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The Lead with Jake Tapper

13 Charged in Domestic Terror Plot to Kidnap Michigan Governor; COVID Cases Rising Across All Regions in the Country. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired October 09, 2020 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:30:02]

SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: She also talked about the president lambasting her for how she's handled the coronavirus, and he did it again.

His response to her saying that was that she's done a terrible job, that she locked down her state for everyone, and then failed to thank what he said his Justice Department and his federal law enforcement officers for foiling this plot and he says -- you know, he's always stood against white supremacy.

So, you have a strong political become be forth going between the president and the woman named as a potential victim in this plot -- Jake.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: All right. Sara Sidner, thank you so much.

The FBI Director Christopher Wray has been warning that violent far right extreme itch is the top domestic threat to the United States. The Department of Homeland Security just released its threat assessment report which showed 2019 was the most deadly year for extremism in the United States since the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995.

Joining us now to talk about all this is former federal prosecutor, Laura Coates, and the former of communication for U.S. National Intelligence during the Obama years, Shawn Turner.

How much worse do you think things are going to get with this far- right violence?

SHAWN TURNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Jake, I think there's pretty good evidence to suggest that this is going to get a loss worse before it gets better. I think that we are seeing a resurgence in a militia movement in this country, and there are some pretty clear indicator of that. As we watch these groups we're seeing that militia groups are showing up at peaceful protests around the country in numbers unlike anything we have seen before.

In every state we're seeing that he has groups show up. They're heavily armed and standing side by side, often times with law enforcement and sometimes they're impersonating law enforcement in order to get things done. We're also seeing an increasing sophistication in the way that they're communicating. It's really startling to see that I'm seeing some of the very types of tactics we saw with foreign terrorist organizations in the way these organizations here in the United States are trying to conceal their communication.

The other really significant indicator is that they're recruiting is unlike in the past -- it's open, it's out there, it's blatant. And so, these groups are growing significantly in every state the across the country.

So from my perspective there's pretty clear indicators this is the kind of thing that's going to touch every state across the country and something that every governor ought to be concern about.

TAPPER: Well, what you just said is what the attorney general in Michigan said. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANA NESSEL (D), MICHIGAN ATTORNEY GENERAL: What we're seeing here in Michigan right now, it's not just a Michigan problem. It's an American problem. And I think there's going to be more incidences to come.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Laura, if you were advising governors, what would you tell them?

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, first of all, I mean, it's so terrifying to think this is probably the tip of the iceberg as Sean and the attorney general of Michigan has noted about this very issue. But, of course, this all goes back to the leadership from the top.

And if people are increasingly becoming empowered and emboldens with winks and a nod or not even as subtle as that, by feeling somehow that are validate or justified in their conduct by perhaps the president of the United States, through his commentary or any other leader, well, then the governors have to individually make sure that they are able to harness this issue to contain it by ensuring their laws and that their -- the consequences for actions like this are carried out through prosecutions like what we're seeing in Michigan. There will be no safe harbor for terrorism within the United States of America, within the boundaries within individual states.

If they are confident in their prosecutions and their investigations and the deterrent aspect of justice may be able to curb what has become an explosion of this rhetoric, because deterrence is one of the key ways you're able to stop behavior, not just by the threat of a law existing, by actually prosecuting those who even develop plans, let alone carry them out.

TAPPER: Shawn, you heard the governor of Michigan blaming the president in part for this planned attack.

We should note, there is no evidence we have seen at all that members of this group were specifically motivated by Trump. He did tweet out back in April to liberate Michigan, and obviously who he has gone back and forth white supremacist groups or far right groups should be specifically condemned. One day, he'll do it, the next day, he will refuse to do so.

What do you make of all this? There's this thing called stochastic terrorism, I think that's the term for it, where the idea where you -- you know, you create an environment through your words that encourages people to take the law into their own hands and act violently. Do you think that that is a factor here or could be?

TURNER: Well, it certainly could be, Jake. Look, we -- it's legitimate to ask ourselves, what has changed over the past several years that have caused these groups to come out of the woodwork.

[16:35:00]

Look, it's always been the case these groups existed and at any given time they were more active in some states than others. But over the past several years, we have seen these groups activate across the country. And so, we have to ask ourselves, what's happening that's causing that?

I think the answer is pretty clear. These groups have been led to believe that they no longer have to exist in the shadows. In fact, I'd go even further to say that a lot of these groups believe that that they have a mandate to rise up and to take their political dispute to the streets. That mandate they believe they have is oftentimes because of the political rhetoric that we see in this country, it's oftentimes because of what the president says.

When we look at these groups at protests all across the country, these militia groups are there, and so often, what are they carrying with them? Not just their guns, not just their AR-15s, that just the military, but they're often carrying signs that support the president. Okay?

So I think it's pretty clear that the president's rhetoric is having a significant impact on this.

TAPPER: And, Laura, the big concern right -- right now is that if President Trump loses, and who knows what's going to happen, it's up to the voters, but if he does lose, that he incites some of these groups, and who knows what happens?

COATES: Well, first, I want to be very clear that we don't have, as you mentioned, Jake, the direct correlation between the actions between these individuals in Michigan who are acting specifically at the expressed mandate or behest of the president. And, you know, normally, in the law, the more context the prosecutor has to provide in order to create a causal link, the less likely they're going to be able to determine a causal link for the benefit of the jury, let alone the court of public opinion.

Having said that, you're absolutely right about the idea of what the president has said in his rhetoric and amount the numerous calls to action that he has had or even what people would like to hear. If he's well aware that his words could be interpreted in the way that would incite violence, that would incite criminal behavior, then he should be more cautious.

But there's a track record here. This summer, remember, with George Floyd's killing, he said, the -- you know, when the looting starts, the shooting starts. There hasn't been a causal connection to people making that statement with any crimes have been committed.

And, of course, he knows -- he's already successful in a case by those who said that he incited violence against them in Louisville. So he has a difficult track record, yet, we can't always prove it in the law.

TAPPER: Laura Coates, Shawn Turner, thanks to both of you. Appreciate it.

Coronavirus just reached a mark in the United States that has not happened in two months. It's not a good mark. We'll tell you what it is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:41:57]

TAPPER: Back now with our national lead. The coronavirus cases are rising across every region in the country.

Just yesterday, the nation reported more than 56,000 more new infections, the most new cases added on a single day in months. Today, a majority of states are seeing cases trending up.

And as CNN's Nick Watt reports, some states are also seeing record high hospitalizations.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A new outbreak at a nursing home here in California. Nine dead.

CATHERINE BOBEDA, DAUGHTER OF NURSING HOME RESIDENT: I'm trying to prepare myself that I'm never going to see my mom in person again.

WATT: In New Jersey, average new case counts are up over 60 percent these past two weeks.

New Mexico's governor is worried.

GOVERNOR MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM (D), NEW MEXICO: We're in a pretty difficult spot in the state of New Mexico right now. We are at extreme risk of uncontrollable spread.

WATT: Fifty-six thousand one hundred ninety-one new coronavirus cases reported in the U.S. Thursday, the most in nearly two months.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is really something we need to pay attention to.

WATT: These ten states have more COVID-19 patients in the hospital now than ever before.

These three states -- Kansas, South Dakota, Tennessee, just logged their most COVID-19 deaths in a single day.

Over the course of this pandemic, we've seen hot spots, spikes, rolling waves.

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The state of Florida --

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Arizona is at a real crossroads.

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The hospitalization rate in California --

WATT: Up one place, down in another. But right now, every region in this country is on the rise.

New York saw hell in the spring, now seeing spikes. Some centered on religious communities.

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D), NEW YORK: They are not following the rules. We know what happens when they don't follow the rules. The infection rate goes up.

WATT: Broadway now shuttered until at least the end of May, went dark mid-March, will stay dark for more than a year due to the virus.

The NFL now juggling its schedule, reacting to outbreaks. Patriots/Broncos now moved from Sunday to Monday. Titans/Bills will now play Tuesday.

Meanwhile, the president, fresh from a dose of Regeneron's experimental treatment says Regeneron and Eli Lilly will get FDA emergency use authorization to roll out their antibody therapies.

But hold on: Promising results among small number of patients to approaches that include antibody therapies are not a substitute for the rigorous scientific review that is essential, says a group of prominent medical societies in a plea to the FDA.

That's where we are -- medical professionals clubbing together to implore a government agency to ignore the president.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WATT: And today, our planet set an unwanted record -- more than 350,000 COVID-19 infections reported worldwide. So, here's where we are -- a virus that we didn't even know existed a year ago has now infected more than 36 million people across our globe.

[16:45:03]

And, Jake, a ridiculously disproportionate number of those infections are right here in the United States -- Jake. TAPPER: Including among the president of the United States, who is resuming campaign activity, whether or not he's infectious and contagious.

Nick Watt, thanks so much.

Joining us now, the director at the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota, Michael Osterholm.

Michael, thanks so much for joining us.

DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH: Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: So, the U.S. reported the most new daily cases in nearly two months on Thursday. Cases have surged by 12 percent since just last week.

Why is this surge happening? What do we need to be doing in the United States that we are obviously not doing?

OSTERHOLM: Well, actually, the surge was predictable. We actually talked about it more than a month ago.

It starts out, first of all, with college students coming back to universities and colleges. And we're seeing substantial transmission there, which then is spilling over into the older adult population, those with underlying health problems.

Then we see people who basically have come to their end of pandemic fatigue and holding things up, and they're just going to go do what they want to do. And that's what's happening.

Then we see pandemic anger, about a third of the population that doesn't believe this pandemic is real. They think it's a hoax. And so they're going to do whatever they want to do.

If you look right now at funerals, weddings, family reunions, athletic events, bars and restaurants, we're at an all-time high for transmission. And this is going to get a lot worse before it even considers leveling off.

TAPPER: In the Northeast, the average of new cases is up a staggering 91 percent since one month ago.

Do you anticipate a full-blown second wave of cases, or has the first wave not even ended?

OSTERHOLM: Well, as you and I have talked before, I'm not really convinced these are waves. This is like a forest fire, where, if you suppress it and hold it down, you may have embers left, but you don't have a big forest fire.

And what has happened is, every time we have these increased number of cases we saw in April, we saw again in July, some areas do lock down a bit, slow transmission down, but then give up after several months of that and they come right back.

That's what's happening right now around much of the country. New York is an example where they did an incredible job for 14 weeks keeping case numbers down. Finally, members of certain communities in New York City decided they were tired of the -- what they needed to do. And, lo, we have cases.

I think we have so many people right now that have given up on this pandemic long before the virus ever gave up on us. We're just going to continue to see this ever increasing number of cases out there. It'll far surpass what we saw in July, when we were at our worst of the pandemic to date.

TAPPER: We just learned that President Trump is holding an event at the White House tomorrow on the South Lawn.

The White House has yet to announce that he's tested negative for coronavirus. He's expected to address attendees from a balcony.

Would you go to that event, if invited?

OSTERHOLM: Well, I wouldn't go right now, because I think the White House itself is -- has a fair number of infections.

TAPPER: It's a hot zone.

OSTERHOLM: I mean, if he's up on the balcony, and he's not near the people, then he doesn't really pose any risk.

But I think the issue is, again, the White House has not really gotten its act together in terms of the prevention program that they need to have. I said three months ago that what they had done, to use these rapid tests to protect the president, was akin to giving squirt guns to the Secret Service and telling them to protect the president against an assassin.

The program was absolutely illogical and terribly inadequate. So, unless they have changed that, I don't see any reason why one can assume that there's going to be less transmission at the White House now than there was a several weeks ago.

TAPPER: So that's good news on that, but -- in terms that the president won't necessarily pose a harm, although the White House itself is a potential hot zone.

OSTERHOLM: Yes.

TAPPER: But the Trump campaign just announced that President Trump will be participating in a rally in Sanford, Florida, on Monday.

What would you tell somebody who said to you, is it OK for me to go to that event? Forget the question about whether or not President Trump is contagious or infectious, which we still do not know, among so many things we don't know about his condition.

I mean, the president -- we're still in the middle of this pandemic, and he's holding a rally.

OSTERHOLM: Right. What more can be said? I mean, just the very nature of asking the question states the obvious.

I think the challenge we have is helping the American people understand, if you bring people together, even when they're outdoors, it's less risk of transmission being close together outdoors, but it's surely not zero.

When you bring people together when it's indoors, it's almost guaranteed today, with the level of virus out there, to pose a significant risk.

[16:50:00]

So, I mean, right now -- I have been saying this for several weeks. Any politician, I don't care what party you are, you need to be mindful of your own safety and that of your staff, let alone the people who you're bringing together.

And so this is, between now and the time of the election, the worst possible time to be bringing people together in crowds.

TAPPER: And Florida, just in the last day, reported 2,900 new infections just in that one state.

OSTERHOLM: Well, Florida is ripe for another large outbreak.

What they have done is opened up everything, as if nothing had ever happened there. And you and I could be talking probably in eight to 10 weeks, and I will likely bet that Florida will be a house on fire.

This is what's so sad about this. We know these things are going to happen. It's not like you can escape this virus. I find it just illogical that people think, just because they get done with the virus, the virus is done with them. It's not.

And so watch Florida, eight to 10 weeks, and you and I will both be saying, why did they let this happen?

TAPPER: We have been saying this since -- I mean, since we have been having these conversations in...

OSTERHOLM: We have.

TAPPER: Starting February or March.

You have constantly been predicting what would happen, based on the behavior of the president and the governors who have been listening to him, and the behavior of the American people that are refusing to acknowledge the reality. It happens.

And we say, it's not only predictable; it was literally predicted.

OSTERHOLM: And not only that, Jake, but we're now creating pseudoscience that makes it worse. The state of North Dakota -- right now, North Dakota and South Dakota are the two worst states in the entire country. And the state has just decided that, if each person has a mask on, the other person doesn't have to quarantine if the one person becomes infected.

Mask -- everyone should mask. But to say that that is what you should do with quarantine, there are no data to support that whatsoever. How, when your house is on fire more than anyone else's in the whole country, can you do that? It was a political decision. It had no science.

We need to let science drive the day right now. And it's not.

TAPPER: Michael, I will just say, as I bid you farewell for the weekend, I wish that at one point you had been wrong in any of the things that you have projected and predicted. But you have been right the whole time, and it just must be maddening.

OSTERHOLM: Well, and you know what scares me, Jake, is, it's going to get a lot worse.

I will put it right here out right now. You can go and come back to this a couple weeks from now. It's going to get much worse.

TAPPER: Yes.

Michael Osterholm, thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it.

OSTERHOLM: Thanks, Jake. Bye.

TAPPER: Not once, not twice. Louisiana residents are bracing for a fourth hurricane, a fourth hurricane, to make landfall. We're going to go live to the Gulf Coast next.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:57:21]

TAPPER: Breaking news in the national league.

You're listening to the howling sounds of Hurricane Delta nearing landfall along the Gulf Coast, shattering records as it does. A good portion of this hurricane is already over land. Parts of Texas and Louisiana had been feeling intense winds and rain for hours now.

Delta will be the 10th named storm to hit the U.S. That's the most effort in one year. Four of those named storms hit Louisiana.

Let's go to meteorologist Tom Sater in CNN's Severe Weather Center.

Tom, Hurricane Delta has been hitting the Gulf Coast for hours now and has not even made landfall yet. How long will Delta be a problem? And will the impact of Hurricane Laura in August affect what we see from Hurricane Delta?

TOM SATER, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Well, I will tell you what; 30,000 houses were destroyed six weeks ago yesterday with Laura. Another 35,000 were damaged.

I mean, power still out, and so rebuilding the power grid. And we already have reports of 50,000 without power. Some, Jake, just got their power back on last week.

The storm system has lost strength. It's now a Category 2. That was forecast to happen. However, it is much broader in its wind field. Hurricane winds extend outward from the center a good 50 miles, tropical-storm-force winds around 160. So it's a Category 2 strength.

Landfall -- it's only 35 miles off the coast, just south of Cameron, so, between 7:00 and 8:00. Flooding surge, we're already seeing over six-foot storm surge. Seven to 11 feet is possible.

Houston, you have got tropical-storm-force gusts at 40. New Orleans also has tropical-storm-force winds. But, again, the pattern of rain is dying down somewhat.

But you can see where the center is here, Jake. And, again, we're just a little way away from landfall, only within 10 miles of where we had, of course, the landfall of Laura. But it's to the east of this section that is the big concern, where we're having that storm surge already affect so many areas that were destroyed.

So, with that, the winds, there are thousands of homes that have blue tarps, and they are not going to be able to survive these hurricane winds that will move out of the region by tomorrow morning.

TAPPER: All right, Tom, thanks so much.

Finally, today, we'd like to take a moment to remember one of the lives cut short by coronavirus. More than 213,000 have died in the United States from coronavirus.

Chad Dorrill was 19 years old, 19. He was an avid basketball player. He made the all-conference team in high school. He was a sophomore at Appalachian State studying to become a physical therapist. Dorrill started feeling sick in early September, and he passed away on September 28.

His classmates say his death is a reminder that young people are not invincible to this horrific virus.

May his memory be a blessing. Our deepest condolences to his family.

Tune in to CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION" this Sunday morning. My guests include White House Director of the National Economic Council Larry Kudlow, Joe Biden's deputy campaign manager, Kate Bedingfield, and Democratic Senator from Hawaii Mazie Hirono. You can see it at 9:00 a.m., noon Eastern on Sunday.

Our coverage on CNN continues right now. I will see you Sunday morning.

[17:00:00]