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The Lead with Jake Tapper

More Trump Tax Revelations; Biden, Trump Set For First Presidential Debate. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired September 29, 2020 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:31]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We begin with the 2020 lead today, what is set to be an historic presidential debate kicking off in just a few hours. This will be the first time President Trump and Joe Biden will face off.

The United States has frankly never experienced anything remotely like this. The debate will be happening during a deadly global pandemic, as well as a Supreme Court confirmation battle, not to mention a stunning "New York Times" investigation into the president's tax avoidance.

There will be no handshake between the candidates because of the virus. They will not wear masks on stage. But everyone at the debate hall tonight will be tested for COVID before they are allowed in, we are told.

Trump advisers say they have been working with President Trump to give him tools to refute and rebut Biden's attacks over his handling of the pandemic, which has killed more than 205,000 Americans and infected seven million as of this afternoon.

Multiple sources familiar with the candidates' debate prep tell CNN that both Trump and Biden are practicing ways to get under the skin of their opponent.

Regardless of the president's record-breaking proclivity for lying and smearing any perceived opponent, the moderator, Chris Wallace of FOX, has said that he does not think it's his job to be a truth squad.

So, with that free rein, who knows what President Trump may say this evening.

Let's go straight to CNN's Kaitlan Collins live in Cleveland.

And, Kaitlan, CNN is reporting that President Trump is planning to attack Joe Biden's son Hunter over his business deals and who knows what else

If one is a voter on the fence, let's say they like Trump's policies, they like his judges, but they also think he's nasty and indecent, why would attacking Joe Biden's son help win over that voter? KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Because, Jake, it's

really seen as the art of the deflection inside the Trump campaign in these strategy sessions that he's been doing because Hunter Biden and pointing out -- pointing to the former vice president's son has been one of their primary responses since that "New York Times" investigation into the president's finances broke 48 hours ago.

They have not really been responding to this substance of that investigation and what it shows about how little or how much the president didn't pay at all in his federal income taxes. And, instead, they have said the questions should be about Hunter Biden and what he was paid and how much he spent.

Of course, whether or not that's a successful tactic for the president tonight is anyone's guess as he's on the stage with Joe Biden for those 90 minutes, because we know Biden is also going to look to hit the president on his handling of the coronavirus pandemic that has killed 200,000 Americans and is still raging inside the country, even though the president maintained as recently as yesterday he believes we're rounding the corner.

But, Jake, they're also going to talk about the economy, the racial tensions throughout the country and, of course, that newly vacant seat on the Supreme Court as well when they are both sharing the stage together.

TAPPER: President Trump, he does emphasize this idea of distraction and deflection, as you know, Kaitlan.

In 2016, Trump invited a number of women who had accused Bill Clinton of various things, rape, sexual assault, et cetera, to the debate in Missouri. Are they going to attempt a similar stunt this year?

COLLINS: It seems like they might be trying to.

You saw what Jason Miller, a top Trump campaign aide, tweeted last night, saying that the guest list should be interesting tonight. We just heard from the chief of staff, Mark Meadows, as they were boarding Air Force One to come here, where he told reporters they had received 20 tickets for their guests. Joe Biden received 20 tickets for his guests as well.

And we know that the Trump family is coming, his children, first lady Melania Trump, their spouses. That crew will be coming. But it's still an open question who else they are going to invite.

And, of course, that's another point of deflection that the president has tried to use, because when he invited those Clinton accusers to the debate in the 2016 cycle, that was right after the "Access Hollywood" tape had published, and they knew that was going to be a big topic at the debates.

So, they tried to turn it around on Hillary Clinton, throw her off her game, and it seems like they may be trying to repeat that tactic again here in Cleveland tonight.

TAPPER: All right, Kaitlan Collins, thanks so much.

Here to discuss, CNN's Jeff Zeleny and Laura Barron-Lopez of Politico.

And, Jeff, let's start with you.

The Trump campaign is urging Republican members of Congress to not underestimate Biden's abilities in the debate. They point out that he has decades of practice. He is -- quote -- "very well-rested and prepared."

But, frankly, the Trump team, including President Trump and his family members, they have been calling Joe Biden senile for months and months and months. They're the ones that have set the bar so low.

[15:05:05]

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: There's no doubt about it, Jake. So now they're clearly trying to raise expectations for Joe Biden a bit here.

But it's certainly an example of the mixed messaging the Trump campaign and indeed the president himself have employed, as they have been trying for months to define Joe Biden, on one hand calling him sleepy and senile, as you said, and now suddenly raising the bar, saying he has a lot of debate experience.

So it certainly goes to the point that Joe Biden has been difficult for the president to pigeonhole, if you will, or to define. Of course, this race in the eyes of the Biden campaign is all about a referendum on the president. It's a referendum on his handling of coronavirus, of his record in office.

And that, indeed, is the big difference from four years ago. So, I think, while those debates with Hillary Clinton certainly are instructive in terms of the president's style, one big thing is different, the president's record.

There is something that the moderator and his opponent can pin the president down on. But there's no question that the Trump campaign and the president now trying to say that Joe Biden is rested and ready for this debate.

The voters I have spent the last several weeks across the country talking to you who are still undecided are trying to see what type of Democrat Joe Biden is, if he is, indeed, someone who's perhaps a bit out of step with the mainstream, if he's leftward-leaning or if he's not.

So that is something that Joe Biden is going to be showing first and foremost.

But, Jake, I am told by talking to advisers to the Biden campaign that he first and foremost is going to be trying to exhibit calm and unification, that he is someone who can sort of bring a unity to this country that has not existed under the Trump administration, rather than any specific policy proposals he will be addressing tonight. TAPPER: And, Laura, we're told President Trump did less than two

hours of preparation for tonight's debate. That's a startlingly short amount of time.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: That's right.

And, in comparison, Joe Biden, his campaign says that he's been prepping for days. We know that he called a number of lids early over the weekend in order to prepare for the debate.

So, again, it shows that stark contrast in the way the two campaigns are approaching tonight. And Biden, again -- I have also been talking to some Republican pollsters who are pulling undecided voters who say that the fact that Trump's campaign for so long has pitched Biden as this older man, despite him and Trump being similar in age, that is out of step or that is a little bit slow, could ultimately backfire if Biden delivers up even a pretty stable performance, one similar to what he delivered during the Democratic primary.

And, time and time again, also Biden going into those Democratic primary debates was underestimated and people thought that some of his dust-ups with the other candidates would ultimately hurt him. And then we saw that he prevailed and won the nomination.

TAPPER: Yes.

And, Jeff, I mean, Biden has had a number of debates in the Democratic primaries in which he was attacked a lot by, including his running mate, Kamala Harris, but Cory Booker, Julian Castro, et cetera. He's also been preparing.

And he wasn't that bad. I mean, I don't think -- I think this idea that he's some great debater is ridiculous. He's never been a great debater. But we had that one-on-one debate with him and Bernie Sanders. It was right when the coronavirus was spreading. It was the first one, no audience. It was just Sanders and Biden. And he was fine.

I wonder if the Republicans are regretting setting the bar so low.

ZELENY: I mean, it's unclear.

They're certainly now trying to raise the expectations. But, Jake, I'm thinking back to the debate that Joe Biden had in the 2008 campaign with Sarah Palin and then again in 2012 with Paul Ryan. Joe Biden was actually a pretty strong debater, or certainly above-average debater.

His performances occasionally in the Democratic primary this year were uneven. But it is an unusual thing to be debating with 10 people. So that is really not even like playing the same game. It's like playing football and basketball. This is the same game, the same plan here.

So we are going to see a contrast between President Trump and Joe Biden. But, again, I'm told that Joe Biden does not see his role to be a fact-checker. You're going to see him weaving into some of his answers some of the absurdities that the president says about the truth, but he wants to use this -- it's really one of his last, best chances for both of them here to reach millions, tens of millions of Americans who will be voting, who, in fact, are voting right now.

So that is what is different about this moment in the debate. So I'm not sure that any of the previous debates are that instructive, because this is a different time and we have the president's record here.

But, going forward, I mean, look specifically for Joe Biden -- he also has a bit of a temper. We have seen him go after President Trump, I can recall a couple years ago, saying he would take him behind a woodshed.

TAPPER: Right.

ZELENY: His advisers are -- really have been trying to get under Joe Biden's skin. And the advisers want his answer to be to not take the bait.

[15:10:07]

So we will see tonight if Joe Biden takes the bait. But the reality here is, the burden is still on President Trump to try and upend this race, to try and change the -- this moment in the race.

And it's certainly -- right now, Joe Biden is leading the way in many of these battleground states. It's the burden on President Trump to change this moment, if you will, Jake.

TAPPER: And, Laura, Politico, I think Ryan Lizza has a piece talking about how Trump is actually the one who is underestimated when it comes to debates, that he actually was very effective in the message he was delivering.

And, look, here's the other thing about Trump, is that we have no idea what he's going to do. It won't be traditional. That's probably a good, safe bet. But we're already being told that he's going to go after Joe Biden on a personal level, including going after his son Hunter.

I mean, this is a president who literally has retweeted a tweet accusing Joe Biden of being a pedophile, a false, disgusting smear that there's no evidence for whatsoever.

I mean, is there any way that Joe Biden can escape, given how low Trump is obviously willing to go?

BARRON-LOPEZ: I mean, Jake, yes, there's no telling where Trump will take the debate or what he could potentially throw out there, including, like you said, false conspiracy theories.

And so that's ultimately a question for Biden in terms of, does he, as Jeff said, take the bait, or does he not take the bait? Does he find a way to pivot? We found that, when Biden is typically asked these questions from reporters, from others about wild claims that Trump makes, he lately so far has been saying, I'm not going to engage in that, I'm not going to play his game.

And he will also try to pivot to coronavirus, because, as all the polls show on coronavirus, Biden leads Trump by double digits when voters are asked who they trust in to handle the pandemic.

And that appears to be a really big issue still for voters now. We're seeing cases increase in a number of states. And so I would expect that Biden would try to continually pivot, and his campaign has said that COVID is something that they want to focus on in terms of Trump's handling of the pandemic tonight and for the rest of the time between now and November 3.

TAPPER: Jeff Zeleny, Laura Barron-Lopez, thanks to both of you. Appreciate it.

And it is the political moment you don't want to miss, tonight, Donald Trump, Joe Biden face to face, the first presidential debate of 2020. You can see it right here on CNN. Our special coverage will begin at 7:00 p.m. Eastern.

New revelations in Donald Trump's taxes, proving "The Apprentice" was not reality at all. But will all the red ink matter in red states?

And the largest school district reopening for in-person classes for children, but now new outbreaks and questions about whether that might change that.

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[15:17:21]

TAPPER: On the heels of a blockbuster report by "The New York Times" that President Trump, a self-described billionaire, only paid $750 -- that is $750 -- in federal income taxes in both 2016 and 2017, the newspaper had a follow-up story today about how "The Apprentice" cast Donald Trump as a savvy, self-made billionaire, but, according to "The Times," it was all, in President Trump's favorite word, a hoax.

The year Trump's reality show launched, he filed a tax return showing that his businesses lost almost $90 million. But then the new reality show threw him a financial lifeline worth some $427 million.

Jeremy Diamond joins us now with more on this.

So, Jeremy, where exactly did all this money come from?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, you're right. "The Apprentice" really was a financial lifeline for the president.

After losing tens of millions of dollars a year for several years, the president was able to make a lot of money off of "The Apprentice." The first part of the money, nearly $200 million, came directly from this arrangement where he earned half of "The Apprentice"'s profit.

So, over that 16-year period, the president earning nearly $200 million. But then a bigger chunk of change actually came from everything else that flowed from it, the fame and also this image that he was able to burnish of himself as a successful businessman, more than $230 million that the president was able to make off of endorsements and commercials that he did.

Let me show you some of the endorsements that the president was able to make some money off of. Double Stuf Oreos, promoting those, he earns half-a-million dollars, another half-a-million dollars from a Domino's pizza commercial. Unilever paid him $850,000 to promote one of its detergents.

And one of the biggest payoffs came from Serta mattresses, where he promoted a Trump-branded Serta mattress, and, here, more than $15 million over several years.

But, Jake, while he was able to make money through "The Apprentice," and through the fame that followed, the reality is that the president's own businesses, the ones that he owned and operated, they were not doing so well during that same time period, in fact, losing $175 million during the same period, suggesting that President Trump was far better at playing a real estate tycoon than actually being one.

TAPPER: Right. He wasn't actually what he was portraying himself to be to the American people.

Has there been any reaction from the president about this latest report from "The New York Times"?

DIAMOND: Well, the president today, Jake, once again ignoring shouted questions as he was leaving the White House about this.

But we -- it seems that the president and his team can't quite pick a strategy. You know, we heard the president say that this is fake news, totally made-up story. But at -- and some of the president's allies are also following that tune, but then, at the same time, you have them calling for an investigation into the IRS.

[15:20:03]

Eric Trump, the president's son, suggesting that somebody at the IRS actually leaked these tax documents. And news flash here, Jake, those documents can't be fake news, they can't be made up if they were leaked by someone at the IRS.

Of course, we don't have any evidence of that at this point. But, nonetheless, Jake, this is something that the president could easily put to bed if he would simply release his tax returns, something that every president in modern American history has done.

TAPPER: That's right, every major party candidate since '76, I think.

Jeremy Diamond, thanks so much.

I want to talk about this with CNN business anchor Julia Chatterley. And, Julia, let's start and focus on the fact that the president ,a self-described billionaire, paid only $750 in taxes in 2016 and then again in 2017. He's not the first wealthy person to benefit from the current tax code.

I mean, Warren Buffett famously said that he had a lower tax rate than his secretary does. But, of course, there's a difference between avoiding taxes and evading taxes.

JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN BUSINESS ANCHOR: This is such a critical point.

Tax evasion is illegal. You can go to prison for it. Tax avoidance, on the other hand, is perfectly legal, even if it feels desperately unfair. And there are many wealthy people in America that use tax avoidance to reduce their tax bill.

And they do it perfectly legally. If we want to reduce this and sort out some of the unfairness, it's about changing the tax code and closing some of the loopholes that they use to do it.

TAPPER: The president said he does not want people taking advantage of the system when it comes to stimulus money, when it comes to trade deals, when it comes to welfare.

Is he exploiting loopholes in the tax system?

CHATTERLEY: Exploitation on steroids, Jake.

And, actually, in terms of complexity, it's more black hole, I think, rather than loophole. It comes back to the point about unfairness. The bottom line is, it's far harder to pay less tax or avoid tax on your salary or wages than it is on investment income, and that favors richer people.

It's very complicated, but, at its most simple, the federal government charges a far higher tax rate on ordinary income than it does on gains on things like stocks, on bonds, on real estate investment. The highest level of tax rate for income, 37 percent, the long-term capital gains tax, much, much lower. It's 20 percent tax.

This is the privilege of the rich, and it favors them as a result.

TAPPER: But that's 20 percent. At least that's something.

I mean, Senator Bernie Sanders, independent of Vermont, has been making the case about the super rich for years. He says that the top 1 percent of wage earners in the U.S. is responsible for 70 percent of unpaid taxes.

That's not to say, of course, that they don't pay anything, but they are avoiding paying what they owe.

CHATTERLEY: Such a great point. Two sides to this story.

The top 1 percent paid more income tax in 2016 than the bottom 90 percent combined. They also represent today around a third of net wealth of the entirety of America. So, you can argue they can pay more.

But this study that Bernie Sanders is stating is so important. It says that unpaid taxes over the next decade equates to $7.5 trillion, the vast majority of that, the richest people in America.

If you could just narrow that gap and claw that money back to the tune of around a trillion dollars, that would be more effective than raising the top rate of tax to 70 percent.

Jake, the bottom line is, we have to capture the few people that simply aren't paying the taxes they owe. And that would be more effective than anything else, at least in the short term.

TAPPER: Boy, I wonder why we aren't able to catch them?

Julia Chatterley, thank you so much. Really appreciate your insights.

Amidst all this, Joe Biden just released his tax returns for 2019, a clear attempt to draw a contrast with President Trump. Biden's returns show that he and his wife, Jill, paid nearly $300,000 in federal income tax last year. That's a bit more than $750.

Coming up, a pandemic, politics, and your kids caught in the middle. Now a former task force member confirms that the CDC was being pushed to play down the risks of reopening schools. What does that mean?

Let's talk about it next.

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[15:29:18]

TAPPER: And we're back with our health lead.

The largest school district in the United States welcomed elementary school students back today for the first day of in-person learning. Everyone entering New York City schools has to be screened. Students are wearing masks. And the district says it reconfigured rooms to enable social distancing.

But, of course, this is not without risk. Staffers at 150 New York City school buildings have tested positive for coronavirus in recent weeks.

Joining me now to discuss is Dr. Peter Hotez. He's the co-director of the Center for Vaccine Development at Texas Children's Hospital.

And, Dr. Hotez, as parents, we all want our kids to go back to school when it's safe. If a school has masks, social distancing, spaced-out classrooms, enough to guarantee that there's some distancing, is that enough to guarantee that it will be relatively safe?