Return to Transcripts main page

The Lead with Jake Tapper

Another Vaccine Trial Halted; Coronavirus Pandemic Escalating. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired October 13, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: And welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We begin the second hour with the 2020 lead. The U.S. is approaching eight million coronavirus cases, and the numbers are just getting worse three weeks out from Election Day.

But President Trump is on a frenzied campaign offensive, planning to hold packed hour-long rallies across the country, no masks required, no social distancing, in flagrant violation of what his own health experts say he should be doing during a pandemic.

Dr. Anthony Fauci told me yesterday that these Trump rallies are asking for trouble and the exact opposite of what should be done, as the infection rate in this country spikes again.

Today, President Trump heads to Johnstown, Pennsylvania, for one of these reckless rallies, Tomorrow, he will be in Des Moines, Iowa, for another potential super-spreader event, then, later this week, North Carolina, Florida once again, and Georgia, five states he won handily in 2016.

Last night, he told a largely maskless crowd that he feels so powerful he beat the virus, he could kiss everyone in the audience. Today, the president tweeted more than 50 times before 8:00 a.m., mocking coronavirus best practices, attacking Joe Biden, attacking the nation's top infectious disease expert, Dr. Fauci.

There is not just a health risk, but a political risk to the president in all this. He has been, frankly, hemorrhaging seniors and women voters in polls. And many seniors and women voters, frankly, disapprove of his handling of the pandemic.

Flaunting that recklessness, bringing it into battleground states could be perceived as unwise by these voters, to say nothing of the morality of it.

And, as CNN's Jeremy Diamond reports for us now, President Trump is showing no signs of slowing down.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Trump back on the road later tonight, kicking off a three-week sprint to Election Day in battleground Pennsylvania, which could be the tipping point in the presidential race.

It's his sixth visit to the state since last month, and a campaign source telling CNN the president plans to campaign here more than in any other swing state before Election Day. After the rally here tonight, Trump will head to Iowa, North Carolina, Florida, and Georgia, all states he won in 2016, but where he's now trailing or neck and neck with former Vice President Joe Biden.

As Trump rushes to revive his campaign, he's also flailing on Twitter, claiming Republicans will provide low-cost health care and always protect people with preexisting conditions, even though he still hasn't unveiled a plan to do that.

And he is seizing on small-scale postal crimes to falsely claim the 2020 election will be rigged. Fresh off his coronavirus recovery...

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Now they say I'm immune.

DIAMOND: ... Trump is back to spreading misinformation about the pandemic, claiming he is immune, despite cases of people getting reinfected.

TRUMP: I feel so powerful. I'll walk into that audience. I'll walk in there, I will kiss everyone in that audience.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

DIAMOND: And mocking social distancing measures at Biden campaign events.

TRUMP: Thirty people show up, they put them in those crazy circles, right?

DIAMOND: After Dr. Anthony Fauci gave this warning on THE LEAD about Trump's packed, mostly maskless rallies...

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NIAID DIRECTOR: We know that that is asking for trouble, when you do that.

DIAMOND: ... Trump lashing out, tweeting, "Tony's pitching arm is far more accurate than his prognostications," referring to Fauci his first pitch at a Washington Nationals game and his initial recommendation that masks were unnecessary and could cause shortages for health care workers.

But Fauci and the CDC have been imploring Americans to wear masks and practice social distancing since April.

FAUCI: We should be doubling down in implementing the public health measures that we have been talking about for so long, which are keeping a distance, no crowds, wearing masks, washing hands, doing things outside.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DIAMOND: And, Jake, as cases are rising in the United States, President Trump is continuing to engage in the same reckless behavior on the campaign trail.

He has vowed to campaign every single day in the next three weeks until Election Day, gathering thousands of people packed tightly together, and very few of them wearing masks -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Jeremy Diamond, thank you so much.

Joining me now to discuss, Dr. Peter Hotez. He's the co-director of the Center for Vaccine Development at Texas Children's Hospital.

Doctor, Anthony Fauci told me yesterday that holding these massive campaign rallies, no masks, no distancing, is -- quote -- "asking for trouble."

And yet the Trump campaign says the president's going to do at least one or two or three events per day over the next few weeks. We know for a fact that previous rallies, Trump rallies, in Tulsa, in Minnesota, because of contact tracing, have directly led to infections, perhaps even, perhaps even death.

How worried are you about the president's plans to hold these rallies, multiple rallies, across the country?

[16:05:00]

DR. PETER HOTEZ, BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE: You know, Jake, this is even -- this is even beyond asking for trouble. This is very self- destructive and actual destructive behavior in terms of what they're doing.

TAPPER: The Trump campaign says that attendees are given temperature checks and access to hand sanitizer. Masks are available, although they're not required.

If these events are going to keep happening, what measures would you like to see that would make you more comfortable that they don't serve as super-spreader events, as Fauci referred to that White House Supreme Court event a few weeks ago?

HOTEZ: Well, ideally, you don't hold in-person events at this point.

Remember, Jake, the numbers are going up. And they're going up pretty precipitously. We were just at 35,000 new cases a day a few weeks ago. Now we're over 50,000. And we're seeing this really serious rise in the Northern Midwest states, up in Wisconsin and the Dakotas, really across the North, into Montana.

And it's just a matter of time before we now see this terrible fall and winter surge. And this is going to be a horrible winter, Jake. We may see numbers that dwarf what we saw in March and April or during the summer, and I think we probably will.

And we're also going to see a rise of mortality. This is going to be one of the most troubling times in our modern history in terms of the public being frightened, homeland security being affected, people worried about going outside, as the deaths mount.

And yet the president seems oblivious to it, as -- and the White House campaign seems oblivious to it. It's as though they have no understanding of what's in store for the American people beginning in November and December and January, where we could be reaching 400,000 deaths in the week after the inauguration, no matter who wins.

I mean, we're talking about a doubling now of cases during this lame- duck period, if that's what it turns out to be -- I'm sorry -- doubling of deaths.

TAPPER: And, Dr. Hotez, I know you're in Texas, where the rate of infection is going up, the rate of hospitalization is going up.

What's going on? Like, why -- let's keep it specific to Texas. Why is the virus continuing to thrive in Texas?

HOTEZ: Well, I think Texas is actually, in some ways, doing a little better now, in part because people are outdoors now. The weather's getting somewhat nicer.

Where we're seeing the really steepest rise are up in the Northern states, where I think what -- there are two things happening, Jake. People are indoors more, and, therefore, in the colder nights, and, therefore, people are coming into contact.

But the other thing that's happens is, in that cold weather, in that cold, dry weather, the virus survives better. It's one of the reasons why it appears to be likely to be a winter virus, as are many of the coronaviruses.

And there's another piece to this, Jake. And that is, with that increased amount of virus, the dose of virus you're getting is higher. If you remember, back in March and April in New York, the mortality rate was sky-high. And, initially, I thought, many of us thought that was because we were learning how to take care of patients in the ICU, we weren't putting patients on dexamethasone and anticoagulants, and we learned from that experience.

TAPPER: Right.

HOTEZ: But there's another piece to this now. There's a couple of papers out showing that, in the cold weather, the dose of virus is higher, and people are getting exposed to greater amount of virus, and, therefore dying because of that.

So, not only do we anticipate a fall and winter rise the number of cases. I'm worried about the deaths significantly going up. And this is -- this is really keeping me up at night.

TAPPER: The president's doctor said that President Trump tested negative for COVID on consecutive days. I think it was that less reliable test, the instant test, not the other one.

But, just as a general principle, is it safe or responsible for a 74- year-old man who just days ago had a fever and needed supplemental oxygen because of coronavirus to be on such an aggressive travel schedule? I mean, if you were his doctor, would you be saying, you're fine, you're out of the woods, go do what you want to do?

HOTEZ: No, absolutely not.

Remember, he was having a pretty rapidly deteriorating course in terms of fever, low oxygen levels. We never really got a full story out of the White House physician team, but it looked like he was starting to deteriorate, and then maybe that the Regeneron monoclonal antibody that he got really made a big difference.

[16:10:03]

But he -- if you remember, he was -- he was visibly short of breath standing on the balcony there. And this is not somebody you want out and about on the campaign trail.

And then there was a lot of worry whether he was actually still transmitting the virus. And, remember, there's no margin for error here, because the president is interacting with so many people, and people -- and he's surrounded by people are.

As he says, he wants to now start kissing them. You want to make damn sure that he has absolutely no -- shedding no virus in his system. And there's a lot of confusion around that. Even though the CDC guidelines say after 10 days you don't necessarily have to be tested, if you look at the origins of those guidelines and how the World Health Organization describes it, if you are in an area where there's a lot of high risk to people that are surrounding you, you still want to show two negative PCR tests 24 hours apart.

And I'm not certain that we have fully got that either.

TAPPER: And, just for the record -- we talked about President Trump testing negative -- we still don't know when he last tested negative before he contracted the virus, which is something that people who came in contact had every right to know, voters in Ohio, voters in Minnesota, voters in New Jersey, Gold Star families, journalists and others.

Dr. Peter Hotez, thank you so much for your time today.

HOTEZ: Thank you.

TAPPER: Some hospitals are overflowing with sick coronavirus patients again, as health experts, such as Hotez just now, warn that winter is coming, and we are nowhere near ready, while another giant drugmaker hits the brakes on the search for a vaccine.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:15:56]

TAPPER: In our national lead, you can call it a second wave, you can call it a fall surge, coronavirus infections and hospitalizations are getting worse in every single region of the United States. The nation is nearing 8 million cases and more than 215,000 deaths.

Montana has reported as many cases in the last 11 days as it did in the first five months with the pandemic. For a third consecutive day, hospitalizations in North Dakota are shattering state records. And in just the last 24 hours, both Iowa and Oklahoma passed 100,000 infections in their states.

Deaths in the U.S. are averaging around 700 a day, 700. Just imagine if terrorists or a poisoned vat of a soda were killing 700 Americans a day. It's tough to discern, tough to imagine.

But it's a figure far too many American leaders have seemed to have accepted. As the cases get worse, unexpected illness has forced Johnson & Johnson to pause all of its vaccines trial -- as CNN's Erica Hill now reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ERICA HILL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): More than seven months into this pandemic, the U.S. is sliding backwards.

DR. PETER HOTEZ, PROFESSOR AND DEAN OF TROPICAL MEDICINE, BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE: This is going to be a very tough winter. We may see a rise in new cases that exceeds what we saw back in March and April.

HILL: Thirty-three states now seeing new cases rise over the past week. Nearly half of those also posting their highest seven-day averages for new cases since the pandemic began.

DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Now is the time to act. Now is the time to do something about it.

HILL: COVID-related hospitalizations at record highs in five states.

ANDY SLAVITT, FORMER ACTING ADMINISTRATOR, CENTERS FOR MEDICARE AND MEDICAID SERVICES: Our enemy isn't knowing what to do longer. Our enemy is figuring out what is in our best interests.

HILL: In New York, hefty fines and tickets as the city tries to contain clusters by enforcing masks, limiting gatherings and closing nonessential businesses.

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D), NEW YORK CITY: We are now in day four of the pause in those areas and we are seeing some results.

HILL: Dr. Deborah Birx in New Hampshire warning now is not the time to let down your guard. DR. DEBORAH BIRX, COORDINATOR, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS TASK FORCE:

This virus can spread among families and friends. If you are -- take your mask off and you're primarily indoors.

HILL: A message plenty of Americans are still ignoring starting at the top.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'll walk into that audience.

HILL: This Sunday concert in Nashville now under investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's officially a protest, okay? So, it's legal.

HILL: For gathering without a permit and exceeding the city's currently max of 25 people. The mask mandate also largely ignored.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you were at that event, you should really lay low and try to stay home.

HILL: Johnson & Johnson pausing phase three of its vaccine trial because of an unexpected illness in one of the volunteers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To me, it's reassuring that companies are acting responsibly and pausing when they need to.

HILL: AstraZeneca's U.S. trials remain on hold pending an FDA investigation.

A setback for global superstar Cristiano Ronaldo now in isolation after testing positive.

Meantime, in Dallas, a big moment for Major League Baseball.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's amazing.

HILL: Spectators, more than 11,000 allowed in for game one of the NLCS.

FREDDIE FREEMAN, ATLANTA BRAVES FIRST BASEMAN: It's just great to have baseball fans in the stands again.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HILL: We just learned that Eli Lilly has now paused trials for its antibody treatment. This is one the president has touted. The company telling CNN in a statement, quote, safety is of the utmost importance, though without offering specifics. We should point out, Lilly had already applied for emergency use authorization for that treatment with the FDA. Now, this is not the antibody treatment that the president was given. That one is made by Regeneron, though Regeneron has also applied for that emergency use authorization -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Erica Hill, thank you so much.

Joining us now to discuss, the clinical director of infectious diseases at Brigham and Women's Hospital, Dr. Paul Sax.

Dr. Sax, thanks for joining us.

Let's talk about the fact that there is antibody treatment by Eli Lilly.

[16:20:03]

It's not the same thing that President Trump took, which is antibody cocktail by Regeneron, although it's similar. What does this pause mean?

DR. PAUL SAX, PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE, HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL: Generally, when you're doing a clinical trial of an experimental product and there is a pause, it means that someone in the trial has gotten sick with something. That's all it means and it needs to be investigated.

We don't know if they were receiving the active drug. That is something for the people overseeing the study, the so-called Data Safety Monitoring Board to look at the results, to see whether the person who got that product was actually sick from it and then to make an assessment about whether it should go forward.

It's actually a very standard part of clinical research and one of the reasons why it's important to do these controlled clinical trials.

TAPPER: President Trump got emergency humanitarian use of that Regeneron antibody cocktail, more than one antibody. I think it was a couple mixed together. He was only one of ten people outside of the clinical trials to have been given that.

How related is the Regeneron antibody cocktail to the Eli Lilly antibody treatment? Should President Trump be worried?

SAX: Well, they're related in that they are both monoclonal antibodies directed against the virus. But other than that, they have a very different molecular structure. So, so far, we don't have a singular pause on the studies of Regeneron products. So, I would say that now that he's been -- you know, several weeks. It's been over -- I can't remember the exact time.

TAPPER: Several days, right.

(CROSSTALK)

SAX: Time is very funny these days.

TAPPER: Right.

SAX: I don't think he is in any danger from the Regeneron product that he received.

TAPPER: So, Johnson & Johnson has been also forced to pause. Its vaccine trial, not a treatment, its vaccine after a participant reported an unexplained illness. AstraZeneca's trial also paused. You say this is a normal part of the process, though?

SAX: Yeah, it is a normal part of the process. And I think we're going to see it as the COVID-19 vaccine and treatment research goes forward, in particular because the research is proceeding at such a break-neck pace, as you've heard. I'm sure numerous times, this is the fastest we've ever developed any kind of vaccine in history.

And so, as these studies are rolling forward with tens of thousands of participants, it's not unexpected that there will be occasional safety pauses. It's really important that we get these safety data before these vaccines are widely rolled out.

TAPPER: And this underscores the argument of why vaccines should be -- the release of them should be determined by science and scientific evidence and not by politicians who are eager for a quick cure to help the re-election prospects?

SAX: Yes, yes. As much as possible. You know, the artificial dates that are set aside for when we're going to have a vaccine really don't make any sense. Really, the research has to proceed according to the plan and I'm very encouraged by the fact that so far, it has done so.

TAPPER: Why do you think coronavirus cases are spiking around the country? What -- is it just because so many Americans have decided that they have fatigue? They don't want to deal with this anymore? They're going to bars? I mean, what's the reason this is happening?

SAX: Well, it's a combination of factors. I think what you cite is certainly one of them and there are people who still don't believe that it can be spread or don't believe that it's serious. But obviously, the mortality statistics show that it is quite serious.

The other reason is that this is a seasonal virus. We have to remember that even though cases surged in the South the summertime, that's probably because people were heading indoors due to the heat. You know, now we are in the cooler climates in the North, we have been expecting an I increase in cases for sometime. And the key is really getting ahead of it and avoiding the kind of super spreader events that are triggered by having large gatherings of people close together.

That's clearly what drives this epidemic. We have to control those settings until we have a safe vaccine.

TAPPER: Well, the only super spreader events I know going on without any sort of consideration, because -- I mean, there are football stadiums having games but they are filling the stadiums at like 1/8 capacity. I mean, there is a lot of responsible dipping a toe into the water kind of approaches to this.

But the only super spreader events that you're talking about people gathering together and no masks and no distance that I know about are President Trump's rallies.

SAX: Well, you're not going to be surprised to hear this since I've speaking on what have of infectious decease specialists right now, but we do not recommend people gather in crowds like that under any circumstances.

TAPPER: And yet, President Trump is doing it.

SAX: Yeah. It's not what we would recommend under any circumstances because clearly this virus can spread from person-to-person in extremely, you know, in a brisk fashion. All it takes is wrong person in the wrong place at the wrong time to have the kind of event where dozens of people can get infected. So we would not recommend that people gather in these crowded situations without masks.

TAPPER: In fact, we've already seen it from President Trump's rallies in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and also in Minnesota.

[16:25:04]

Dr. Paul Sax, thank you so much for your time today. Appreciate it.

SAX: Thank you for inviting me.

TAPPER: Obamacare, abortion rights, same-sex marriage, whether President Trump can delay the election, whether Judge Amy Coney Barrett indicated where her key decisions could take the United States if confirmed.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Right this minute, Judge Amy Coney Barrett continues to face questions on Capitol Hill as part of her confirmation process to be the next U.S. Supreme Court justice.

[16:30:00]