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The Lead with Jake Tapper
Trump Flip-Flops Again on Stimulus Negotiations; Trump Eager to Resume Campaigning. Aired 3-3:30p ET
Aired October 09, 2020 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[15:00:05]
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: And welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.
We begin today with the politics lead, President Trump this afternoon spending nearly two hours, two hours continuing his streak of calling into what we will charitably refer to as friendly media outlets.
Though the COVID infected president has not been seen in-person since he returned to the White House on Monday from Walter Reed Medical Center, the president claimed on "The Rush Limbaugh Show" to not be taking any medications. He said he feels -- quote -- "perfect" after being infected with coronavirus, though the president did admit he continues to battle a cough.
President Trump also said he might not have recovered at all from the virus if not for the experimental antibody therapy that he received, one that only nine other people outside clinical trials in the U.S. have been able to get.
The president is now touting this treatment as a cure, which it is not. It is not a cure.
With a long history of ignorance about science, the president is claiming that people will now get immediately better after being treated with it, though there is not yet the scientific evidence for that.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's a cure. And I'm talking to you today because of it, and because I think I could have been a bad -- I could have been a bad victim.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
TAPPER: Again, it is not a cure. The president has zero medical expertise.
His insistence that he is cured, which he is not, may be rooted in his anxiousness to return to the campaign trail just 25 days out from Election Day. The president's physician, who has already previously admitted to not being fully transparent about the president's condition, says that he anticipates the president can return to public engagements as soon as tomorrow, even though we should note, the specifics of the president's condition still remain unknown to the public, such as, has the president tested negative since being treated?
When did he last test negative? When did the president contract the virus? Is the president still contagious? Basic questions we still do not know, ones that the American people have every right to know, ones that are potentially a matter of life and death for the people the president wants to see on the campaign trail.
Let's get right to CNN White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins.
And, Kaitlan, the White House is promising president will be in a good spot before he's back on the campaign trail.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, but they haven't really defined what exactly that means, Jake. And they haven't said whether a negative test result is a requirement for the president to start holding these public events, which we know they're already moving ahead with planning them.
The president last night expressed his interest to be back on the campaign trail as soon as tomorrow, potentially Sunday as well. Right now, we do not believe they have any travel plans, though we know they could plan something for the president to host something at the White House.
It's still kind of unclear exactly what they're thinking. But people have said that we should be ready for the president to resume his normal schedule as soon as Monday, even though some medical experts have said that might be too soon.
And even his own doctor, just as he was leaving the hospital this past Monday, said it wouldn't be until this coming Monday that he could really breathe a sigh of relief about the president's condition. Yet he hasn't explained why he now feels confident that tomorrow is the day that the president could start interacting with people again, given that he's only been interacting with just a few people inside the West Wing over the last few days.
TAPPER: And, Kaitlan again, today, the White House still refusing to answer these very basic questions about the president's health, such as -- and I don't know why they want to keep extending this -- we're not going to stop asking -- when did the president last test negative for COVID-19?
COLLINS: And they have not really come up with a good excuse for why they're not revealing this. They have only just cited the president's privacy.
But, Jake, that standard doesn't even seem to apply, because, of course, they told us about the president's positive test result. I do anticipate they will tell us about his first negative test result, something he said he was going to take a test today that we haven't heard on that.
They just won't say when his last negative result was or they won't say that he actually did get a negative result the day of that debate with Joe Biden, as was required by the Cleveland Clinic, which hosted that debate and performed medical -- performed coronavirus tests on all of us.
So, Jake, it's just been a lack of information coming from the White House. They have left political aides to try to spin why they're not revealing that information.
And we should remind our viewers we have not heard from the president's doctor in-person face to face taking questions from reporters since Monday. And I have asked the White House repeatedly why they have canceled these briefings, now that the president is no longer in the hospital, but very much still has coronavirus, we believe.
And they have not really explained why they have stopped doing the briefings.
TAPPER: The only logical explanation as to why they're continuing to stonewall, when this is continuing to be a big issue, a damaging story for them, is that the actual answer is even worse, even more potentially damaging.
Kaitlan Collins, thank you so much. We will see you in the next hour as well.
Joining us now to discuss the president's health is Dr. Daniel Varga. He's chief physician executive at Hackensack Meridian Health.
[15:05:02]
Dr. Varga, thanks so much for joining us.
So, Commander Sean Conley, the president's physician, said in a memo that President Trump is clear to return to public engagements tomorrow. He did not indicate what data he used to make that assessment. The president refused to answer the question about whether or not he has tested negative. When Sean Hannity asked him several times, the president just wouldn't answer.
What would you need to know to sign off on the president going back on the campaign trail, or even, frankly, meeting with other people in a room?
DR. DANIEL VARGA, HACKENSACK MERIDIAN HEALTH: Yes, so, there's really two issues you have to take into consideration here, Jake.
The first is the well-being of the patient. So, if the patient's still symptomatic, feeling bad, et cetera, it's not a good idea to resume normal activities. And when we advise, for example, front-line caregivers, we first and foremost look and say, how long has it been since you developed symptoms or since you had a positive test? The CDC's recommendation since mid-July have been you have to have at
least 10 days pass either from the first onset of symptoms or from your first positive test.
But that's a minimum requirement. The second thing we would go to is, how does the patient feel? How do they feel before you say, return and begin normal activities again? Because we know symptomatology for this virus can linger for a long time.
TAPPER: So that would put it at Sunday, if we assume that the president first tested positive Thursday, which is -- we heard that he tested positive 1:00 a.m. Friday morning. So we assume that was Thursday. That would mean Sunday.
That means that Commander Conley is not even recommending the minimum, even though -- and we still don't even know if President Trump has tested negative yet. We assume he has not.
VARGA: Yes, you would still have to really know definitively when the first positive test was. So -- but, yes, I mean, you can do -- everybody can do the math from that.
I think the other piece that's important in this is the -- we would recommend and the CDC recommends for our team members, when they return to work, we don't do a retest. And part of the reason is, is people can have positive COVID tests without symptoms for weeks after they initially test positive.
And we really don't know what that means. We believe that, as -- if they're asymptomatic, otherwise feeling well, et cetera, and they're three or four weeks out from a COVID, initial COVID diagnosis, that they're likely not infective.
But, at the same time, we don't know that for sure. So that's why the current guidance would say, you don't necessarily have to get a negative test before you start resuming normal activity or getting out in the community.
TAPPER: OK, that's important to know.
Dr. Conley also said that, since the president returned home, his illness has not progressed and that he has responded well to treatment. We still don't know if President Trump is still on any sort of drugs or not. The president claims he's not, but the president often says things that aren't true.
It has been nine days since his diagnosis became public -- or, rather, it's been a week since Trump's diagnosis became public. Is that enough time to be sure that his symptoms won't come back?
VARGA: You know, again, you separate the two things. Symptoms can last for a long time.
There are lots of folks out there that we're following who have been low-level sick for weeks to months after their initial diagnosis of COVID. So that's a very individual thing that the doctor has to take into consideration and really be sure that the patient actually is resolving from their initial symptomatology.
The issue of infectivity is where we use that 10-day mark from the initial positive test, assuming the patient has no fever, et cetera.
TAPPER: During his interview, or whatever it was, with Sean Hannity last night, President Trump repeatedly paused and coughed.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think, the first debate, they--
SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Excuse me.
On the first debate, they oscillated the mic.
Well, I want them to vote, but I will say this. Absentee is OK, because absentee ballots -- excuse me -- absentee ballots are fine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: He was asked about this today. He said it's just a -- quote -- "lingering thing."
Sounds to me like he still has symptoms.
VARGA: Yes, I mean, it's hard to know.
I mean, you can have any kind of viral infection and then have persistent cough for weeks and otherwise feel good.
I mean, this is really something that a physician has to pay really close attention to and say, is this just a little bit of a hack that's hanging around after the patient has otherwise fully recovered, or is this really still an active inflammatory process in the lungs that you really don't want to put too much stress on?
[15:10:10]
TAPPER: If somebody came to you, based on what and what you don't know -- and let's be frank here. The White House has been opaque about the president's illness. They have lied about it. They have refused to answer questions about it. There's basic medical information we do not know.
If somebody came to you and said, sir, I'm a Navy aviator, and I'm supposed to fly Marine One and take President Trump to Pennsylvania, do you -- is that OK for me to do?
Or somebody said to you, I want to go to that rally in Pennsylvania, it's indoor -- it's an indoor rally -- what would you tell either one of them?
VARGA: Well, I would tell you right now, if -- so let's take somebody who's going to come back and take care of patients in a hospital.
If -- it doesn't matter if it's 10 days, 14 days, 21 days. If those folks are still symptomatic, we're not bringing them back to work at all. I mean, when -- if they tell us that they're symptomatic, if their physician is advising against it, then we keep those folks out of work until they're symptom-free, just simply because we know, with this illness, that symptoms can persist for a long time.
And there can be distant complications from COVID that you really want to keep an eye on and you really want to avoid, if you can.
TAPPER: Dr. Daniel Varga, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time and your expertise.
President Trump just changed his mind again on a coronavirus stimulus deal, this while thousands of Americans continue to struggle to keep a roof over their heads and food on their table. What's his latest position? What does that mean for you?
Plus, why the foiled plot to kidnap Michigan's governor is causing concern about what could happen at the polls on Election Day.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:16:09]
TAPPER: In our politics lead today: President Trump has again completely reversed course, this time on the stimulus. He says he is once again willing to negotiate with Democrats on a big coronavirus relief deal.
Not only that, but the president is claiming that he wants an even bigger relief package than either Democrats or Republicans have proposed, which is the exact opposite of what he said a few days ago.
CNN's Manu Raju is live on Capitol Hill for us.
Manu, give us a reality check here. It seemed as though one of the issues for Republicans was that Democrats wanted to spend too much. Now President Trump is saying he wants to spend even more than Democrats?
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the president has been all over the map on this issue, Jake.
Just three days ago, he pulled the plug, said he wanted to punt on the issue of these stimulus talks until after the election. That sent Wall Street panicking. But Republican leaders, including Mitch McConnell, told me he's agreed with the president's approach.
Now, afterwards, after the backlash that president received, now he's back at the negotiating table. And, today, his Treasury secretary proposed $1.8 trillion in a package, moving much closer to Nancy Pelosi is $2.2 trillion.
But, Jake, that is far more than what Senate Republicans are willing to spend. They have gotten behind a $500 billion plan. And when they talked about going up to $1 trillion back in late July, the party was badly divided over it.
Now, despite all of those concerns on the Republican side, the president told Rush Limbaugh earlier today that he was willing to spend even more than the Democrats.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
TRUMP: I would like to see a bigger stimulus package, frankly, than either the Democrats or the Republicans are offering. I'm going in the exact opposite now, OK?
I mean, I'm telling you this. I'm telling you something I don't tell anybody else, because maybe it helps or maybe it hurts negotiations.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
RAJU: Republicans think it hurts negotiations, because Nancy Pelosi wants the administration to spend more money.
And, as she's been holding out, Republicans have been -- the administration is moving closer and closer to her position. But, Jake, despite the close -- moving closer on the overall number, there are so many details they still have to iron out.
And Mitch McConnell said in Kentucky today it was unlikely any deal will come together before the election.
TAPPER: I mean, this is erratic, even for President Trump, who is an erratic leader.
Speaker Pelosi, Manu, also publicly backed a push today that would give Congress a role in removing presidents from office. The 25th Amendment is -- the Cabinet and the vice president have to go along with it. This would allow lawmakers.
Such a bill, though, would clearly be dead on arrival in Mitch McConnell's Senate. So this is just a stunt, I presume?
RAJU: Yes, Republicans certainly see it that way. It has no chance of passing. Pelosi even herself indicated is not something that's going to come up for a vote this year. It's going to be -- probably wait until next year.
But Democrats want to spotlight their concerns over the president's condition. They are pointing to language in the Constitution that allows a body established by Congress and the vice president to declare a president unable to serve and discharge his duties.
And, in that case, the vice president would become the acting president. So, this legislation would essentially establish that body that is allowed for in the Constitution, but, again, Jake, as you mentioned, no chance of becoming law, but Pelosi, of course, getting behind this now, amid concerns about the president's condition.
TAPPER: Yes, Manu Raju, thank you so much.
Joining us to discuss, CNN's Gloria Borger, "The Washington Post"'s Philip Bump.
Gloria, President Trump all over the map on the relief bill. Now he's back in them. He even says he wants to spend even more than Democrats do. He bounced back out of next week's debate because it was supposed to be held remotely for the candidates. Now he's calling for it to be reinstated.
I don't know if it's the medication. The president has, of course, always been erratic. But he really -- I have to say, to put it nicely, he seems concerned about being reelected.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, let's just say that.
[15:20:00]
Look, it might not be the medication, but it certainly is desperation, Jake. This is a president who is flailing. He can read the polls. He is stuck at the White House. He sees that Joe Biden, ironically, is the one out on the campaign trail, and he's not at this point.
So I think you have a president who has no clear message, beyond hurling insults, and he's full of grievance. But if you ask him what he wants to do for the next four years, you don't get any kind of a clear message out of him.
So -- and I -- maybe we shouldn't expect it. But this is a president who every day does something, and then undoes it. So it's not whether you can believe the president anymore, but it's when you can believe the president. Do you believe him last Tuesday, when he pulled the plug on stimulus, or do you believe him today, when he wants a large stimulus? Who knows?
TAPPER: And, Phil, what do you make of Speaker Pelosi publicly backing this effort to get legislators involved in removing a president from office, if he cannot faithfully discharge the duties of his office, what the 25th Amendment leaves up to the Cabinet and the vice president?
Why -- I mean, there's no chance this is going to become law. There's no chance Mitch McConnell will even have a vote on it. Why do this?
PHILIP BUMP, "THE WASHINGTON POST": I mean, it seems like the obvious reason here is to try and have a conversation about whether or not President Trump is fit for his position, right?
I mean, obviously, this is something that Democrats have been arguing, basically, since President Trump was elected, that there was some question about his fitness for the office. They're trying to highlight that.
I mean, it's pretty clearly -- Donald Trump is not going to sign into law something which establishes a commission which could potentially throw him out of office, even if it were to move quickly.
So, yes, I mean, it just seems -- it seems like a stunt. But, to be fair, we're talking about it, so I guess, to some extent, it worked.
TAPPER: And we should note, Gloria, there is a Marine standing outside the Oval Office right now, which is another -- and he's wearing a mask -- good for him -- which is a symbol of the fact that either the president is in the Oval Office, or they're expecting him there any moment.
The fact is, the president, as far as we know, is still contagious.
BORGER: Yes.
TAPPER: And 25 days until the election, these are just constant reminders of the fact that the president has been reckless, to the degree that he himself has contracted the coronavirus.
And he almost seemed to be suggesting in his interviews with Hannity and Limbaugh that maybe he even was close to death, that it was very, very serious.
BORGER: Yes.
And now, of course, Jake, he wants to go back out on the campaign trail. The question is -- and we don't know anything much about his condition -- is he going to take another test? Has he tested negative? He couldn't answer that on his interview with Hannity.
So, we don't -- we don't really know anything about what's going to happen in the future. And I might add that, every time he's in the Oval Office, people have to get dressed up in gowns and goggles to go in and see him.
And yet he still insists that, for some reason, he can't do his work in his upstairs office, but he has to do his work in the Oval Office. And there are people working around him who are putting themselves at great risk. They're choosing to do so. But, for some reason, he insists that he needs to show the American public he's, what, Superman? I don't know.
TAPPER: And, Philip, I should note, on the president's favorite channel just a few minutes ago, Secretary of State Pompeo was asked about Donald Trump's desire that he release more Hillary Clinton e- mails.
I can't believe I'm even saying this.
BORGER: Yes.
TAPPER: And Pompeo said that they were working as fast as they can. And then FOX said, before the election? And Pompeo said, yes, before the election, we're trying to make that happen.
I mean, what?
BORGER: Right.
BUMP: That's the key question.
And it's -- the thing that's really baffling about this is, people may remember, not only did we spend a lot of time talking about Hillary Clinton's e-mails when Hillary Clinton was on the ballot, but we talked about the e-mails the State Department had, which were released in tranches over the course of the year, year-and-a-half prior to the election.
We have already seen the vast majority. I don't even know there are any that we haven't seen. We have already seen so many of these e- mails. There was nothing interesting in them. And they have absolutely zero pertinence right now to this election, beyond that it gives Donald Trump a chance to talk about something which he equates to Democrats are bad.
That's fundamentally what this is all about. He wants talk about Hillary Clinton, because people don't like Hillary Clinton. People like Joe Biden better than Hillary Clinton. So he'd much rather be speaking about Hillary Clinton.
But to relitigate this now is just absolutely baffling. And it's -- there's -- I hate to go out on a limb. After 2016, I try not to make hard and fast predictions. This is not going to change the election.
It's not going to -- there's no chance that's going to happen. I don't understand why he's doing it.
TAPPER: And, Gloria, I mean, I have to say, at some point, people like Mike Pompeo, who has presidential aspirations of his own, need to start thinking about how much they're going to continue to enable this bizarre behavior.
BORGER: Right.
[15:25:00]
Well, Mike Pompeo got criticized by the president publicly the other night. So, clearly, he took it to heart, because he can't do that. And he wants to be -- he wants to run for president, I presume.
So he wants to keep Donald Trump's base. I mean, somebody needs to remind Donald Trump, and perhaps Mike Pompeo, that this is 2020, and not 2016. And if Mike Pompeo desires to be president at some point, perhaps he ought to start saying, you know what, I have to establish my own base and not count on Donald Trump's base, because maybe they are there for just him.
TAPPER: Gloria Borger, Philip Bump, thanks to both of you. Appreciate it.
President Trump says that he is getting lawyers lined up. Why?
Stick around.
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