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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Vice Presidential Debate Set For Tonight; Plexiglass Barriers & 12 Feet Separate Pence, Harris on Debate Stage; Daily Coronavirus Cases in U.S. Average Above 44,000 For First Time Since August; Trump Returns to Oval Office. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired October 07, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: But that doesn't change the fact that he's likely still contagious and further putting everyone at the complex at risk.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake, I spoke to several White House officials who did not think it was a good idea for the president to go back to the Oval Office this early.

Remember, for viewers, the president only isolated one day at the White House after he returned on Monday night. He stayed in the residence side of the White House yesterday, but now he is back in the West Wing. You saw that with the Marine stationed outside the West Wing. That means the president is in the Oval Office.

And the White House did confirm he was getting a hurricane briefing and talking about those stimulus negotiations that he supposedly canceled yesterday. But, of course, it's raising questions about how wise it is for the president to go into the West Wing, even though they say precautions are being taken, given that there is still an outbreak happening among the president's own staff.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS (voice-over): In a new statement, President Trump's doctor says he's shown no symptoms in the last 24 hours and now has detectable levels of antibodies.

But Dr. Sean Conley didn't say if Trump has those levels of antibodies because he was given an antibody cocktail, and he also didn't say which medications he's currently taking, when he last tested negative, what his lung scans showed, or whether he's still contagious.

Dr. Conley did quote the president saying he was feeling great, with an exclamation point. The president's physician hasn't taken questions from reporters since Monday, and officials haven't said if he plans to brief again.

President Donald Trump back in the Oval Office today for the first time since last Thursday. Sources told CNN officials prepared for Trump's arrival by stationing a so-called isolation cart with yellow medical gowns, respirators and plastic goggles outside the Oval Office.

MARK MEADOWS, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: We have got a number of safety protocols with full PPE.

COLLINS: The president was not surrounded by as many familiar faces as usual in the West Wing today. His top adviser Stephen Miller tested positive yesterday, meaning 11 White House officials, including the president, now have coronavirus, as many others are waiting out the infectious period from home.

President Trump fired off dozens of tweets this morning, attacking everyone from Democrats to his own attorney general. But his most noteworthy tweets threw coronavirus stimulus talks into complete chaos.

Hours after he publicly canceled talks with Democrats, the president called on Congress to approve federal economic relief. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi blamed the president's mixed messages on his COVID-19 treatment.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): I said yesterday to my colleagues, I said there are those who say that steroids have an impact on people's thinking. I don't know. But there are those health care providers who say that.

COLLINS: Pelosi hasn't been invited to the White House, but, even if she was, says she wouldn't go.

PELOSI: I wouldn't go anywhere near the White House. It's one of the most dangerous places in the country.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Now, Jake, as we see the president going back to the oval today, it's important to remember the CDC says you can still be contagious even 10 days after your coronavirus symptoms go away, yet that doesn't seem to have stopped the president.

And this is just the same pattern that we saw play out over the weekend, where aides and advisers thought the president should stay at Walter Reed for a few more days, as he was being monitored for the combination of medicine that he was on. He wanted to leave. So he left Walter Reed.

Now he's back at the White House and he wanted to go into the West Wing, and now he is back in the Oval Office today, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Kaitlan Collins with White House, thank you so much.

Joining us now, CNN's chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Sanjay, the president in the Oval Office this afternoon. They had been able to keep him at the at the residence for a while, but, no, they couldn't keep him out of the West Wing. He's being briefed on stimulus talks and preparations for the hurricane. We don't know much about the condition that he's in or the -- what precautions have been taken by people in the room with him, but he's still infected with coronavirus.

Should he be in the Oval Office?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: No.

I mean, he should be an isolation. And that's pretty clear. I mean, regardless of whether you're the president or anybody, if you have coronavirus, there's all sorts of timelines in this sort of thing.

And it's not an exact science, but at least 10 days after people start having symptoms is typically the infectious sort of period. So, he's -- they have got to assume that he has the virus, he's shedding the virus.

So he's putting -- there's people who are going to be at risk. Is he is he wearing a mask? Is there additional ventilation inside there? Are there people within close proximity? Are they wearing personal protective equipment? And do they know how to wear it properly?

Even in the hospital, we have to train people to put on personal protective equipment properly if they're going to be going into COVID units in the hospital.

So, he obviously shouldn't be in the office. We have been telling people for months that, if you come back with a positive diagnosis of this, you need to be in isolation. And that's the same advice for the president as well.

[16:05:00]

TAPPER: What's the risk for somebody who might have been in the room with him, even if they were wearing PPE?

GUPTA: Well, if they're wearing PPE properly, that obviously does mitigate the risk.

And that means a fit-tested N95 mask, fit-tested. So, I mean, you really have to make sure it's fitting properly. And, again, in the hospital, we do that in conjunction with people who train people to do that.

Goggles, the gowns, the things like that, it reduces the risk. Doesn't make it zero. It's still an indoor space. I'm not sure what the ventilation is like in there. There are small spaces to get between the residence and the West Wing. Those areas may have to be treated as contaminated and need to be disinfected.

So it's hard to put a number on it, Jake. I would say, if anybody is so cavalier -- first of all, is the president wearing a mask? I think that's an important point, because that would help mitigate the spread.

If someone is so cavalier is to not wear all their personal protective equipment around him, then I think there is significant risk. It's not 100 percent, by any means, but it's -- it's absolutely something you wouldn't want to do. TAPPER: One of the things people don't understand about the West Wing is that it's pretty cramped. Take a look at this layout.

GUPTA: Yes.

TAPPER: Staffers are generally packed in there. There isn't a lot of great ventilation. There are Secret Service, there are Marines, there are advisers, there are young staffers.

Our reporting is that the West Wing has mainly been cleared out because of the fact that the White House is now a hot zone. But considering we have already seen at least 19 people in the president's orbit testing positive for COVID, Governor Chris Christie's in the hospital in New Jersey, how many more people theoretically could get sick if President Trump is now bringing the virus back into the West Wing?

GUPTA: Well, there's been a clear sort of super-spreader type event at the White House. And most of that may have been linked to the Rose Garden event, although there were probably events around that Rose Garden event inside the -- the inside the White House, inside some of those smaller settings.

So, I know a lot of people aren't there, so that's good. But if you start to look at what makes this most likely to disperse, the dispersion factor of the virus, it is indoors. It is poor ventilation.

And that's -- all the data that we look at is based on people who have not yet necessarily been diagnosed. We don't have testing. For people who have been tested and have coronavirus, they're in isolation.

So, the idea of saying, based on someone that we know is actively shedding virus, currently has COVID, is in a small setting, potentially lots of people around in a cramped setting, the concern is high. I don't know how many people are actually working there right now, Jake, but we have had a super-spreader type event already happen at the White House.

And now you have somebody with active disease who's shedding virus who is apparently going through that area.

TAPPER: I want to read part of the statement from President Trump's doctor released today -- quote -- "His physical and vital signs, including oxygen and respiratory rate, all remain stable and in normal range. He's now been fever-free for more than four days, symptom-free for over 24 hours, and has not needed, nor received any supplemental oxygen since initial hospitalization."

So, what do you make of the president's condition from the statement? And what are we not -- what are we still not being told?

GUPTA: Yes, I mean, it's almost as much of what we're not hearing vs. what we are hearing.

Does he have pneumonia? We have asked this question every single day now. He's had lung scans. We know that. They said those lung scans had findings. Is he continuing to get chest X-rays? Is that improving, whatever the findings were Dr. Conley was referring to?

Does he have pneumonia? I think also the medications that he's on. We knew that he got a dose of these antibodies. He was on remdesivir. Is he still getting the steroid, the dexamethasone? That's typically a 10-day course, six milligrams. That's what the trial sort of dose was in the trials.

Is that what he's getting? If so, I mean, that could be the reason he doesn't have a fever. That could be the reason why he's feeling as good as he is. That knocks down the inflammation, which is a good thing. The problem is, it doesn't treat the underlying infection, Jake. So, once the steroids stop, might the viral replication begin in earnest again?

That's the concern. And that's why he should be in a hospital and being monitored for that.

TAPPER: Sanjay, the White House again today refusing to tell the American people when President Trump last tested negative.

We now have no idea. If he did contract the virus on Saturday, September 26, at that event for the new Supreme Court justice nominee, which was indoor and outdoor, if he did contract the virus that day, we have no idea when he last tested negative. And he traveled all over the country.

[16:10:03]

And he held an event for Gold Star families. He went to Minnesota. He went to New Jersey. He went to Ohio.

I mean, isn't there a public health reason for them to disclose this, so people in those other areas who attended events can figure out if they need to get tested?

GUPTA: Yes, I mean, I think, if it were anybody else in the country, that information would be disclosed, I mean, because that is the basic bread-and-butter contact tracing.

It's really, really disturbing still, at this point, that we still don't know. Well, clearly, someone knows. The question that is being asked, when was the president's last negative test, there is an answer to this question. And it's -- somebody knows it right now who may even be watching.

And it's important, not just because of the president and figuring out his timeline of illness, because, remember, from the time of exposure to the time of symptoms is usually five days or so, on average. OK?

So if you develop symptoms on Thursday, just in terms of how other patients have sort of responded, that would make sense that he had the infection some time over the weekend before. That would be some five days before. That was when the exposure would occur.

Either that, or he had such a significant exposure all of a sudden, that he tested positive and developed symptoms almost simultaneously. That makes a lot less sense.

But, Jake, it's important for him. Everyone keeps asking, how long is he going to be contagious? How long is he before he gets out of the woods? But it also makes a difference for all these other people that he came in contact with.

Five states, we calculated, multiple trips, and dozens, if not hundreds of people that he came in contact with.

TAPPER: The only reason I can think of, politically, not health-wise, but politically, why they wouldn't share this information is that the answer is more damaging than not answering it, which is tough to imagine what that might be.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you so much.

GUPTA: Yes.

TAPPER: Appreciate it.

The debate before the real vice presidential debate -- one of the changes to tonight's stage that has sparked controversy. That's coming up.

Then: Should the CDC director try to get fired? The unusual advice from one of his predecessors.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:16:28]

TAPPER: It could be the most important vice presidential debate in the history of the United States. Mike Pence and Kamala Harris set to face off in their debate in just a couple hours.

CNN's Kyung Lah joins us from the debate site in Salt Lake City, Utah.

Kyung, you asked the Harris campaign how concerned they are about Harris' potential exposure to coronavirus in tonight's event.

What did the Harris have to say?

KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this was during an on the call, on the record call with reporters ahead of the debate, and the Harris campaign just decided they didn't want to answer this question. It is an issue because you have heard our own Sanjay Gupta talking about the plexiglass dividers and how they're effective against droplets, not necessarily aerosols. That's not the intent.

And so, the Harris campaign says simply, it is their job to debate. It is the job of the Cleveland Clinic to keep people safe. Here's a snippet from that call.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP) LIZ ALLEN, BIDEN CAMPAIGN ADVISER: I would say, look, Senator Harris is taking her job seriously for tonight, and our expectation is they're doing the same when laying out those guidelines.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

LAH: Harris will continue to debate -- to continue to campaign after this, Jake. The campaign has said that she has taken this virus seriously from the very beginning. As has Joe Biden and that they will continue those best practices of social distancing and wearing masks -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Kyung Lah.

The Cleveland Clinic didn't exactly bathe itself in glory last debate.

Joining us to discuss tonight's debate, CNN political commentator Bakari Sellers, also author of the book, "My Vanishing Country".

And joining us as well, CNN political commentator, Scott Jennings, former special assistant to President George W. Bush.

Good to see both of you, gentlemen.

Scott, let me start with you. President Trump, 74 years old, battling COVID. Vice President Biden, 77 years old, has also had health issues throughout his life. Has there ever been a more important vice presidential debate, theoretically, both of these candidates could find themselves having to lead the nation.

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, I mean, you're right. Trump is sick, and Biden is no spring chicken. So I'll certainly be watching closely tonight.

And look, you know, even if Trump or Biden were to go through a whole next term, you know, there's -- there will be an open seat if it were a Republican second term, and there could be an open seat if Biden chooses not to run again, and Harris, a lot of people think, is his chosen heir apparent. So, both candidates tonight, I think, have big plans for themselves. And yeah, I agree with your assessment. It's an important debate.

TAPPER: And, Bakari, there's also this other guest at the debate, coronavirus. We hope not actually physically present, but at least theoretically.

Given the outbreak at the White House, given the plexiglass that's going to be on stage, it's going to be hard for the virus to not be the number one issue. Do you think that Kamala Harris has to walk a line here? In terms of expressing concern but also criticizing the administration? Because I mean, the president is physically in harm's way right now.

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't think it's on Kamala Harris to walk a line. In fact, she's debating the chair of the coronavirus task force. And on his watch, we have had this devastation.

Look, I'm someone who probably wouldn't win out on a debate with a campaign. I understand it's the job of the Cleveland Clinic. I appreciated your remark beforehand, but I think Mike Pence, due to the fact he was in a COVID hot spot when we have seen so many people in and around the president should be quarantining right now.

You know, that's my personal opinion. I pray for the safety of everyone involved. Not just the moderator and not just Mike Pence, but, of course, my good friend Kamala Harris as well.

[16:20:03]

I mean, you are debating in the same room, in an enclosed room with someone who has been exposed to coronavirus from multiple sources and who hasn't taken it seriously and who hasn't quarantined. I mean, that's a very real thing.

I think that is something that people will see on the stage, if Mike Pence coughs, I think not only will Twitter but the rest of the world will probably explode. Just trying to figure out if there is something, what is there?

But at the end of the day, even more importantly, this administration has the albatross of not just Donald Trump but their mishandling of coronavirus, which he's going to have to expose tonight. I mean, you know, I lean on your expertise, Jake, but you have moderated debates before. I would assume that's going to be the number one issue of the evening.

TAPPER: Well, with more than 210,000 dead Americans and 7.4 million infected, yeah, I think it's the number one issue, even if there hadn't been this outbreak at the White House.

Scott, let's talk about what the candidates bring to the debate stage. I think that if -- forget the political positions he holds one way or another, just in terms of debate skills, Mike Pence might be the best of the four on the ticket. I mean, he has all those years doing talk radio that has really lent him some skill when it comes to communication. Again, I'm not talking about the content of it, but he's a pretty able debater, I think.

JENNINGS: Yeah, he's a smooth operator. And he has a lot of experience being a governor and then obviously running last time around. So I agree with you. I think he does have a lot of skill.

And, look, it's on him to try to give the Trump campaign a winning day. I mean, I can't think of the last day when the Trump campaign would say they won a news cycle.

And so, just like in 2012 when Joe Biden showed up and whomped Paul Ryan, and just like in 2004 when Dick Cheney showed up and whomped John Edwards, tonight, this presidential campaign is looking to the vice president to right the ship and to drop a little water on a thirsty tongue, which is -- of the Republican Party right now.

So, there's a lot of pressure on Mike Pence to deliver some relief tonight for nervous Republicans.

TAPPER: No question, although I do have to say y think the biggest whomping in vice presidential history was Senator Lloyd Bentsen against Dan Quayle. I mean, that was just a destruction. And you know, for that Lloyd Bentsen was rewarded with a trip back to the Senate, and Dan Quayle became vice president.

Bakari, you are a supporter of Kamala Harris. She's had good moments in debates and not so great moments. What do you think is important for her to do tonight?

SELLERS: I just think she has to be magnanimous. I think that she has to show the American public that she can be president of the United States, is where we started this question.

I do think that Mike Pence is a great debater, not just his time. You don't become governor and go to the United States Congress and be vice president of the United States without this skill set. We have to recognize that.

But her (AUDIO GAP) prosecutor will help her effectively as we all know, as Kamala says, prosecute the case. One of my larger concerns, though, doesn't have to -- doesn't have to do with what's going on in the room in the debate hall. I think they'll both hold their own.

I think Kamala, though, has to overcome something else no candidate in history has, which are the stereotypes associated with a black woman on stage like this. No one has ever seen what they're going to see tonight in the way it's covered, from descriptions of her mannerisms, to her tone, to the way she interacted with Mike Pence, all those things are going to be analyzed through a lens that we're not familiar with.

So, she has to beat Mike Pence and she has to beat stereotypes.

TAPPER: Interesting. Bakari Sellers, Scott Jennings, thanks so much to both of you. Also great to have you on.

Be sure to tune in for the vice presidential debate between Mike Pence and Kamala Harris. CNN special live coverage starts at 7:00 p.m. Eastern.

Three, yes, right now, only three states in the United States that are actually (AUDIO GAP) when it comes to coronavirus cases. Stick around. We'll cover that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:28:47]

TAPPER: The national lead now. Warnings about the coronavirus pandemic getting worse in the fall months appear to be a reality. For the first time since late August, the U.S. is averaging more than 44,000 new coronavirus cases daily.

As CNN's Erica Hill reports for us now, that alarming trend comes as Dr. Anthony Fauci is predicting this country could see upwards of 400,000 deaths if action is not taken soon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ERICA HILL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Some New York city neighborhoods facing new shutdowns as positivity rates top 5 percent.

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D), NEW YORK CITY, NY: We need to stop this outbreak dead in its tracks for the good of all New York City.

HILL: For at least the next two weeks, gatherings including religious services, severely limited. Nonessential businesses and schools closed amid concern and pushback.

JACK TOGATI, OWNER, 18TH AVE. BAKERY: (INAUDIBLE) get to check, no matter what happens. See, if we stop working, we don't eat.

HILL: Strict enforcement and steep fines also part of the plan.

Nationwide, new cases are rising, averaging more than 44,000 a day. Numbers we saw back in late august.

WILLIAM HASELTINE, FORMER PROFESSOR, HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL, HARVARD SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: If you relax, this is what happens. This is not the second, the feared second wave. This is just merely sloppiness on the part of government and people individually.

[16:30:00]