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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Breonna Taylor Grand Jury Audio Tapes Set For Release; California Fires; Supreme Court Nominee on Capitol Hill; More Trump Tax Revelations; Biden, Trump Set For First Presidential Debate. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired September 29, 2020 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: After "The New York Times" reported that President Trump has largely avoided paying federal income taxes, only $750 in 2016 and another $750 in 2017, "The Times" has followed up with a report that details that, while Donald Trump may have played a billionaire on TV, in reality, he was actually losing money bigly.

According to "The New York Times," the year Trump's reality show launched, he filed a tax return showing his businesses lost almost $90 million. But then he got the financial lifeline, a $427 million lifeline, in "The Apprentice."

CNN's Jeremy Diamond has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Trump and his allies can't seem to pick a response to "The New York Times" exposing Trump's years of tax-dodging.

First, it was:

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Totally fake news, made-up, fake.

DIAMOND: But now:

ERIC TRUMP, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, TRUMP ORGANIZATION: The IRS, somebody at the IRS leaked the document. I really believe that this is the IRS scandal of this generation.

DIAMOND: Between the denials and the attacks, the president still refusing to release any of his tax returns, campaign officials relying on a false claim that an IRS audit is keeping him from disclosing the documents.

(CROSSTALK)

TIM MURTAUGH, TRUMP 2020 CAMPAIGN COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: That refund that -- I told you, Jim, I told you, Jim, the president will release his taxes when the audit is complete. DIAMOND: Eighteen years of tax documents obtained by "The Times" show

Trump paid zero federal income tax in 11 of those years, fueled by hundreds of millions of dollars in financial losses, including $90 million in 2003.

The next year, Trump hid that reality to prop up another kind of reality on TV. "The Apprentice" on NBC would become Trump's financial lifeline. Pocketing half the show's profits, Trump earned nearly $200 million over 16 years, and an even bigger payout came from the skyrocketing fame.

D. TRUMP: Oreos rejected my bid to buy the DSRL, so we lick-race for it right here with Double Stuf Gold.

So what do you think of my Trump Home Mattress collection?

DIAMOND: Trump raked in $230 million in licensing deals, endorsements and even get-rich-quick schemes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His methods of success can be taught to anyone who wants to have that power, knowledge and know-how.

DIAMOND: But, according to "The Times," Trump was better at playing real estate tycoon than actually being one. Between 200 and 2018, the paper reports his businesses lost nearly $175 million, even as he pumped his "Apprentice" profits into his properties.

The losses fueled more debt, more than $400 million of which is coming due in the next four years, drawing questions of conflicts of interest.

SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Do you owe anybody money who is impacted by any decision you make as president of the United States? We need to know that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DIAMOND: And, Jake, today, the president once again refusing to answer questions from reporters about his taxes.

But he won't be able to avoid those questions for much longer. A senior Trump campaign official telling reporters aboard Air Force One that they expect taxes will be the first question out of the gate to the president -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Jeremy Diamond, thanks so much.

The president's Supreme Court nominee on the hill for her first day of meetings with lawmakers. Judge Amy Coney Barrett meeting with eight Republican senators today, including Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, who met with her alongside Vice President Pence.

CNN's Manu Raju joins me now.

And, Manu, one issue that has come up with Barrett's confirmation is Democrats wanting her to recuse herself from any forthcoming election- related cases. McConnell was asked about that today. He ignored the question.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: He did. And other senators have said that did not come up yet in their discussions with Amy Coney Barrett.

Ted Cruz, the Texas Republican who did meet with her today, said they didn't discuss that. But when he was asked by reporters about whether he thinks that she should recuse, he said no. He said the reason why they need the Supreme Court nominee now is so they can -- they can resolve any cases that arise in the wake of the elections.

That is similar to what other people in the administration and the like are pushing. Also, it's unclear how much she really could detail other cases that may come down before her, how she may come down if she is confirmed to the court, one, of course, being Roe vs. Wade.

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She didn't, in her meeting with Senator John Thune, the number two Republican, detail how she may come down on something such as that. Thune says that was not a major topic of discussion. Typically, in these meetings, they are courtesy meetings. They explain the judicial philosophy, but they don't get pinned down on the issues.

They also don't do that in the confirmation hearings. But, Jake, today, just Republicans. We will see if Democrats ultimately meet with her. A lot of them don't want to because they don't want to lend what they say is legitimacy to this process.

TAPPER: Yes, we should point out Ted Cruz had no problem with an eight-member Supreme Court from February 2016 until 2017.

Manu, as Barrett met with lawmakers, Judge Barrett, Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer vowed to keep fighting her confirmation. What are you learning about Democrats' efforts to stop her confirmation? Can they actually do anything to stop it?

RAJU: Very little.

In fact, I just asked Chuck Schumer about that, because, at the moment, the Republicans are pushing to get her confirmed by the end of the month. This would be a lightning fast confirmation process. I asked him, is there anything you could do to delay it beyond the end of the month?

He said, we have tools in our toolbox. We're going to try to use every tools. But he said, after McConnell, Mitch McConnell's -- quote -- "defiling of the Senate, there are fewer tools and they're not as sharp."

So, an acknowledgement that there's very little the Democrats could do beyond slowing it down for a few hours here and there, mounting some objections. But if Republicans don't break ranks, or four of them don't, she will be on the court for life.

At the moment, Jake, if she doesn't step up in the confirmation proceedings, she's going to get her position by the end of the month -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Manu Raju, thank you so much.

As we count down to tonight's debate, the political spin you might hear on stage from both President Trump and Joe Biden -- that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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TAPPER: President Trump and former Vice President Joe Biden are set to square off in their first face-to-face debate of the 2020 election tonight.

And hours before the debate, the Biden campaign released Joe and Jill Biden's 2019 tax returns, this, of course, as we learned from "The New York Times" that President Trump has largely avoided paying federal personal income taxes and still has not released his tax returns.

Here with me to discuss the debate is Bakari Sellers and Trump campaign adviser David Urban.

David, I played something earlier from President Trump in the second presidential debate in 2016 basically confirming the idea that he tries to avoid paying taxes as much as possible in terms of all sorts of ways that a CPA might recommend. Do you think he just goes to that same playbook this evening?

DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Jake, just to kind of correct the record on that, on '17 and '18, I have two -- since we can't be together, I have two visual aides to share with you, right?

TAPPER: OK.

URBAN: So, in '17, in '17, the president actually paid $1 million in taxes, $1 million, and in '18, he paid $4.2 million in taxes.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: What kind of taxes are you talking about and where'd that come from?

URBAN: That's in "The New York Times"' story. You can read it.

"New York Times" piece reports that. And I says, but then he applied for -- he paid those in anticipated taxes, right, for his '17 and '18 return. He then claimed a business tax credit on the renovation of the hotel -- excuse me -- store tax credit, which then deferred those two payments into out years.

And his tax liability was then reduced to the $750. But, for '17 and '18, he paid to the U.S. Treasury those two amounts.

Interestingly, in '17 and '18, Vice President Biden, in a tax avoidance scheme, I would say, put his money in an S Corporation to avoid paying Medicare and Social Security taxes, about 15 percent. And what the vice president was lauded a smart strategy by some at the time.

So I would say that there's a pox on all houses here on tax avoidance. And I would suspect that, if the vice president goes up to the president, he will return such to the vice president.

TAPPER: I mean, there's so much there that you just said, David.

I mean, but I will let Bakari say it.

But, just as a general note, I mean, Joe Biden has nowhere near the amount of income that President Trump has. President Trump is a self- described billionaire.

But, Bakari, that is obviously one approach that we're likely to hear from Donald Trump this evening. What do you think?

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I like David a lot, and I think that if Donald Trump tries that approach tonight and stumbles, stumbles through that and gets himself in a pretzel like David just did, trying to explain something that, to most of the American people (AUDIO GAP) no sense, then that's going to be a win for Joe Biden.

The fact is that his tax liability, what he paid was $750. That's less than most teachers. That's less than most 9:00-to-5:00 workers, most factory workers in Ohio and Pennsylvania. I mean, it's a travesty. It's an injustice. It's a sham. There's nothing you can say about that but that.

Joe Biden tonight has to be strong. He will be, I believe. And it's very difficult to debate someone like Donald Trump, I think people forget that, although most people will tell you Hillary Clinton won all three debates, Donald Trump really did well in those three debates.

And it's not as if he's just going to go in there and lay down. He's going to be evasive. He's going to lie a lot. And he actually has no answers for these taxes.

My last point to David is that, if you want to hold up '17 and '18, I think one of the things you can advise the campaign to do is release their taxes, period. I mean, I don't know why that's a problem. And they're not under audit.

He should just release his taxes and be done with it.

TAPPER: So, David, let me ask you another question, because Dana Bash is reporting that the Trump team has signaled that they are going to attack Joe Biden about his son Hunter Biden and his business dealings.

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Now, I guess one of the questions I have is, is there anybody who cares about the Hunter Biden issue to make it a voting issue that isn't already voting for Donald Trump? And, more to the point, if I'm an undecided voter, let's say in suburban Pittsburgh, and I like what Trump does policy-wise, I like his judges, but I just hate how mean and nasty he is, does going after Hunter Biden help or hurt?

URBAN: Yes, look, I don't think there's a lot to gain, right, by kind of ad hominem attacks from either side.

I think the president has a -- hey, look, we talked about this on this show with Bakari, myself, you and others. My viewpoint is, the president's got a sufficient record. He should stand on it. Run on your record. Be proud of the things you have accomplished. No need to go in with the ad hominem attacks.

And just, as you said, a lot of people don't like the tweets, don't like those kind of ad hominem attacks. And I think he would do best to avoid it and stick to the record.

TAPPER: And, Bakari, what do you recommend to Joe Biden? Obviously, if Donald Trump does such a thing, we're told by Kaitlan Collins and Dana Bash, it would be with the with the strategy of trying just to knock Biden off his feet and unsettle him, distract him.

What do you recommend that Joe Biden do if Donald Trump tries such an approach?

SELLERS: You know, I think that that is a good question. And it's one that everybody's watching tonight.

"Everybody has a plan until you get punched in the jaw," right, and so -- quote, unquote -- the great American philosopher, Mike Tyson.

And so we're going to see what happens tonight, because there are going to be haymakers coming from all over the place. And Donald Trump's going to go low, especially when it comes to Hunter Biden.

I think Joe Biden has to be honest, he has to be straightforward. He has to not get frazzled. And he has to be the Joe that we all know. But when you attack someone's children, there is a level of emotion that comes into play. And I think people are going to want to see Joe Biden fight back, but remain presidential.

And that's going to be a line that he's going to have to walk cautiously. People have no expectations for just decorum or character or an honesty coming from Donald Trump.

But what they do want to see is if Joe Biden can actually show the contrast of being presidential. So when someone drags your child through the mud, instead of returning fire and dragging Ivanka and Jared and Eric and Donald, because there's enough there to drag them through the mud, you look Donald Trump in the eye, and you say, we're going to talk about how to make sure we improve the plight and help carry the load for the American people who are suffering on your watch.

I think that's the way you respond on those attacks on Hunter Biden.

TAPPER: David, according to polls, for whatever they're worth, the president is not leading right now. I mean, I'm not saying that he's not going to win. Obviously, there's

always a path. Would you recommend that he behave in a presidential way, so as to undermine Joe Biden's strategy, which Bakari just laid out, which is, Joe Biden wants to appear like the stable presidential leader? Would you recommend that Donald Trump also try to do that as well?

URBAN: Listen, as I just explained, I think, again, this president has a very strong record to run on, on deregulation, on job creation, on lots of positive things he can talk about.

And so I would, as you point out, remain kind of above the fray, talk about policy, although let's face it, nobody really remembers policy. This isn't presidential -- debates aren't remembered who has the best white paper and talking points on tax reform.

They're really, are you better off than you were four years ago? As Bakari points out, there will be a lot of haymakers thrown. This is a prize fight between two heavyweights. And the goal for both camps I think, is to not take any knockdowns.

TAPPER: All right, Bakari Sellers, David Urban, good to see both of you. Thanks so much for joining us.

It's the political face-off you don't want to miss, tonight, Donald Trump, Joe Biden meeting in the first presidential debate of 2020. You can see it right here on CNN.

Our special coverage starts at 7:00 p.m. Eastern.

We are waiting for a major development in the Breonna Taylor case, a grand juror's push for the truth could lead to something rarely released.

Plus, the danger moving in on California's Wine Country, as more wildfires erupt.

That's next.

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TAPPER: In our national lead today: The unprecedented wildfires out West are now pushing in on California's Wine Country. The state has some 70,000 people under evacuation orders and wildfires are now to blame for 29 deaths this year in California alone.

CNN's Josh Campbell is in Santa Rosa in Sonoma County.

And, Josh, there nearly 1,500 firefighters just where you are, yet all that has been no match for these fires.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Jake.

As of this point, these fires are zero percent contained. There are a number of firefighters here in this area in Santa Rosa, as well as two other fires north of where we are. And they continue to battle these blazes.

You can see behind me here the result of some of that destruction. We're here in a residential area. This is not far from California's famous Wine Country, where we have seen these images of this wildfire just ripping through some of these fields, taking out area -- those vineyards serving as fuel for a lot of those fires.

And one thing, Jake, that is so eerie as we cover these natural disasters is looking at what Mother Nature takes and what she leaves behind.

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Next to this home that was destroyed, you see a home that's largely still intact here, that wasn't burned, yet we continue to see firefighters in and around this area looking for hot spots. You can see up above the hill there there's a fire department team. Our crew was actually here reporting, and we noticed one of the homes up there was set ablaze.

There was a recognition of one of the fires. So we went, grabbed one of the fire teams. They have been working on that for quite some time.

Now, of course, as we talk about the what here with these fires, it's also important to talk about the why. Experts continue to tell us that global warming continues to fuel a lot of these fires, that stemming from increased temperatures from CO2 emissions, as well as earlier snowmelt, lower precipitation.

That is what these firefighters are fighting on the front lines as these continue. And, Jake, the news is even more bleak looking into the future. The latest National Climate Assessment indicates that we could on the Western coast of the United States in the future see two to six times more land burned than we're seeing even today, which is itself unprecedented -- Jake.

TAPPER: Yes, climate change obviously a factor in a lot of this. Thank you so much, Josh.

New updates from the Breonna Taylor case. After initially refusing to do so, the Kentucky attorney general, Daniel Cameron, has now agreed to release audio recordings of the grand jury presentation by tomorrow.

No police officers were charged directly with the killing of Breonna Taylor. One officer was charged with endangering three people in a neighboring apartment. An unidentified grand juror filed a motion for both recordings and transcripts to be released, while also asking the court to allow them to speak publicly about the case.

Shimon Prokupecz is in Louisville with the latest.

Shimon, how would the audio recordings of the grand juries presentation be released tomorrow? And what are we expecting to hear? SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so it's

supposed to be filed.

The judge ordered the attorney general to file -- the state's attorney general to file it with the court by noon Wednesday. So, by then, it will be filed. And it should be made public at some point after that.

So these recordings were taken over two days. The presentation to the grand jury was over two days. So we expect to hear what evidence was presented to the grand jury. And what everyone here is looking for, what Breonna Taylor's family's looking for, what so many of the protesters out here who say that this case was not presented fairly to the grand jury, they want to see exactly what evidence the attorney general put in.

Did he put in information about the killing of Breonna Taylor at all? Was her name even mentioned before this grand jury? So that is something everyone here is going to be looking at, Jake.

TAPPER: And then there's this extraordinary fact that the grand juror, him or her self, made this motion. What more are you hearing about his or her request?

PROKUPECZ: Yes, this is pretty extraordinary.

And I don't remember a time that this has ever been done. So this grand juror who sat through this entire presentation, hearing what the attorney general and how he characterized the presentation, said that the attorney general mischaracterized the presentation, hired a lawyer, and the lawyer filed a motion to put pressure on the court to release the grand jury information.

And also this jury says they want to talk. They want to talk about what went on inside that jury. So, we're waiting to hear if the judge will rule on that. The lawyer for that juror spoke today. And they said they want the truth out. They want honest -- and they want the information out there, because they feel what the attorney general did here, he has not been forthcoming in exactly the way he presented the case.

TAPPER: All right. Shimon Prokupecz, thank you so much.

Joe Biden has now arrived in Cleveland, Ohio, just stepping off the plane. He will face President Trump in their very first debate in just a few hours. You can watch that here on CNN.

More than 205,000 Americans have died from the coronavirus. And, as we end our show today, we wanted to take a moment to remember just one, just one of those lives lost.

Patricia Ashley, a mother of three from Houston, Texas, passed away of complications from COVID-19 earlier this month. She was 53 years old and a preschool teacher in the Houston area. Ashley spent 27 days in the hospital and continued ordering care for her stroke-impaired husband from her ICU bed, until she was put on a ventilator. Patricia's sister Ruby remembers her as a caring person who had

genuine concern for everyone. She was the glue that held the family together, she said.

Patricia Ashley, a loving mother, wife, sister, grandmother, friend and teacher, may her memory be a blessing.

Our coverage on CNN continues right now.

Be sure to tune into our debate coverage, which starts at 7:00 p.m. Eastern. I will see you there.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Welcome to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer in THE SITUATION ROOM.

We're just hours away from the first debate between President Trump and Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden.

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