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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Interview with Biden Deputy Campaign Manager Kate Bedingfield; Trump Withdraws From Next Presidential Debate; Interview With Former BARDA Director Dr. Rick Bright. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired October 08, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: And welcome to our second hour of THE LEAD.

I'm Jake Tapper. And we begin this hour with the politics lead.

The next Trump-Biden debate, it's up in the air. The Biden campaign is refusing to go along with the Trump campaign's sudden push to delay the debate schedule. Biden spokeswoman Kate Bedingfield -- quote -- "Trump's erratic behavior does not allow him to rewrite the calendar."

The Trump campaign is pushing to move the schedule because President Trump is refusing to participate in the virtual debate town hall a week from today. Instead, the president says he wants an in-person debate, despite the fact that he has an active coronavirus infection and could very well be contagious.

Plus, as CNN's Kaitlan Collins reports, President Trump today said he's looking to restart rallies, as he makes these dubious claims that he's no longer contagious, based on nothing, and will be immune to the virus now that he's had it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The timing of the next presidential debate now in doubt after President Trump rejected a move by organizers to make it virtual due to his COVID-19 diagnosis.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That's not what debating is all about. You sit behind a computer and do a debate. It's ridiculous. And then they cut you off whenever they want.

COLLINS: A virtual debate would make it impossible for the audience not to see the candidates through the lens of the pandemic.

The Trump and Biden campaigns have agreed to do the second debate in- person one week later than scheduled, but the two sides are divided over whether a third debate should follow.

As his doctors are revealing little information about his health, the president is putting his own spin on things and claims he's ready to resume rallies.

TRUMP: I'm back because I'm a perfect physical specimen and I'm extremely young.

COLLINS: In his first interview since being hospitalized, Trump wasn't asked when he last tested negative and claimed, without evidence, that he's no longer contagious less than a week after testing positive.

TRUMP: I don't think I'm contagious at all. I'm essentially very clean.

COLLINS: The president suggested he caught the virus at a White House celebration for the families of fallen soldiers, who insisted on hugging and thanking him.

TRUMP: They come within an inch of my face sometimes. They want to hug me and they want to kiss me. And they do. And, frankly, I'm not telling them to back up.

COLLINS: The Gold Star families who attended the ceremony 12 days ago were tested beforehand and a spokesman told CNN no one has shown symptoms since.

The president also loved accusations against Senator Kamala Harris that echoed the late Joe McCarthy's Red Scare in the 1950s and stood in stark contrast to Vice President Mike Pence last night.

TRUMP: This monster, she's a communist. She's not a socialist. She's well beyond a socialist.

MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And I also want to congratulate you, as I did on that phone call, on the historic nature of your nomination.

COLLINS: Trump's fresh attacks drowning out what many in Trump world viewed as a successful V.P. debate.

LARRY KUDLOW, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: Mike Pence looked like it president to me.

COLLINS: On Capitol Hill today, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi cast doubt on the president's health and raised questions about his ability to govern.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): Tomorrow -- come here tomorrow. We're going to be talking about the 25th Amendment.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Now, Jake, we asked the White House once again today when the president's last negative test result was before he tested positive last Thursday.

They once again refused to say, this time citing his private medical history and saying his doctors want to keep it private, though, Jake, I doubt that's a standard that's going to apply to his next negative test result.

TAPPER: All right, Kaitlan Collins, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Joining me now to discuss is the communications director and deputy campaign manager for Joe Biden, Kate Bedingfield.

Kate, thanks for joining us.

Just to be clear, so this debate that was scheduled for October 15, the second debate, it's a town hall. Biden and Trump were going to appear remotely. Trump said he wasn't going to do it anymore. Now he wants to push it.

Joe Biden will not participate, because Trump isn't.

KATE BEDINGFIELD, BIDEN DEPUTY CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Well, look, here's what people need to understand.

Joe Biden and Donald Trump agreed in June to three debates laid out by the Commission on Presidential Debates. Now, at the last minute, Donald Trump clearly doesn't want to have to face voters.

Remember, this is a town hall format debate that we were supposed to have on the 15th. He clearly doesn't want to have to face voters. He doesn't want to have to answer questions about his handling of COVID or his handling of the economy. And so he's trying to rewrite the rules at the last minute.

We're not going to allow that. We have agreed to three debates. Joe Biden is eager to talk to voters. In fact, we have scheduled a town hall for the night of the 15th. Since Donald Trump doesn't want to show up to the debate, we're going to do a national televised town hall on the 15th, so that Joe Biden can take questions from voters and talk about his plans to move this country forward.

So, look, we're not going to let Donald Trump rewrite the rules on the one-yard line. We had all agreed to three debates laid out by the commission.

TAPPER: Yes.

BEDINGFIELD: Joe Biden plans to attend those debates.

Donald Trump's choosing not to show up. We're going to go do a town hall and have Joe Biden talk directly to the American people.

TAPPER: I get all that.

[16:05:00]

But, in 1980, when Carter refused to participate in a debate, Ronald Reagan still showed up and participated.

Why not have Joe Biden do the Commission on Presidential Debates town hall, as opposed to setting up your own? BEDINGFIELD: We are showing up. We're doing a national network town

hall. We're doing it -- you guys won't love for me to say this on your air, but we're doing it with ABC.

(PHONE RINGING)

BEDINGFIELD: Sorry.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: That's them probably calling right now,

BEDINGFIELD: Right. Right. Right.

(LAUGHTER)

BEDINGFIELD: So, we know we're doing it on ABC.

Every voter who was going to tune in to the debate on the 15th can have the opportunity to see Joe Biden on ABC on the 15th.

TAPPER: Yes, but why not do the commission's one. Why not do the commission's one? Because, obviously, that's -- they'd already set it up, planned for it, prepared for it. Why not just do theirs?

BEDINGFIELD: Because Donald Trump isn't -- because Donald Trump isn't going to show.

Donald Trump has already said he's not going to be there. So, if Donald Trump isn't going to be there, then we're going to use the opportunity to talk directly to the American people.

TAPPER: Do you -- would Joe Biden feel safe being in the same room as President Trump?

BEDINGFIELD: Well, look, I'm -- I will say I think that it is troubling that the White House has not been more transparent about the health of President Trump and the health of those around him, as the virus has clearly spread throughout the West Wing.

What I can speak to is the steps that we have taken to stay safe. We...

(PHONE RINGING)

TAPPER: Tell Stephanopoulos to stop calling, for God's sake.

(LAUGHTER)

BEDINGFIELD: I know. I know. I know.

I can speak to the steps that we have taken to stay safe. From the outset, when this virus broke out back in March, we committed to campaigning safely. We have been wearing masks. We have been socially distancing. We have been adhering to the gather limits in states across the country, as we have traveled, to ensure that we're not gathering more people than is medically advised in those states.

So, we have taken every precaution to stay safe, not just to keep the vice president and Senator Harris safe, but to keep the communities that we're visiting safe as well.

TAPPER: Right.

BEDINGFIELD: We have taken every precaution, and we will continue to do that through the end of this campaign.

TAPPER: So, the next debate, the third debate, I should say, is two weeks from today, I believe.

And, as far as I know, Joe Biden and Donald Trump are still both planning on attending. Will Vice President Biden feel safe being in the same room as Donald Trump and the Trump team?

BEDINGFIELD: Well, the obligation will certainly be on President Trump and the Trump team to show that...

TAPPER: But it was last time too. But it was last time too. And you saw what happened.

BEDINGFIELD: And it's troubling that the debate commission did not enforce those rules. And we would expect, we would demand, frankly, that, if we're moving forward with the third debate, which we hope that we will -- our hope is that we can do a town hall format, as agreed to, that will have the opportunity for the candidates to talk to voters, in that third debate.

We would hope that that would become the town hall format. And assuming that we move forward in-person, we will demand that President Trump and the Trump team demonstrate that they are not infectious, will demand that the commission enforce those rules, and that everybody who attends that debate is kept safe.

TAPPER: What kind of precautions will you require? I mean, will you demand that the Trump team actually not only claims that they have taken a negative test, but will you have to see the actual negative test before agreeing to be in the same room with the president?

BEDINGFIELD: Well, look, we -- our expectation is that the Cleveland clinic and the commission are going to enforce those rules. We will let the Cleveland Clinic dictate what is medically safe.

But, yes, our expectation is that they will provide information that unequivocally makes clear that nobody attending is infectious. And we're going to take every single precaution that we can, as we have from the outset.

I mean, we have really -- we have campaigned responsibly. Joe Biden believes that the words and the actions of a president matter. And when this virus came to our shores, he committed to taking every step that he could to encourage people to wear masks, to encourage people to socially distance, to do the things to look out for each other and try to get us through this crisis more quickly. That's something that he has done from the outset. And that's

something that he will continue to do in this campaign in the last 26 days.

TAPPER: All right, Kate, I'm going to let you answer your phone. It seems like there must be something going on, getting a lot of calls right now.

Kate Bedingfield from the Biden campaign, thank you so much.

BEDINGFIELD: Twenty-six days until the election.

TAPPER: I get it. I get it.

A key government scientist working on a vaccine quits over the Trump administration's response to the virus. He's going to join me, in his first interview since leaving his post Tuesday.

Plus: new details emerging about the alleged plot to kidnap the governor of Michigan and overthrow the government.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:14:06]

TAPPER: In our health lead today: As President Trump continues to ignore his own health experts, break isolation guidelines and prematurely promote coronavirus therapies, one key Trump administration scientist says he's had enough.

Rick Bright was the director of the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority, called BARDA. He was directly involved in developing a coronavirus vaccine, when he was abruptly ousted in April, after criticizing hydroxychloroquine, the drug embraced by the president.

Bright was then reassigned to a narrower role at the NIH, and days later filed an extensive whistle-blower complaint, accusing the administration of prioritizing cronyism over science.

But now Bright is leaving the federal government altogether and filing an amendment to his whistle-blower complaint.

This is his first interview since his Tuesday resignation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: And joining us now is Rick Bright.

Thanks so much for being here. We really appreciate it.

DR. RICK BRIGHT, FORMER DIRECTOR, BIOMEDICAL ADVANCED RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY: Jake, thanks for having me.

[16:15:03]

TAPPER: So, it has been less than a week since President Trump was diagnosed with coronavirus, or at least since we found out that he was diagnosed with coronavirus. He has been ignoring CDC guidelines to isolate. He's been going into the West Wing, going into the Oval Office. He's been talking about how he wants to get back on the campaign trail, resume rallies.

What's your reaction?

BRIGHT: Well, it's unfortunate, but it's absolutely predictable.

I mean, this is a president who has refused to follow public health guidelines. And, unfortunately, he has encouraged others to ignore those same guidelines. I would say it's very predictable that, sooner or later, he was going to get infected, and his entire family, and those close around him are also going to get infected.

So, we're seeing what we would predict play out in real life.

TAPPER: Speaker Pelosi said today that the president is -- quote -- "in an altered state right now" and suggested -- quote -- "There may be some impairment of judgment," due to the fact that not only does he have the virus, but he is on a medication, including a steroid that is known to have as a possible side effect effects on mood and irritability and judgment.

Is she going too far? Do you think that he is in an altered state right now, potentially?

BRIGHT: You know, we're missing in this whole situation is transparency about really how sick the president is.

We don't really have the truth about when he was infected, what stage of infection he's in. I don't think we know all of the various treatments he was given, in what combination, in what dosage. And so I would say anything's possible at this time.

I don't think she's going too far. I think she has every right to be concerned about his behavior, about his response and about his recovery, because we just don't know the truth yet.

TAPPER: It's true they have not been transparent. They have been opaque.

Why does it matter?

BRIGHT: It matters because it's in the message for America, as a message for people around the world.

We need to know what is wrong with our president. We need to know how sick he is. And we need to know what type of treatments he's getting, so we can learn from that, so other people will be able to follow the right example.

The president is giving a very mixed message right now. He is not well. We would not want any other person on the planet to do the things he's doing this soon after knowing they're infected. We wouldn't want someone up out of the hospital bed with these types of experimental therapies right now.

So, he's leading with a very bad example for the entire world, actually.

TAPPER: And how dangerous could that be, theoretically?

I mean, he is surrounded by, frankly, not a lot of guardrails. The people like General Kelly and General Mattis and others have long gone. And I don't know that he has anyone in his orbit who can tell him no, frankly.

What does it mean if he's not thinking rationally because of the medication he's on?

BRIGHT: It's very dangerous. He's in charge of a lot of things and makes a lot of important decisions for our country and for the world, actually.

And if he's not in the right, sound mind to make those decisions rationally, then he can be very reckless for our country and for the world.

TAPPER: There are at least now 20 people in the president's orbit who are infected with COVID. That's as many as we know about. There might be more.

We still don't know -- as you alluded to, we still don't know when he last tested negative, meaning we really don't have an idea of when he first contracted the disease.

The only explanation I can think of as to why they keep stonewalling on this very basic question, when did he last test negative, which gives us an idea of when he caught the virus, is that the answer is actually worse than the spectacle of the continued stonewalling.

What do you think?

BRIGHT: Jake, that's the same behavior we have seen from this presence since the start of the outbreak.

He has never told us the truth about the risk or the seriousness of this outbreak. He has not told us the truth about his status and when he was infected.

You're right. When you hide the truth, and you're not transparent, you're hiding something much worse. And by hiding that, by lying to the American public, and not telling us the full truth, you're actually prolonging the duration and the impact of this pandemic. You're actually allowing more people to die.

TAPPER: You say it's time for more scientists and more medical professionals such as yourself to lay your careers on the line and push back against how the president is handling this pandemic, as you did.

Explain more what you mean by that and who you're talking about.

BRIGHT: Jake, there are so many career scientists in our government health care system. And these are the best scientists in the world.

I would put the expertise and the experience and the judgment of the scientists we have, the CDC and the FDA and the NIH and at BARDA, all throughout our government, up next to or against anyone on the planet, and our scientists are going to shine.

They are concerned about this White House and this administration overruling the best scientific judgment. They're concerned about the political pressure that has been put on them to change a course of behavior, a course of action, or to rewrite science, or come up with some fake science, and then put it forward as the truth.

[16:20:00]

So, they are very frustrated. I hear from my colleagues across our government, in the health care system especially, who are very frustrated. They're concerned that the truth isn't getting out. They're concerned that the best guidance and practices aren't being heard.

And they're concerned about the lack of leadership, leading by example, and encouraging people to follow those guidelines. So, their frustration is because, by blocking this information, by holding back their best evidence and their best guidance, then it's leading to more infections. It's leading to more hospitalizations.

We have 30,000 people in our country right now in the hospital from COVID-19. More people are going to die because scientists are being pushed back, scientists are not being heard.

And I am trying to speak up and encourage others like me, in our medical field, in our scientific field to speak up, because Americans need to know the truth. The world needs to know the truth.

And if we continue to hide the truth, then we're going to see many more deaths that don't need to occur.

TAPPER: What is the truth that you're talking about that they're being prevented from saying?

BRIGHT: This is a deadly pandemic. This is a deadly virus.

The messaging that President Trump gave to America and the world when he left the hospital about, there is no need to be afraid of this virus, is probably the most reckless and deadly piece of information I have ever heard.

This virus is deadly. It is airborne. And now, finally, the CDC is being allowed by the White House to tell the world it is airborne. It spreads person to person very easily. Look at the hot spot from that Rose Garden ceremony for the Supreme

Court nominee, that one situation? How many people are now infected from that one situation? That's an example for America to see how quickly and easily this virus can spread from person to person.

What they're not seeing is the number of people then that they go on to infect, the number of those people that go into the hospital. And then all we're seeing is some tallies, some numbers.

And the numbers have a way of hiding the true feelings and life and the emotion, the family, the names of the people that are dying from this virus.

The truth is, this is deadly. The truth is, there are things that we can and should be doing to reduce the risk, to slow the spread, to protect our health care workers, to protect each other, and to save lives.

And the White House refuses to tell people the truth about those measures and their impact.

TAPPER: And you also talk about the politicization of this, the pressure on the scientific agencies to -- for instance, when you filed your whistle-blower report, it was about -- earlier this year -- you were objecting to the fact that you were being pushed to act as if hydroxychloroquine was a cure-all, was a reasonable therapeutic, when, in actuality, at the very least, it is not proven to be that way, and, at the very worst, it could actually hurt people.

BRIGHT: It is shameful, what's happening from the White House, from this president and his senior administration officials, in pushing unproven drugs forward as a panacea, as a miracle cure, as a cure-all, as a gift from God, all the ways that they describe these treatments, without any evidence behind them, and pushing them forward, encouraging free, wide access to Americans, in some cases in -- where Americans didn't even need to be diagnosed with COVID-19, knowing that these drugs could cause significant harm, these drugs could cause death, even.

It's reckless for the president and his administration to promote these. They're not scientists. They're not medical professionals. They're not health care professionals. The scientists know the truth, and their voice has been silenced.

That is shameful from this White House.

TAPPER: Stay right there. We're going to come back to you.

I want to ask you about the unproven therapeutics that President Trump is now pushing, and the possible impact that that might have.

That's next. Stay with us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [16:28:53]

TAPPER: This morning, President Trump was celebrating the experimental antibodies he was given at Walter Reed Medical Center on Friday, saying, falsely, that he thinks he's cured from his coronavirus infection.

There is no cure for coronavirus, of course.

We asked the ousted vaccine director Rick Bright, who just resigned from the NIH, about this and why he ultimately decided to leave the Trump administration this week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: I want to talk about why you resigned in a second.

But, first, before you were reassigned to NIH earlier this year, you were involved in developing a coronavirus vaccine, as well as therapeutics to help people battling the illness.

President Trump is calling the Regeneron antibody cocktail that he took at Walter Reed a cure. He says it's a cure.

It's obviously not a cure.

He says he wants to give this drug to every American free of charge.

Is that possible? Is that wise?

BRIGHT: It's too early to know if this drug really works. It's too early to know how safe it is and how effective it is.

It's interesting that Regeneron is the first company that I put an agreement in place with in January at BARDA to rapidly start developing monoclonal antibodies for this coronavirus.

[16:30:07]

It's a proven platform. It's worked for Ebola. They were working on it for influenza and for MERS. It made sense to start it with this coronavirus.