, but we did not hear from any of the other medical experts as the president was saying his belief that other people have doubted which is that the U.S. is rounding the corner.

BROWN: OK. And we also heard from Admiral Giroir who was the testing czar, of course. But it is notable, Kaitlan, that we didn't see some of the other main officials on the coronavirus task force like Dr. Redfield, like Dr. Fauci, Deborah Birx. It really is an interesting look, and pretty telling.

Thanks so much, Kaitlan.

And joining me now to discuss, William Haseltine, former professor at Harvard medical school.

Nice to see you, William. I want to just try to put this into context what we just heard for everyone to understand. The vice president called this a historic day, 150 million rapid tests, results in 15 minutes.

[16:20:05]

How significant is this?

WILLIAM HASELTINE, FORMER PROFESSOR, HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL: Well, it's a step forward. It's a small step forward. I would rather see 150 million a day, not a month. That's what we really need.

This is long overdue. It will be helpful. But it'll be modestly helpful.

We need to be close to a time where everybody in America can have a rapid test for free from the government to test their family. That plus paid home isolation could put a quick end to this epidemic. That's what I'm waiting for, but we don't see.

BROWN: Well, that's the real question of this announcement coming so many months into this pandemic, is this development too late? Is it better late than never? How should we view this?

HASELTINE: Well, let's take a look at the overall context. The epidemic is not waiting, it's on the rise. I'm looking at the numbers right in front of me as we speak.

The U.S. has had a 23 percent increase in total cases over the last two weeks. We've had a 2 percent increase in deaths, not a decrease as was said in the Rose Garden. So this is not getting better.

And most of us who look at this see the coming is a very dangerous season. It is much better late than not at all. But it's inadequate even at its present level. It has to be 10 times, 20 times that level to begin to make a real difference in putting a cap on this pandemic. We can do it, but we have to act right away.

BROWN: Right. I mean, every expert I've spoken to on this today has said this country is headed in the wrong direction, which is alarming as we head into flu season, head into the winter as people let their guard down, as people maybe congregate inside. We're more apt to do that inside when it's cold outside rather than when it's warm.

How much is all of that concern you?

HASELTINE: It's a very big concern. First of all, we can just look at our neighbors in Europe. They relaxed in what happens. They have higher rates today than they did at their peak when they shut down, higher rates today.

And that is before the winter months have come on with what we know and expect will be an increase. So they're going to have an increase on top of an increase. And so that is what we're looking at.

So, it's a great concern that we begin to take really straightforward measures to test ourselves, to isolate those people while they are contagious. We can do it, but we need to act fast.

BROWN: And these rapid tests are meant for the most vulnerable for school kids. But it doesn't take away what the rest of the population has to do in a lot of circumstances, go and wait in line, you know, get your tests and sometimes not getting it back in several days if not weeks. I mean, that's still an issue in this country, right?

HASELTINE: It's a big issue. And let me just say the good news is these tests now exist. The good news is the administration is recognizing these tests exist and distributing. That's a big step forward.

But we need to take giant steps forward to put this back in the bottle. What we need to do is have tests as you pointed out for average Americans, for people who go to work every day. And for those people who aren't going to take those tests at home, we need to have spot checks in schools and we need to have spot checks in workplaces.

So we need a much bigger ramped up manufacturing. We should have been doing this several months ago.

Let me put it into an international context. India is treating, actually testing most of its population with these tests and has been for two or three months. We are way behind the curve. It's time to catch up. BROWN: I want to ask you the news of the day with this divide, I

guess, you should say between the CDC Director Robert Redfield and Scott Atlas who is advising President Trump. They have different opinions on three issues, masks, youth infections and herd immunity. Atlas has criticized lockdowns.

The White House says it's a good thing the president is getting differing opinions from his advisers. Do you agree?

HASELTINE: Absolutely not at this level. Scott Atlas has taken and modified administration policy in ways it could be totally disastrous. His theories have no basis in fact. It's not a question of two arguments. It's a question of scientific observation and scientific fact.

Look around us: 200,000 of us have died. And we're looking for another 150,000 to die before the end of the year. And Scott Atlas's program would magnify that enormously.

On the other hand, we know that masks slow down the epidemic. We know that social isolation slows it down. And so we have tools in our hands right now that we can use to much greater effectiveness, counter to the advice that the administration is now giving to states, don't close bars, don't insist on masks, that's straight from Scott Atlas and it's from his boss.

[16:25:01]

He's not a sole actor. He's acting out what his boss wants done.

BROWN: OK, William, thank you so much. That sums it up. Appreciate it.

And up next --

HASELTINE: You're welcome. Thank you.

BROWN: Thanks.

Getting ahead of the president and his possible challenges to election results, how Democrats say he might be planning to disrupt the election with 36 days to go.

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BROWN: We're back with our 2020 lead.

So what happens if President Trump claims victory on election night with millions of mail-in votes uncounted?

[16:30:00]