Return to Transcripts main page

The Lead with Jake Tapper

President Trump's Condition?; Trump Withdraws From Next Presidential Debate; Michigan Governor Speaks Out on Alleged Kidnapping Plot. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired October 08, 2020 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:20]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

And we begin with shocking breaking news, a news conference about to begin from Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, a Democrat, after six men were charged in a plot to kidnap her and overthrow several state governments.

Let's listen in.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D-MI): -- and federal charges against 13 members of two militia groups who were preparing to kidnap and possibly kill me.

When I put my hand on the Bible, and took the oath of office 22 months ago, I knew this job would be hard. But I will be honest. I never could have imagined anything like this.

I want to start by saying thank you to our law enforcement. Thank you to the fearless FBI agents. And thank you to the brave Michigan State Police troopers who participated in this operation, acting under the leadership of Colonel Joe Gasper.

I also want to thank Attorney General Nessel and the U.S. attorney's Birge and Schneider and their teams for pursuing criminal charges that hopefully will lead to convictions, bringing these sick and depraved men to justice.

As a mom with two teenage daughters and three stepsons, my husband and I are eternally grateful to everyone who put themselves in harm's way to keep our family safe.

2020 has been a hard year for all of us, hard for our doctors and nurses and truck drivers, grocery store workers. It's been hard for the teachers and students and parents, hard for those who have had to stay isolated to stay safe. And it's not over yet.

But here's what I know. We're Michiganders. We have grit. We have heart, and we are tough as hell. We made it through the Great Recession. We made it through auto bankruptcies. We made it through floods and polar vortexes. But none of us has faced a challenge like COVID-19, not in our lifetimes.

I have said it many times. We are not one another's enemy. This virus is our enemy. And this enemy is relentless. It doesn't care if you're a Republican or a Democrat, young or old, rich or poor. It doesn't care if we're tired of it. It threatens us all, our lives, our families, our jobs, our businesses, our economy.

It preys on our elderly and medically vulnerable residents. And it has exposed deep inequities in our society.

This should be a moment for national unity, where we all pull together as Americans to meet this challenge head on with the same might and muscle that put a man on the moon, seeing the humanity in one another and doing our part to help our country get through this.

Instead, our head of state has spent the past seven months denying science, ignoring his own health experts, stoking distrust, fomenting anger, and giving comfort to those who spread fear and hatred and division.

Just last week, the president of the United States stood before the American people and refused to condemn white supremacists and hate groups like these two Michigan militia groups. "Stand back and stand by," he told them. "Stand back and stand by."

Hate groups heard the president's words not as a rebuke, but as a rallying cry, as a call to action.

When our leaders speak, their words matter. They carry weight. When our leaders meet with, encourage, or fraternize with domestic terrorists, they legitimize their actions, and they are complicit. When they stoke and contribute to hate speech, they are complicit.

In 1981, President Ronald Reagan spoke to the NAACP's annual convention. And his comments stand in sharp contrast to what we have seen on the national and state level from his own beloved party in 2020.

He said: "A few isolated groups in the backwater of American life still hold perverted notions of what America is all about. Recently, in some places in the nation, there's been a disturbing reoccurrence of bigotry and violence."

[15:05:03]

Then Reagan sent a direct message to those who still adhere to senseless racism and religious prejudice: "You are the ones who are out of step with our society," he said. "You are the ones who willfully violate the meaning of the dream that is America. And this country, because of what it stands for, will not stand for your conduct."

So, let me say this loud and clear. Hatred, bigotry and violence have no place in the great state of Michigan. If you break the law or conspire to commit heinous acts of violence against anyone, we will find you. We will hold you accountable. And we will bring you to justice.

For the past seven months, I have made tough choices to keep our state safe. These have been gut-wrenching decisions no governor has ever had to make. And I get it. Life has been hard for us all.

When I get out of bed every morning, I think about the high school seniors, like my daughter, who missed graduation ceremonies, those Michiganders who have missed weddings and funerals. I think about all the moms who are working from home, making breakfast every day, logging their kids onto their Zoom class and doing the laundry.

I think about the small business owners who spent a lifetime building something great who are now hanging on by their fingernails just to keep the lights on. The disruption this virus has caused to our daily lives is immeasurable.

And it's already taken the lives of more than 210,000 Americans, including over 6,800 right here in Michigan. As painful as these losses are, our hard work and sacrifices have saved thousands of lives.

We have one of the strongest economic recoveries in the nation. Make no mistake, there will be more hard days ahead. But I want the people of Michigan to know this. As your governor, I will never stop doing everything in my power to keep you and your family safe.

You don't have to agree with me, but I do ask one thing. Never forget that we are all in this together. Let's show a little kindness and a lot more empathy. Let's give one another a little grace. And let's take care of each other.

Wear your mask. Stay six feet apart. Wash your hands frequently. And look out for your neighbors. We are Michiganders. I know we can get through this. We will get through this.

So, let's get through it together. Thank you.

TAPPER: You have been listening to Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, a Democrat, speaking for the first time since the FBI foiled and alleged plot to kidnap her.

Let's bring in CNN's Shimon Prokupecz, who's been following all the developments.

Shimon, what more can you tell us about these arrests made today?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so it's six individuals in connection to the plot, the alleged plot, to kidnap the governor.

But there are also several other people who were arrested as well by state authorities, which the authorities there were part of a militia.

Of course, this was all in hopes, according to authorities there, to overthrow the government, their unhappiness with the governor, and just generally their unhappiness with government overall.

One of the pieces of evidence that the FBI says they have is a video from one of the ringleaders of those six individuals, where he talks about being unhappy about some of the closures put in place by the governor there in Michigan, closing a gym because of the coronavirus.

Also, they talk about how they used undercover agents, how they also had informants. In fact, one of the informants in this case met one of the suspects at the June 17 rally there at the Michigan Capitol, the Second Amendment rally that, of course, garnered a lot of attention.

Working with these undercovers and working with these informants, the FBI was able to break up this plot. They say, the FBI, that they first discovered this plot early this year on social media. And from there, they worked it. They have video. They have wiretaps. They had someone wear -- one of the informants wore a wire in meetings, where they say the members of this group trained.

In one case, they tried to use an explosive device as part of their training. It did not work. But, all in all, the FBI was able to get in and try and prevent ultimately from this group and their attempt to kidnap the governor.

[15:10:00]

They also Jake talked about trying to kidnap her from her summer home, from a vacation home. They even did surveillance on some of her properties.

So, clearly, the FBI thought this was real. Clearly, authorities there thought this was real. And they say they made the arrest after members of this group made an exchange of money for explosives and then exchanged tactical gear on October 7. And so they moved in at that point, and they made the arrest, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Shimon, thank you so much. Continue to stay on top of the story and bring us any new information as it develops.

Let's bring in now Chairman Mike Rogers, former FBI special agent, former Michigan congressman, and former chairman of the House Intelligence Committee.

Congressman, thanks so much for joining us.

I want to get your reaction to this extensive alleged plot to both kidnap Michigan's governor and overthrow the government.

MIKE ROGERS, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, this is, obviously, serious.

And if you recall, Jake, this isn't the first time the Michigan militia has gone to the extreme of doing something dangerous. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols actually lived in Michigan for a period of time and attended some of the Michigan militia meetings.

And so what they have found over the years is that some of these, the folks who were at the Michigan militia portion didn't feel that they were aggressive enough and split off.

I'd be--

TAPPER: Oh, we lost -- we lost Mike Rogers. We will go back to him as soon as his video comes back.

Obviously, we should let you know about this programming note, that Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer will be on "ERIN BURNETT" this evening at 7:00 p.m. Eastern.

Let's turn now to the politics lead.

Complete and utter chaos today from the Trump campaign, the Trump campaign this afternoon saying that President Trump wants to delay the second Trump-Biden debate. That announcement comes after President Trump this morning suggesting he was pulling out of the second debate altogether, calling the debate commission's move to have the candidates appear remotely -- quote -- "not acceptable."

The suggestion that the candidates move -- go to remote town hall participation came after President Trump, of course, tested positive for coronavirus, and, frankly, after it became clear that the president and the White House were not going to fully disclose details about his illness, including when he last tested negative.

The White House has not been honest about the president's infection, and that literally could impact the health and even the mortality of others. It's a shameful and shocking development, though perhaps not out of character.

The Joe Biden campaign today announced that the Democratic nominee will, instead of the debate town hall, hold his own town hall next Thursday, given Trump's withdrawal from participation.

Let's go right now to CNN's White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins.

Kaitlan, this whole nation has had to adjust to this new virtual reality, millions of schoolchildren learning online, but President Trump calling a virtual debate unacceptable, and doing so, by the way, while he was on the phone with his favorite -- one of his favorite channels.

Why is it unacceptable?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, he made pretty clear in that interview that one of the reasons he doesn't like that idea is that they could mute him easily, which, of course, is something that a lot of people talk about, Jake, after that last debate, where it was constant interruption made basically from the president.

And so that's one of the reasons. I think another reason they're hesitant over it is that they were not consulted beforehand. The president said he found out just moments before it was officially announced. But, Jake, if these two candidates appeared virtually, it would be Joe

Biden, Donald Trump appearing on these computer screens. And it would basically be impossible for viewers not to view that through the lens of the ongoing pandemic.

And that is something that the president and the Trump campaign have tried to shift voters' attention away from, because they know that the president doesn't rate well when it comes to the pandemic. His numbers are incredibly bad with that.

And so I think they want to -- they know they're going to have to acknowledge it at a debate. They don't want it to be the whole focus of the debate, which it likely would be if they're appearing virtually, because the president was diagnosed with COVID-19 within two weeks of that original date.

So now it sounds like they could potentially move it to be in-person a week later than it was originally scheduled, though there are so questions about whether there's going to be a third debate, because they seem divided over that.

TAPPER: Yes, the president said the other day don't let the virus dominate your life. Too late. It's dominating our lives.

Kaitlan, President Trump, who is still infected with coronavirus and, as far as we know, still contagious, he's already talking about starting back up rallies?

COLLINS: Yes, he is.

He said he wanted to do a rally last night during the vice presidential debate. He felt like he could do one tonight. He says he's no longer contagious, Jake. We should note a medical experts speaking on behalf of the president has not confirmed that. They have not confirmed that the president has tested negative.

It's only been one week since he tested positive. But because we're not having this opportunity to hear from the president's doctor in- person and be able to ask him questions, the president is allowed to put his own spin on his health, which is what he is doing by saying he's essentially clean and not contagious, the things that he said this morning.

[15:15:01]

And so, instead, we have been relying on these written statements from Dr. Conley, the White House physician, and the White House said just a few moments ago, we're likely going to get another one of those today. So that would be three days without the president's doctor appearing in front of reporters, like he had been doing.

TAPPER: All right, Kaitlan Collins, thanks so much.

Let's bring in CNN's Jessica Dean.

Jessica, the Biden campaign is also now reversing course. First, the campaign said that Joe Biden wanted a second debate. Now they're saying, well, Trump withdrew, so we're not even going to go through with it. We're going to do our own town hall. What's the reasoning behind that?

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake, they said, look, once President Trump pulled out, they said, we're going to do our own thing on October 15. You noted that that's going to be a town hall in Philadelphia.

They want to have that experience with Joe Biden talking to voters. Then, when President Trump and his campaign asked for the debates to be pushed back and delayed, the Biden campaign then released another statement with Kate Bedingfield, saying that's absolutely unacceptable.

Let me read you a bit of what they said: "Trump's erratic behavior does not allow him to rewrite the calendar and pick new dates of his choosing. We look forward to participating in the final debate scheduled for October 22, which is already tied for the latest debate in 40 years. Donald Trump can show up or he can decline again. That is his choice."

Jake, it's interesting to note they have also asked -- the Biden campaign has asked for that final debate to be a town hall format. If you zoom out for a second, the Biden campaign over the last several months has tried as much as it can to make this a referendum about President Trump's COVID response and his leadership.

And when you look at this, they have a debate that is now being changed because the president has come down with coronavirus and he is acting erratically in this way, pulling out of debates. So it is a contrast the Biden campaign likes -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. And we will be talking to a top official of the Biden campaign, Kate Bedingfield, coming up.

Thanks so much, Jessica Dean.

President Trump is now suggesting he got coronavirus at a very specific White House event. Is there any proof that at all?

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:21:25]

TAPPER: We're back with our health lead today.

President Trump trying to paint a rosy picture of his health and putting on full display his fundamental misunderstanding of the virus that has now killed more than 212,000 people in the United States under his watch.

The president today claiming that he's no longer contagious, an assertion he is not qualified to make. And, frankly, we still do not know how far into his infection he is.

The president is also claiming he will now be immune to coronavirus, even though scientists still do not know definitively whether COVID patients develop any lasting immunity.

President Trump also calling his infection a -- quote -- "blessing from God," because only now that he has experienced it himself, he says, does he believe he understands the virus. Never mind, of course, the hundreds of thousands of Americans who have lost their lives to the deadly virus and consider it a curse, if anything.

One might note that those individuals did not get to get helicoptered to Walter Reed to experience the best health care anyone in the world can have.

As if those misstatements and obscenities were not enough, the president suggested today that he could have contracted the virus from a reception held for Gold Star families last Sunday, September 27.

Now, beyond the ugliness of apparently blaming Gold Star families for the infection, the assertion simply doesn't check out. Several people say they contracted the virus the day before the Gold Star event at the White House or with the president on Saturday, September 26, after the White House held outdoor and indoor events.

The reality is, we do not know so much about the president's infection or how he got it, because the White House refuses to answer so many questions about it, especially this key question: When did President Trump last test negative?

Minutes ago, a White House official claimed that that is private medical information, though White House officials are now admitting that the president is not tested daily, as they previously claimed he was. Rather, he's tested -- quote -- "regularly," whatever that means.

It's entirely possible the president was tested between the possible date of infection and the debate in Ohio, between the infection and the rally and fund-raiser in Minnesota, between the infection and the fund-raiser in New Jersey. And it's entirely possible he was not.

If not, that is astoundingly reckless behavior, though in keeping with the president's pandemic response since January

I want to bring in Dr. Paul Offit. He's director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.

Dr. Offit, thanks for joining us.

I want you to take a listen to President Trump describing his current condition today.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't think I'm contagious at all. Well, first of all, if I'm at a rally, I stand by myself very far away

from everybody, so whether I was or not. But I wouldn't -- I still wouldn't go to a rally if I was contagious.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, Dr. Offit, from what we know about the president's infection, which, granted, is not much, is it possible that the president is no longer contagious?

DR. PAUL OFFIT, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF PHILADELPHIA: Well, the CDC recommends that you should consider yourself contagious for 10 days after your first onset of symptoms.

Also, even if you get tested, you're assuming that the test is 100 percent accurate, which is not true of any test. So, I think to err on the side of caution, you should, he should consider himself contagious for 10 days until that first symptom.

And if he's blaming the Gold Star event or -- it's the fact of the matter is, he doesn't wear a mask. I mean, it's, number one, social distance, number two, wear a mask. I mean, do those things, and you can dramatically get on top of this infection.

He sets a terrible example for everybody in this country when you see him walk around among crowds without a mask on. It's just unexcusable.

[15:25:03]

TAPPER: President Trump now refusing to go forward with the debate that he would do remotely. Joe Biden would too. And he also wants to restart rallies. You have seen these rallies, no masks required, no distancing.

Given what we know, what's the soonest date that that could happen safely, if at all?

OFFIT: Well, again, I think until we get on top of this infection, you can't have rallies where people are all bunched together, often, usually without masks on.

It's hard to get on top of this infection. And in his defense, every country has struggled with this. But there are three ways to do it. One, and most importantly, is social distance. Two is wearing masks.

And then three is a vaccine. I mean, if I'm confronted with somebody who had -- who's contagious, like him, the number one thing I would want to do is stand six feet away. If I don't have that option, the number two thing would be to wear a mask. And the third thing would be a vaccine.

And both social distancing and the mask are far more powerful than a vaccine, but he sort of plays it the opposite way. He pretends or acts as if this vaccine is going to be this magic powder that is sprinkled across the land and it's all going to go away.

But, actually, he's choosing not to go with the most powerful thing we have, which is social distancing and a mask.

TAPPER: Dr. Offit, do you trust what you're hearing from the president's medical team about his health?

OFFIT: Sadly, no.

I mean, as a doctor, your job is to tell the truth. And if you feel that you can't tell the truth, then say that. Say I'm uncomfortable giving confidential information. The president has asked me not to give information.

But when he's asked -- when the doctor was asked the question, Conley was asked the question, is the president on supplemental oxygen? Well, he's not on supplemental oxygen now, and he wasn't a supplemental oxygen yesterday. Is he -- has he ever been on supplemental oxygen? Well, he's not on it now or yesterday.

So, he's just answered the question. He's just told you, yes, he's been on supplemental oxygen. So don't misrepresent information. Then you -- then no one trusts you. And it's just not right.

I mean, we're not very good liars. And so leave the lying to people that are better at it.

TAPPER: President Trump also said this about his infection. Take a listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TRUMP: And remember this. When you catch it, you get better. And then you're immune. As soon as everything goes away for me, you're immune.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

TAPPER: Do we know that for a fact? Where's the science on this?

OFFIT: Well, we certainly know not everybody gets better, since 200,000 lives have been lost.

Here's what we can say. I think the natural infection does appear to protect against moderate to severe disease. I mean, you have seen a number of cases where there's been second infections, but those second infections are usually much more mild. That's fine. I mean, that's, frankly, what we would expect from a vaccine.

We just want natural infection or vaccination to protect against moderate to severe disease to keep you out of the hospital, and to keep you from dying. That's what I think we can expect from this.

But it's not true of everyone. And so he may actually be reinfected and still shed the virus even in -- whether it's asymptomatic or mildly symptomatically. So he should always be wearing a mask. We all should always be wearing a mask. Assume everyone you come in contact with is asymptomatically infected.

Just assume that, and we will be better off. TAPPER: Can you think of any reason why the White House would not

want to disclose when President Trump last tested negative?

OFFIT: It's just all part of this kind of massive denialism.

I mean, to get on top of this pandemic, you need hard work and hard thinking.

What we get from this administration is denialism and magical thinking that, whether it's hydroxychloroquine, or convalescent plasma, or bleach, or U.V. light, or that we just want it all to magically go away, instead of doing the hard work that comes with distancing and mask-wearing.

We could go back to work much more comfortably, we could go back to school more comfortably, but this administration does not set the tone for how to do all the hard work that's necessary to do that.

It's really frustrating.

TAPPER: The president also appeared to blame an event with Gold Star families in the East Room of the White House for his infection.

There's no evidence that's true. That was on Sunday, September 27. It doesn't seem to fit with what we know, given all the people that got infected the day before, on Saturday, September 26.

What do you what do you make of that?

OFFIT: Either way, whether it's in the Rose Garden ceremony, or whether it's, we know, with the Gold Star families, he could protect himself and others around him by wearing a mask.

The fact that everybody in that Gold star -- that picture that you showed, where everybody in the Rose Garden isn't wearing a mask, it is in some ways out of tribute to him, out of respect for him. You don't wear a mask, so we're not going to wear a mask.

And it's just a terrible message to send. It's the exact opposite of the message he wants to send.

So, either way, it's his fault for not wearing a mask.

TAPPER: Just, Dr. Offit, before you go, have you ever seen a leader in the world, in the Western world, behave so irresponsibly in the midst of a health crisis?

OFFIT: I have never seen a level of science denialism like this.

I have never seen anybody willing to perturb science-based federal agencies.