Return to Transcripts main page

The Lead with Jake Tapper

Interview With Mary Trump; Philadelphia Police Shooting; Supreme Court Issues Controversial Ruling On Counting Wisconsin Ballots; Biden's Closing: We Can Unite And Heal The Country. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired October 27, 2020 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:31:54]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: In our 2020 lead: Absentee ballots in Wisconsin will not be counted if they arrive after Election Day, even if they were mailed and postmarked long before, that significant ruling from the U.S. Supreme Court coming just days before the U.S. election and in a crucial battleground state.

The court rejected Democrats' attempt to allow late-arriving ballots to be counted up to six days after the election.

CNN's Bill Weir joins me now from Milwaukee. It's a city he's familiar with.

Bill, this ruling, it's a major win for Republicans in a state that is key to President Trump's reelection chances. How could this decision impact the vote tally, do you think?

BILL WEIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's really interesting to wonder just that.

Just it adds more urgency, certainly, in this very pivotal battleground state. It's hard to see the president winning reelection without the 10 Wisconsin electoral votes. About 1.8 million ballots have been sent out; 85 percent of them are already back in.

And today is the last day, they're saying, to mail them before -- so they have a good shot. So you see a lot of people here in the South Side of Milwaukee lined up around this library to vote in person. Some are dropping off those ballots.

But if we use the handy Wisconsin-shaped mitten to talk about demographics, down near the wrist, Milwaukee, Madison, those are blue islands that have only gotten bluer in the last four years of presidents over here on the side near the Minnesota border Fond du Lac County, again, another example of voters shifting there.

So, Republicans are wondering, can they pick up an extra 20,000 votes or so. This state went by just 23,000 out of about 3,000 four years ago. Democrats they think they have more than enough numbers coming out of the North Side of Chicago, as black pastors get the Souls to the Polls. They think they have more votes for about Joe Biden out of farm

country, where a lot of small family farms have gone bankrupt in the last couple years. But this Supreme Court ruling, is you say, Jack -- could be -- Jake, could be a bellwether for election night.

TAPPER: And, Bill, Justice Kavanaugh, Brett Kavanaugh, gave an argument for rejecting late-arriving ballots that possibly foreshadows how the court might handle any post-election legal fights.

He seemed to echo President Trump's rhetoric in some way. Tell us more about what he wrote.

WEIR: He's making it all about election night results, which, of course, is not a law anywhere.

He wrote that these "states want to avoid suspicions of impropriety that can ensure, if thousands of absentee ballots flow in after the Election Day and potentially flip the results of the election."

Well, Justice Elena Kagan in the dissent wrote: "There are no results to flip until all of the valid votes are counted. And in many states, that happens in the days after they're certified." And she wrote: "Nothing is more suspicious or improper than refusing to tally votes once the clock strikes midnight on Election Day."

Actually, here in Wisconsin, Jake, it's 8:00 p.m. on Election Day, so that's about 172 hours to get those ballots in.

TAPPER: Yes, I mean, we have seen races, House races in California in 2018, and then the election of Senator Kyrsten Sinema. McSally was up that day, and then there were all these absentee ballots, all these vote-by-mail that came in. It's all the votes.

[16:35:07]

There's no time -- the predictions are by us in the media. It's not from the states or the commonwealths.

Bill Weir, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

We have some breaking news in today's national lead. At any moment, we're expecting to hear from the district attorney in Philadelphia after the shooting death of a black man that stirred violent protests in Philadelphia last night.

Monday afternoon, police got a call about a man waving a knife. Cell phone video captured what happens next.

I want to give you a warning if you're watching. What you're about to see may be disturbing to some of our viewers. So, anyway, here it is; 27-year-old Walter Wallace was the man shot by police. The witness who took the video so, just moments before, Wallace's mother told police that her son had mental health issues.

He was brandishing a knife. I don't know how well you can see that in the video. Now two officers involved in the shooting have been assigned to desk duty.

In a statement to CNN affiliate KYW, the head of the police union is asking everyone to wait for the investigation and not vilify the police departments.

CNN's Brynn Gingras is in Philadelphia and joins me now.

Brynn, what are we expecting to hear from the district attorney? He's about to speak.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jake, we're expecting to hear where its investigation stands right now.

Of course, this just happened. But we know Larry Krasner has been in office since 2018. He ran a campaign on criminal justice reform. So you can imagine this case is a priority for his office. Now, this is a separate investigation from what the police department is doing.

They have their own internal investigation going on. And we actually got a bit of an update on those details, because quite -- really, Jake, everyone is just angry at this point, wondering, why did it resort to shots being fired during that scene?

Even when we were at the family's house, where aunts and uncles were screaming from the balconies of their apartment, saying, where was the de-escalation? Why weren't Tasers used?

And if you look at that video -- again, I know you showed your viewers -- the questions are, if he didn't even lunge at police, how come they even fired shots?

These were all posed to the police commissioner earlier this afternoon. And she essentially said it's still under investigation. But she did tell us that both those two officers, who you said are now on desk duty, they were not carrying Tasers. They each fired seven shots.

But, again, it doesn't really answer the question as to why shots were fired in the first place. So, there is just a ton of anger in the killing of this 27-year-old man, who we learned from family members was an aspiring rap artist. And that anger really poured onto the streets of Philadelphia overnight.

There was a number of looting incidents, a number of arrests, 30 arrests in all. There were officers that were also injured. One, in fact, has a broken leg after being hit by a pickup truck.

I can tell you, Jake, it is -- everyone is preparing for a very rough night tonight as well. We have seen businesses boarding up, closing down early. And there is a call from the police department to get help, just in case things get out of hand again, again, as this community is really suffering with this one, asking so many questions that really can't be answered at this point, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Brynn Gingras in Philadelphia, thank you so much.

Coming up next, President Trump's niece will join us live.

Why Mary Trump thinks that mental health professionals should be allowed to openly discuss what she's calling the president's obvious -- quote -- "impairment."

That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:43:20]

TAPPER: In our 2020 lead today: President Trump's niece, who is a clinical psychologist, is calling on the American Psychiatric Association to drop the so-called Goldwater rule, which bars mental health professionals from diagnosing public figures that they have not examined in person.

Mary Trump says that psychiatrists -- quote -- "know what's wrong with my uncle." And she says it's time they tell voters.

And Mary Trump joins us now. She's also the author of "Too Much and Never Enough: How My Family Created the World's Most Dangerous Man."

Welcome, Mary. Thanks so much for joining us.

So, you have been outspoken about your uncle for months now. What do you say to medical professionals who believe that discussing the president's mental fitness could add to a mental illness stigma, discussing it the way you do?

MARY TRUMP, AUTHOR, "TOO MUCH AND NEVER ENOUGH: HOW MY FAMILY CREATED THE WORLD'S MOST DANGEROUS MAN": I would say that not discussing it adds to the mental health illness stigma.

By pretending that mental illness is somehow out of bounds is to suggest that there's something shameful about it. And that's not the case. Also, in the context of our leaders, what could be more important to the American electorate than the psychological well-being of the people in charge?

TAPPER: So, I chastised Lara Trump two Sundays ago for diagnosing Joe Biden's cognitive skills.

Obviously, she has no training to do so. She's not a psychiatrist or a psychologist or a medical professional at all.

Do you worry at all about weaponizing these kinds of diagnoses, whether or not individuals are trained? I don't think it would be tough to find -- I mean, if the cat's out of the bag, you know, I don't think it would be tough to find a psychiatrist who would diagnose anybody with anything, to be frank.

[16:45:04]

MARY TRUMP: Yeah. I just want to clarify something. That the original Goldwater rule which was written in 1967 did specifically say that psychiatrists should not diagnose public figures as you just said.

And, by the way, that's technically impossible. Diagnosis is a very lengthy precise procedure which requires the collection of data through testing. So that makes perfect sense. You cannot diagnose people who are not your patients.

They expanded the rule in 2017, however, past the point of coherence by suggesting that mental health professionals can't even comment upon observable behavior.

So what happens then is laypeople are left to speculate about people's mental health issues without any guidance at all from professionals.

TAPPER: You take issue with the American Psychiatric Association directly. You write in "The Washington Post," quote: Adopting a notionally neutral stance in this case doesn't just create a void where professional expertise should be -- it serves to normalize dysfunctional behavior.

Explain what you mean.

MARY TRUMP: Well, if we see somebody behaving in a rational self- destructive ways and say nothing, then that is to suggest that there is nothing wrong with such behavior even if we know there is.

Just to use an example, when Donald left Walter Reed Hospital to put himself in a sealed car with Secret Service agents to go wave at people, he was -- he was ill. So he was endangering his own health but he was also endangering the health of the men forced to be in that car with him.

This is not rational behavior and if it's not commented upon from a psychological point of view, then people are left to think that it's just, you know, it's just self-serving or it's selfish or it's idiosyncratic, when, in fact, it's actually pathological.

TAPPER: We had a psychiatrist on the show after the first debate who described the president's behavior as emotionally abusive, as behavior at the debate, what he was doing in terms of the constant interruptions. And, you know -- in addition to being a trained professional, you also know him.

Would you agree that that would describe his behavior at the debate?

MARY TRUMP: Yes, it was assaultive and I'm sure that most people watching it experienced it that way. So, you know, it was something that should not have been allowed to happen and it also allowed Donald to change the subject once again from substance to, you know, just optics.

TAPPER: What do you want -- how would you diagnose the president if you were reluctant to do so because of the Goldwater rule?

MARY TRUMP: I'm not reluctant to do so because of Goldwater rule. First of all, I'm a psychologist and not a psychiatrist.

TAPPER: Right.

MARY TRUMP: And I'm not bound by that association.

But again, diagnosis is a technical process which would require subjecting a patient to an intake and various test batteries and that's not -- so, it's technically not possible to diagnose him. All we can do is evaluate his behavior in the text of symptomatology and I think that's entirely within our rights as mental health professionals and, in fact, we owe it to the American people to do so and give them a context in which to understand Donald's very pathological behaviors.

TAPPER: And one of the things that I find so curious about his closing argument, his closing display he is having these rallies in the middle of the pandemic. They are not requiring people to wear masks. There's no distancing. People are gathered together.

We have already seen people get infected at his rallies. It is a matter of fact in Tulsa, in Minnesota, in Washington, D.C. at that Rose Garden event.

How would you describe that in terms of your expertise?

MARY TRUMP: I would suggest that this is just a continuation of Donald's need to pretend that he's handled this crisis well all along when, in fact, it's quite the opposite. He cannot admit that he made a mistake, so he will not course-correct and he will double and quadruple down on totally failed policies that at this point need to be seen as willful.

Herman Cain died because of getting the COVID virus at one of Donald's rallies. Who knows how many other people fell ill and died because of it?

[16:50:03]

I don't understand why he is not subjected to the same rules laid down by the CDC as other American citizens are. It's incredibly dangerous and, at this point, he needs to be held responsible for every single infection and death resulting from his incredibly reckless behavior.

TAPPER: Just as a point of fact, we don't where Herman Cain contracted the virus, but the timeline certainly could work out that he got it there. We don't -- we just don't know it for a fact.

Mary Trump, thank you so much. We really appreciate your time today.

Seven days until Election Day, and President Trump and Joe Biden are pulling out their closing arguments to the public. I'm going to discuss with a veteran political adviser next.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:55:15] TAPPER: In our 2020 lead today, Joe Biden is trying to make his closing argument today in Georgia where a Democratic presidential candidate has not won since 1992. He's playing off his campaign long theme of the need for unity, for healing the nation.

Meanwhile, President Trump is holding giant rallies hoping to excite and turn out his base, relying on false claims that we are rounding the corner on the pandemic.

Joining me now is CNN senior political commentator, host of the "AXE FILES" and former Obama official, David Axelrod.

David, thanks so much for joining us.

How do you design a closing argument for a candidate, especially in such a contentious race?

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. Well, look, I think that you want to design a closing message that is constantly with the message you've been delivering throughout. Biden's message has been pretty consistent -- the unity message, the message of prizing science over fiction and so on.

And he's really pitching himself as the antithesis of Trump, the anti- Trump, which is an effective message at the time of crisis when there is so much -- when there's so many questions.

Trump on the other hand is making -- is trying to make it about Biden. He talks about how good things were before the virus. He talks about how good there'll be after the virus, and he describes, you know, a socialist dystopia of high taxes and marauding mobs that people will buy if they change horses now.

Now, the thing that he doesn't do is acknowledge what we are facing right now which is the crisis and he is betting that he can do that, that his supporters will be willing to forgive that and blame it on the Chinese and say he is doing the best he can and move on. And it's a big bet. But that is -- that is where he's at. It's a little like that old joke about how is the play otherwise, Mrs. Lincoln, right?

TAPPER: Right.

AXELROD: I mean, we are going through this crisis but he is intent on trying to downplay it and navigate around it.

TAPPER: If you were advising Trump, what would you suggest to him? How could he -- I mean, there's only seven days left so he couldn't really -- I mean, whatever is going to happen is going to happen. But if you were advising him, what would you say he should do? What should have been his closing message?

AXELROD: I think punching the economy much harder. Talking about -- he still has some credibility on that in polling, talking about what he had built and that he is the guy who can rebuild the economy when we come out of this. I think most Republicans would have like him to do that. But the problem he cannot stay on message and he is indulging himself in these rallies, you know, with all kinds of side issues and incendiary comments about whoever is bugging him that day. And that takers precedent over this fundamental economic message that had some promise for him, and, you know, Trump is being Trump and Trump may defeat Trump.

TAPPER: And the conservative media, the MAGA media, their focusing so much on Joe Biden's son Hunter.

AXELROD: Yeah.

TAPPER: And I wonder -- I mean, Ted Cruz told Jon Swan of "Axios" he doesn't think that moves one voter. I mean, I got to believe that if the Hunter Biden story is important to you, you're already voting for Trump.

AXELROD: Yeah. And, look, you saw the debate. The president spent maybe five to six minutes trying to explain it and it sounded like what it is, which is a right-wing conspiracy theory that's unverified.

And there's a more transcendent reality for people like right now, we are in the middle of a pandemic, we have economic problems and I don't think that this is what is going to grip them. It does not relate to their lives. This is not -- this is not 2016 and President Trump has not made the adjustment.

TAPPER: At this point in 2012, the Obama re-election, the poll average had Mitt Romney up narrowly and that, obviously, did not happen.

Do you have any predictions as to what is happening in a week?

AXELROD: Well, look. I think that the national polling is pretty accurate. It was -- you know, we were -- we won but we won by four points. They weren't that off. Four years ago they were within a point and all of the data you see points to a Biden victory and I don't see anything -- I know it makes people nervous who support Joe Biden when I say this, but I think he's got control of the race and part of the reason he does is because of Donald Trump himself and how he is conducting himself in this campaign.

TAPPER: All right. David Axelrod, good to see you. Thanks so much for joining us.

More than 226,000 Americans have been killed by coronavirus. We would like to take a moment to remember just one of them. His life was cut short by this pandemic.

Miguel Cortez (ph) died at 62 years old. Those who knew Miguel described him as a free spirit who cherished every moment he spent with his family and who always seemed to always have a smile on his face. Miguel Cortez leaves behind his beloved sister, his niece and his nephew.

May his memory and that of every victim of this horrible virus be a blessing. Our coverage on CNN continues right now.