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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Airline Crisis; Trump Returns to Oval Office; Interview With Former Acting CDC Director Dr. Richard Besser. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired October 07, 2020 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:30:01]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. WILLIAM HASELTINE, INFECTIOUS DISEASE EXPERT: This is just merely sloppiness on the part of government and people individually.

ERICA HILL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Just three states are moving in the right direction. About half are seeing new cases rise.

Of those, four New England states are reporting a spike of more than 50 percent.

GOV. PHIL SCOTT (R-VT): I continue to be concerned, because, again, we're part of this region. We're not here on an island.

HILL: Boston just pushed in-person learning back to October 22, the Midwest not looking good, North Dakota posting the highest number of new cases per capita for any state since the pandemic began, Wisconsin setting all the wrong records.

The governor limiting public indoor gatherings to 25 percent capacity, urging residents to stay home, tweeting: "We have to change the course of this virus."

It's one of seven states reporting new daily highs for hospitalizations.

DR. ASHISH JHA, DIRECTOR, HARVARD GLOBAL HEALTH INSTITUTE: You have a lot of infection sort of built into the population by the time hospitalizations start rising.

HILL: Brown County hit particularly hard. The Green Bay Packers announcing the level of infection there is just too high to welcome any fans at Lambeau Field.

Beyond the numbers, the daily reality becoming more bleak for millions of Americans.

ROSE RODRIGUEZ, LOST AIRPORT JOB DUE TO COVID-19: Sometimes, we eat. Sometimes, we don't.

HILL: Families struggling to eat, to pay rent, to find a job, as hope for any help from Washington fades.

IAN LORDI, FURLOUGH FLIGHT ATTENDANT: It's a punch in the gut. What are you supposed to do? It's horrible.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're all hurting. Every one of us are hurting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: And, Jake, as we look at the sports world, just a short time ago, the chief medical officer for the NFL was asked about the possibility of perhaps the league pausing the season for the week ending on Sunday.

Eleven players had tested positive, 15 staff members. The chief medical officer saying every option is on that table. He said it's always been this way. That could meet a pause. It could mean other changes. So we will continue to keep an eye on that.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: I wish you had good news for us.

Erica Hill, thank you so much.

Let's bring in Dr. Richard Besser, who was acting director for the CDC under President Obama.

Let's start with your reaction to President Trump, still contagious, going to the Oval Office this afternoon, a source telling CNN that White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows and aide Dan Scavino, President Trump's social media adviser, have been with President Trump in the Oval Office today.

What do you make of this?

DR. RICHARD BESSER, FORMER ACTING DIRECTOR, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION: What I would love to see is our political leaders modeling the behavior that CDC, state health departments, local health departments are calling on everyone to do.

And that's, if you're infected, you need to stay away from other people. And, Jake, for millions of Americans, that's not possible. People live in apartments with multigenerational households.

For someone who has the ability to stay away from other people, they need to do that.

TAPPER: Meanwhile, the CDC director said that it is safe for Vice President Mike Pence to attend tonight's debate in Utah.

I have to say, the CDC's own guidance says -- quote -- "Stay home for 14 days after your last contact with a person who has COVID-19."

We know the president -- I'm sorry -- Vice President Pence was in the Oval Office with Trump last Tuesday, although nobody at the White House is letting us know when President Trump last tested negative.

As a general note, given all the people in the Trump orbit who have now tested positive -- I think we're at 19 cases -- is it safe for Senator Kamala Harris or for moderators Susan Page to be on a stage with Vice President Pence?

BESSER: This is one of those times where you would like to see the CDC director out front holding a press conference going through this.

So, a CDC -- a letter from the CDC director says that Vice President Pence does not meet the criteria to require quarantining. That would mean that he did not spend more than 15 minutes less than six feet from someone who was infected.

And given the number of cases that are now associated with the White House, with the Rose Garden, you would really like someone to walk you through that to know that that is safe.

The Cleveland Clinic is providing the guidance in terms of the setup for the debate. And the distance is great. The Plexiglas is great. But you would really like someone from public health to be out front answering questions, so that the country can be assured that that risk is really not there.

TAPPER: There have been presidential debates done remotely. In 1960, Richard Nixon and John F. Kennedy were on opposite sides of the country, one in New York, one in Los Angeles. It could be done in different rooms, but they're not doing it that way.

The candidates are going to be 12 feet apart, we're told. There's going to be this Plexiglas between them.

Vice President Pence's team did not want the barrier up. They actually even mocked Harris for wanting it. Does that Plexiglas actually do anything?

BESSER: Well, it's -- when I read through guidance, it's not something that's there. There are barriers that are used.

[16:35:00]

But it depends somewhat on the setting. CDC on their on their Web site did put up new information about COVID in the air, airborne COVID being one of the ways, not the primary ways, but one of the ways it can be transmitted.

So you wouldn't want that to be the only protection measure you have. The distance matters. The fact that people are being tested matters. That everyone in the venue is going to be wearing masks, that matters.

All of these pieces are part of it. And it makes me think, Jake, about all of the pieces that everyone around the country needs to be doing, if we don't want those numbers you were talking about that Dr. Fauci is predicting to become true. They don't have to become true, if we all take the measures to get this under control.

TAPPER: But don't you think that the Commission on Presidential Debates and the Cleveland Clinic, which is in charge of the safety, the health safety at these events, need to come together and say, we're doing this event, but Pence, Vice President Pence, you have been exposed to people who test positive, so you're going to be in a different room, or both of you are going to be in different rooms, and we're going to do it remotely?

Isn't that the safest thing? Why is this even worth the risk?

BESSER: Well, I think what would be great is if, today and every day, we were hearing from our public health leaders about why things were being done in different situations.

And that would help reassure Americans where decisions were being made for public health reasons and where things were being done for political reasons.

Without that, there's always going to be that feeling that you can't tell the difference. And when public health then says something, some people are going to buy it and other people won't.

TAPPER: A respected epidemiologist who also once served as CDC director reportedly encouraged the current CDC director, Robert Redfield, to call out the president and his pressuring of the CDC.

In a private letter to Redfield obtained by "USA Today," Dr. William Foege writes -- quote -- "The White House has had no hesitation to blame and disgrace CDC" -- unquote.

He goes on to write -- quote -- "When they, those in the White House, go on to fire you, this will be a multiweek-story and you can hold your head high" -- unquote.

This letter was after Dr. Scott Atlas was appointed to the Coronavirus Task Force. Atlas doesn't have a background in infectious diseases.

William Foege making the case that Redfield could better expose the White House's flaws and faults and problems here by coordinating his own firing, rather than just resigning.

You're a former acting CDC director. What did you make of this all?

BESSER: Well, Dr. Foege is one of my heroes. He is responsible, in large part, for the eradication of smallpox around the world.

And he is someone that we all look up to in public health. And I know that was meant as a private letter to Dr. Redfield. And what he was -- what he was doing was calling on the CDC director to ensure he was doing everything he could to defend the agency and the scientists.

He expressed deep concern over the loss of trust that's taken place because CDC has not been allowed to lead. And he called on Dr. Redfield to call that out, to call out where there's been political interference, and then let the cards fall where they may in terms of whether he got fired or not.

And we will see over time what Dr. Redfield decides to do, but it's absolutely essential that we do everything we can to regain the trust in one of the world's best public health agencies, a trust that now is really in tatters.

TAPPER: Yes.

Dr. Richard Besser, as always, great to see you. Thanks so much for joining us.

More on our breaking news: What message is President Trump sending by violating his administration's own guidelines about coronavirus?

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:43:01]

TAPPER: Just minutes ago, President Trump returned to the Oval Office, despite still being infected with coronavirus.

And a source tells CNN that both Chief of Staff Mark Meadows and social media adviser Dan Scavino were in the Oval Office with the president. They were wearing protective gear, we're told.

Joining us now, "The New York Times"' Peter Baker and "The New Yorker"'s Susan Glasser. They have covered the White House for decades. They're out with a brand-new book called "The Man Who Ran Washington: The Life and Times of James A. Baker III."

It's getting incredible reviews.

Peter, I want to get to your book in a sec.

But I have to ask. You have been covering the White House for decades now. For the second day in a row, President Trump's doctor issued a written statement, hasn't taken questions, is not providing the information that we're used to getting when a president has a health issue.

Based on your reporting, how much can the American people trust what the White House is saying about President Trump's current condition?

PETER BAKER, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Well, I think the White House has made very clear that it's not giving the full picture of the president's health and doesn't intend to.

We have asked questions repeatedly about when his last negative test was, what these scans show of his lungs, all sorts of questions that they have either decided not to answer or given partial information for.

Even the president's doctor, who is a doctor and not a political aide, the other day admitted that he basically gave a rosy presentation because he knew the person was watching on television and wanted to make him feel good.

So, you can't really assume that we're getting the full picture at this point. TAPPER: And just -- I just want to make sure our viewers understand

that the reason you two aren't social distancing is that you're married, just -- people might not know. People might not know that.

(LAUGHTER)

TAPPER: OK, anyway, Susan, it's not just affecting the White House, of course. It's spreading throughout.

Nearly the entire Joint Chiefs of Staff in quarantine after possible exposure. But the president seems to want to act as though nothing's wrong. There's a photo of a bunch of White House aides not wearing masks today.

Are they in denial? Are they just lying about how bad things are, so as to president a false picture? What's going on here exactly?

SUSAN GLASSER, "THE NEW YORKER": Well, Jake, I mean, I think it's all of the above, right?

[16:45:01]

I mean, you have a situation where, so close to the election, President Trump has spent months in a form -- one form or another of coronavirus denialism.

And I think actually even contracting the disease, he's unwilling to change that position now. And it seems to me that what's interesting about this is that he's forced so many other people to go along with violating basic common sense and public health things.

The question is really, is there any point at which this White House staff is going to say, enough is enough, you're putting our lives at risk, you're putting us in danger?

Lots of off-the-record or on-background crumbling, but, so far, essentially, they have been given no choice by the president but to publicly go along with this.

TAPPER: So, Peter, you two wrote this new book about the ultimate Washington insider, James Baker. He worked for three presidents. He's a former White House chief of staff, Treasury secretary, secretary of state.

You write about how, his being an old-school Republican, he struggled to vote for President Trump. But he did vote for President Trump.

You write -- quote -- "What he had learned in a lifetime of wielding power was that, on the outside, you had none. Becoming a never-Trumper would have meant giving up whatever modest influence he had left. Whether he actually needed it anymore was not the point."

Now, I know you two did an event just today with Secretary Baker. And he didn't say who he was going to vote for. But he did say he believes in conservative principles and the Democratic platform terrifies him.

So what does that mean?

BAKER: Yes, he was pretty tough, I think, in his assessment of where things are today. He talked about how our alliances overseas are so frayed, they're broken, how the next president has to do something to repair them.

He talked about the fiscal debt bomb that is about to go off. He said last week's debate was a disaster. And yet he has not yet broken with President Trump. He says: Look, I'm a conservative, and I believe in these principles. And I'm -- he's stuck with his party so far.

I think it's been a striking answer on his part, because I think it talks about the modern Republican Party, sort of a parable for where they are. They may not like what President Trump is doing. They may not like the kind of person he is, but they have more or less stuck with him.

And I think that that tells you why he's done as well as he has done with Republicans in the polls, and about a month out from the election.

TAPPER: I guess that's true.

But, Susan, he was best friends with George H.W. Bush, right? He wasn't even involved in politics before. And the Bushes are no fans of the Trumps. And the feeling is the same on President Trump's end.

GLASSER: Well, that's exactly right.

It's really -- it's very interesting, Jake, because he had -- of everyone, you would think Jim Baker would have an easy pass, essentially, not to (AUDIO GAP) and to just say, well, my loyalties are to the Bush family, or I'm just going to sit this out.

But I think it does tell you why more than 40 percent of the American people still are telling pollsters that they're going to vote for Donald Trump, right? It's really illustrative of why the hostile takeover of the Republican Party has worked.

And, again, as a subject for our biography, we kept asking him these questions over and over and over again. And I think it was interesting for people watching this event to experience what we experienced, which was a surprise that someone who really is the un-Trump in so many ways, and came from an era when politics worked differently, would go along with a man he finds so distasteful.

TAPPER: Susan Glasser, Peter Baker, thanks so much for joining us.

And congratulations. The reviews are incredible.

The new book, again, "The Man Who Ran Washington: The Life and Times of James A. Baker III."

Thanks to both of you.

How one airport is doing what a lot of schools and offices across the country have not been able to do yet to slow the spread of coronavirus.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:53:25]

TAPPER: The money lead now.

Trump's latest tweets calling off stimulus talks, followed by mixed messages, are sending the already bruised and battered airline industry into a tailspin.

CNN's Pete Muntean has more now on how airline workers say they're suffering because of Congress and the president's lack of action.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BREAUNNA ROSS, FLIGHT ATTENDANT: As all of you know, the airline industry has been impacted greatly by this global pandemic.

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When flight attendant Breaunna Ross addressed the passengers of her American Airlines flight, she didn't expect to leave them with a tearful goodbye.

ROSS: For myself and one other crew member on our flight today, this means we will be furloughed October 1. And, unfortunately, this was my last working flight before that day comes.

MUNTEAN: Airlines say they will recall Ross and the roughly 50,000 workers they cut last week, but only if they get $25 billion in a new stimulus bill.

New tweets from President Trump have thrown a deal into disarray. It's the latest breakdown in talks with House Democrats that airlines call disheartening.

ROSS: People see numbers on TV, but we are real people that are really struggling right now.

MUNTEAN: Ross says she's living on savings from her last few months on the job.

Just furloughed workers say new federal help is their best hope; 8,000 flight attendants at American Airlines alone are now looking for jobs.

ALLIE MALIS, FLIGHT ATTENDANT: It's been a roller coaster. It's -- we have been high. We have been low. We have been on the verge of making this happen for so long, and then for it to all just fall apart.

[16:55:00]

MUNTEAN: In a new letter, airline unions are urging Congress to pass a stand-alone stimulus for airlines. President Trump tweeted his support, but House leaders stress the bill

failed you in the Senate. Airline unions say lawmakers must end this stimulus standoff, with workers caught in the middle.

SARA NELSON, PRESIDENT, ASSOCIATION OF FLIGHT ATTENDANTS: These are people who have been on the front lines since the beginning of this virus. Hiding is cruel, and it's got to be reversed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MUNTEAN: There could be more furloughs if Congress does not act.

Delta says it will furlough 1,700 pilots starting November 1. Southwest says its employees could face pay cuts without federal help. And you can see why airlines need it, Jake -- 5:00 p.m. at Reagan National Airport, this place is practically a ghost town.

TAPPER: Yes, nobody's flying because it's not safe, because the government has failed to protect the population.

Pete Muntean, thanks so much.

There are more people traveling by plane since the early days of the pandemic. And the TSA has changed protocols to try to boost passenger confidence.

One airport in Florida is going even farther. They're planning to offer COVID tests to all passengers who pass through.

CNN's Randi Kaye takes a look now inside this first-in-the-nation testing program.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm going to make you tear up, but I'm not going to make you cry. OK?

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This may look like a doctor's office.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Great. Go to your happy place and count to five. OK? And don't pull back from me. Awesome job. Thank you so much.

KAYE: But it's Tampa International Airport, one of the first airports in the country to offer COVID tests to departing and arriving passengers.

Passenger Gevelyn McCaskill was flying to Massachusetts and didn't want to quarantine for 14 days, as the state requires, unless you have been tested.

GEVELYN MCCASKILL, TRAVELER: I'm going to Massachusetts, and because of the restrictions there, I figured, let me get it in Tampa. And then I heard about this literally 24 hours ago, that this pilot was launching. I'm like, oh, my God.

KAYE: All passengers can be tested if they're traveling or have traveled within 72 hours.

There's a fee for the test too, $57 for the rapid antigen test, or $125 for the PCR test, which may take a couple of days for results, but is considered the gold standard. BayCare Health System has partnered with Tampa's airport.

DR. NISHANT ANAND, BAYCARE HEALTH SYSTEM: We believe that in order to get through this pandemic, we have to have widespread testing. We have to be able to test and allow people that have access.

KAYE: People like Victoria and Louis Kikis, who are heading to New York City.

VICTORIA KIKIS, TRAVELER: For me, it's -- the cost is irrelevant. It's just a matter of doing the right thing.

LOUIS KIKIS, TRAVELER: We're meeting family and friends. And I just want to share that we're not doing anything that will harm anybody else.

KAYE: The couple chose the rapid test.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If it was positive, there would be a plus.

KAYE: And after 15 minutes passed, they learned they tested negative.

Tampa International's CEO hopes these tests will bring more travelers back to the airport and the skies.

JOE LOPANO, CEO, TAMPA INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT: Yes, it's for all passengers, no matter what airline they're on, no matter what destination they're going to. And we think it's a real boost to the confidence of the travelers.

KAYE: A confidence boost is just what this woman needed. She's on her way to Virginia to see her 75-year-old mom.

AMY, TRAVELER: Just want to make sure that I don't have COVID. I don't want to expose her. So this is a perfect way to make sure that I'm being safe and keeping her safe as well.

KAYE: Her rapid test came back negative.

Statewide, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis' office tells CNN anyone can get a COVID test if they want one. Currently, Florida is averaging about 25,000 tests per day, half of what it was doing during the summer surge, but that could soon change.

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): I think it's going to really contribute to our efforts as we continue to work to protect that the most vulnerable to COVID, but also making sure kids are in school.

KAYE: Florida will receive another 6.4 million rapid tests. Already, 800 nursing homes have received some of the tests, and the state plans to deploy rapid test to public schools next.

The tests are also available statewide at drive-through sites for those who are symptomatic or elderly.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAYE: And, Jake, testing is available daily from 8:00 to 2:00 p.m. They can do about 140 tests a day, but they say, if there's great demand, they think they can ramp that up.

The reason they're doing this is to bring travelers back, because passenger traffic is down at Tampa Airport about 63 percent, which affects, of course, the concessions, the car rentals, and everything else.

But it's worth noting, Jake, if someone does test positive at that site, the airport team cannot prevent them from traveling. They can report it to the local health department. But it's really up to the traveler to not get on that airplane.

You think they would do the right thing because they went through getting the test to begin with. But it is up to the traveler themselves, Jake.

TAPPER: Another depending on the honor system, which I don't know that...

KAYE: Absolutely.

TAPPER: I don't know if that's for this era.

Thank you so much, Randi Kaye.

Follow me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter @JakeTapper. You can tweet the show @THELEADCNN. We actually read them.

Our coverage on CNN continues right now.

I will see you later for our debate coverage this evening.

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