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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Pfizer Says Vaccine Over 90 Percent Effective; Trump Fires Defense Secretary; Georgia Secretary of State Refuses to Step Down, Says Trump "Unlikely" to Win Georgia Electoral Votes; Senate Majority Likely to be Decided by Two Runoffs in Georgia. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired November 09, 2020 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:30:00]

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Oh, absolutely.

And, Jake, we have been talking so much about a peaceful transition. We also need to have a smooth transition, because, remember, the business of government goes on from Monday to Tuesday to Wednesday. And if you're looking for a small business loan, you don't -- you don't want to be like the person with a new apartment waiting for the cable guy to come, right?

Things have to continue to work and work the very -- at 12:01, when the new president is sworn in, people have to be answering the phones. There is still work to be done.

Traditionally, what happens is that, at this time, there should be GSA. There are some services that are made available to the president- elect. My job was actually, in early January, to go and take a look at office space that would become Hillary Clinton's West Wing office and her office -- our office space for our team in the Old Executive Office Building, because, again, you have got agency reviews to do.

You have got staffing to do. You have got office space to worry about, all so that you can have a smooth transition for the good of the American people.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Bill, one...

(CROSSTALK)

BILL KRISTOL, DIRECTOR, DEFENDING DEMOCRACY TOGETHER: Can I just add a word to that, Jake?

TAPPER: Go ahead. Yes, go ahead.

KRISTOL: Because I was in the George H.W. Bush White House, as Vice President Quayle's chief of staff.

They're also things that happened during the transition. So, as I recall -- and I haven't looked this up, I might have the date slightly wrong -- I think it was in December of 1992 that we sent troops into Somalia, into Mogadishu, an ill-fated expedition, as it happened. But that was a major commitment. President Bush discussed it with

president-elect Clinton. I was a bit player, but I remember calling my incoming counterpart, Roy Neel, I think who was going to be Al Gore's chief of staff -- I was the vice president's chief of staff -- just to say heads up, your boss is going to be getting a call from Brent Scowcroft explaining what's happening.

We're not asking you to necessarily support it, but just to understand what you're going to be inheriting. It makes -- that didn't turn out so well, so maybe it's not a great example of how important transitions are.

But we're a powerful country with a lot of interests around the world. And you hate to have a total disconnect between the outgoing government and the incoming government.

TAPPER: Right.

I mean, even if you take the position that President Trump has every right to pursue every legal remedy that he wants to in courts or with -- before election boards, which is true. He has every right to do so. It doesn't look as though there's any possible path, but if he wants to do that, he can.

There still needs to be the transition process. And, Bill, one National Security Council official told CNN that they have not received any guidance on the transition and -- quote -- "I think it's going to be messy."

If the Trump GSA official is not allowing the transition to go forward, which is -- appears to be the case, based on our reporting. What does that mean?

KRISTOL: Well, it means things, both formally -- I mean, I think the FBI can still patch through the briefings and start processing security clearances.

But there's a lot of informal coordination that you would want to have happening. Yes, McConnell said that. The president has every right to do this.

I'm old enough to remember when conservatives especially made a distinction between what someone has a right to do and what the right thing to do is. And we used to think the president, sometimes at least, should try to do the right thing, not just exercise every possible arguable legal power they have, regardless of the sake of the nation.

What about COVID? The vice president-elect is having meetings about a pandemic that is killing more than 1,000 people a day. And the president, so far as we know, has paid zero attention to it.

TAPPER: And, Karen, president-elect Biden is trying to set the tone for his administration's approach to the pandemic, which is his main priority right now, his main focus. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT: A mask is not a political statement, but it is a good way to start pulling the country together.

It doesn't matter who you voted for. We are Americans and our country is under threat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: And, in fact, the outgoing governor of Utah last night put out guidance pushing people in Utah to wear a mask.

It's obviously a very different message than what we have heard from President Trump.

FINNEY: Right.

Well, look, Jake, as we have discussed before, there's absolutely no reason that wearing a mask should be a political issue. It is a safety issue. And as part of his COVID plan, and as part of this vice -- president-elect -- I'm going to have to get used to saying that -- president-elect Biden's plan is to slowly, but surely reassure the American people there is a team in place, there is a plan in place, we're going to take it day by day, as he ramps up his plan to keep Americans safe.

And wearing masks is something that we know actually works. And it is in the interest of this country. I will keep saying -- and I think we will be saying it a lot over the next 72 days -- for Donald Trump or the people around him to say, in a pandemic, where you have 10 million cases in the United States, where you have people dying every day, we do not have time for this foolishness.

We have to put the good of the country ahead and allow for Joe Biden to continue to move forward with his plans.

TAPPER: Bill Kristol, Karen Finney, thanks to both of you. Appreciate it.

Claims it is more than 90 percent effective -- the best news yet about a possible coronavirus vaccine. There is some skepticism, though.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:39:22]

TAPPER: In our health lead today, huge news in the race for a coronavirus vaccine.

Pfizer says its vaccine is more than 90 percent effective in preventing infection, as the U.S. just passed 10 million coronavirus cases.

CNN's Athena Jones reports, even Dr. Fauci is encouraged. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALBERT BOURLA, CEO, PFIZER: It's a very important day for humanity.

ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It could be the coronavirus vaccine the world has been waiting for, Pfizer and its partner BioNTech announcing an early analysis shows its vaccine candidate is more than 90 percent effective.

BOURLA: It is extraordinary, but it's coming at a time that the world needs it the most.

[16:40:00]

JONES: The company saying it expects to seek emergency use authorization from the FDA as soon as next week and is on track to produce up to 50 million doses this year and more than a billion next year, saying it will be free for Americans.

Dr. Anthony Fauci telling CNN by text, "It's extraordinarily good news," while others express cautious optimism.

DR. JAY VARKEY, EMORY UNIVERSITY: If, in deep dive of that data, that really shows like 90 percent efficacy, that'd be phenomenal, because, again, the FDA has been clear that even a vaccine that had 50 percent efficacy would actually help move the ball.

JONES: The promising news coming as the country reaches another grim milestone, 10 million COVID cases, more than 237,000 lives lost, 43 states now seeing a surge. Sunday was the fifth day in a row the U.S. topped 100,000 new cases in a single day.

DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Many of our hospitals, particularly across the Mountain West, the Midwest, the Upper Midwest are already getting overwhelmed.

JONES: Hospitalizations setting records in 19 states, with 30 states hitting their peak seven-day average for new cases on Sunday, including Indiana, where Notre Dame fans, ignoring social distancing guidelines, rushed the football field after the team's upset victory over Clemson on Saturday.

The university's president, who was himself diagnosed with COVID-19 after visiting the White House without a mask, announcing new measures, including putting students' registration hold if they refuse to submit to COVID testing.

Meanwhile, new concerns in New York City, once the epicenter of the crisis, where the positivity rate, while still low, is rising once again.

BILL DE BLASIO (D), MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY, NY: And that is dangerous. So, we have one last chance to stop a second wave.

(END VIDEOTAPE) JONES: And Mayor de Blasio says, if New York hits that full-blown second wave, it will mean a lot more restrictions, maybe even having to shut down parts of the economy again.

The city's health department is now providing more tools to people to help them track the infection rate, releasing new data showing the percent of people who tested positive for COVID-19 by zip code for the past 11 days -- or past seven days of available data -- Jake.

TAPPER: Athena Jones, thank you so much.

I want to bring in CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta, who interviewed the CEO of Pfizer this morning.

Sanjay, this new -- this news came through a press release. And because it's interim data, not a final analysis, there is not yet a peer-reviewed study. Does that give you any pause about the accuracy of what Pfizer is claiming?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I don't think it gives me pause about the accuracy. But it is very early data.

So, I think it's -- we got to be careful not to read too much into this, Jake. I think this was an independent committee, this data Safety Monitoring Committee that is the first to unblind the data. They actually called the CEO of Pfizer over the weekend at 2:00 yesterday to tell him what the data showed.

He didn't know the data. And he hasn't actually still seen the data. He's just seen the results. But let me just tell you quickly what it was.

This is -- it's fairly simple, but the numbers are important; 44,000 people roughly have been in this trial. And throughout the trial period, 94 people became infected. It's not a huge number, Jake. But what they found was that, if you received the vaccine, you were 90 percent more protected against people who received the placebo.

So, the vast majority of the infections were in the placebo group, not the vaccinated group. It's sort of -- that's how it works. That's how they figure these things out.

I asked the CEO specifically about this, and the impact and the significance. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOURLA: Ninety percent is a game-changer, 90 percent. Now you're hoping to have a tool in your war against this pandemic that could be significantly effective.

How long this protection will last is something that we don't know right now, but it's part of the objective of the study.

We will follow up the 44,000 people that they received -- they are part of this study for two years. And during this follow-up, obviously, we will be looking also the durability of the immune responses.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: So, Jake, all in all, good news.

But I think the thing that I was driving at with Mr. Bourla there was, look, you have a disease that for 80 percent of people, they're going to have minimal or no symptoms, right? So if you say, now the vaccine is 90 percent effective, that's great. It's really important.

But is it going to be that effective in the people who are most at risk of getting sick? Does this vaccine reduce or prevent serious disease as well?

And we don't know the answer to that. But that's going to be an important endpoint that -- to figure out.

TAPPER: Of course, a lot of people who are fans of the outgoing president, President Trump, including members of his family, are now questioning the timing of this announcement, after the presidential election was called.

You asked Pfizer's CEO about that. What did he have to say?

GUPTA: Well, he's a scientist, and he gave the sort of answer that you would expect.

Listen -- listen to what he said specifically.

[16:45:01]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: Should we read anything into the fact that this got announced right after the election?

ALBERT BOURIA, CHAIRMAN AND CEO, PFIZER: Yes, science brought it exactly this time. We announced it the moment we learned about it. And I said multiple times that the election for us was artificial time line. I was predicting that this would happen before the end of October. Eventually, it happened a week later because this is when science brought it to us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: You know, Jake, in the beginning, they were having a hard time actually getting enough data. There weren't enough people becoming infected and that is what you need to prove that the vaccine works.

So, it was this independent body, the Data Safety Monitoring Board, that unblinded the data.

So, it wasn't really Pfizer itself as an organization that did that. They were told what the data showed afterwards yesterday at 2:00.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Yesterday was the fifth day in a row that the U.S. reported more than 100,000 new coronavirus cases in a single day. New cases are up all over the map, up in 43 states.

What needs to happen right now to turn this around and were you upset as we thought you might be to see all of those crowds together celebrating the Biden/Harris victory? Many of them wearing masks but still gathering?

GUPTA: Yeah. I mean, Jake, whether it's a rally, political rally or a protest, the virus as we have said so many times on your program, doesn't care -- the virus doesn't care. It likes to jump from person to person and being outside is much better and wearing a mask is obviously much better, but, you know, the virus is a very contagious virus. That we have established.

So, it was -- it's a concern and what I would say about any plans going forward in terms of, you know, really reinforcing masks and amping up testing is going to be important. But, Jake, I have to say honestly as well that we are starting to go into exponential growth in this country.

If we implement some of these basic public health strategies in a big way now, have widespread rapidly available testing, really, you know, leaning on the masks in a big way, we could bring the curve down faster.

But, Jake, I don't want to sugarcoat this. I think we are hitting a significant apex over the next couple of months. I looked at several models over the weekend, talked to these epidemiologists, I said, if we just slam the brakes on right now?

You can't slam the brakes on right now. This is a huge steam with lots of inertia moving through the ocean. You slam on the brakes, it's still going to move for a while.

So, it doesn't mean we don't do things. We have to do things. But that's to bring the curve down faster on the other side, which is, you know, several weeks from now.

And the vaccine is important. But you know it's not going to be widely distributed until probably spring or summer of next year.

TAPPER: Former FDA commissioner, Dr. Scott Gottlieb, said that if states don't start implementing targeted mitigation, cases are going to explode in the coming weeks. What does that mean? What is targeted mitigation? What does it look like?

GUPTA: It's -- you know, it's funny. Everyone has different sort of interpretation of this. And everyone takes great pains to avoid saying lock down or shutdown or circuit breaker. But in many ways, that is what they are saying.

I mean, you know, Scott Gottlieb is referring to all the public health measures that we're talking about. It's closing down bars, indoor locations where you can't mask and poorly ventilated, things like that. But this idea that is lurking out there that there may be circuit breaker shutdowns which, again, no one wants to hear that, I realize, but that is going to be very dependent on what's happening in the hospitals in those areas.

If hospitals are simply running out of room and you've already tapped out your regional sort of support in terms of where you could send patients, you have to do something to stop the spread, the transmission of the virus and that may be what it is. But targeted, not nationwide, and probably very specific types of locations, indoor places where you can't mask would be the highest on the list.

And, you know, that would go for indoor gatherings, you know, for the holiday dinners as well, which is tough. I'd love to see my elderly parents this Thanksgiving but we are not getting a chance to do that.

TAPPER: The election may be essentially over. The virus continues charging ahead.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks so much.

GUPTA: You got it.

TAPPER: Just in to CNN, a surprising statement from Georgia's Republican secretary of state on President Trump's chances of winning any recount. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:54:05]

TAPPER: We have some breaking news for you now on our 2020 lead, where Georgia's Republican secretary of state is refusing calls to step down. Both of the state's Republican senators, David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler, who are up for re-election in January in special elections, both of them called for him to resign though they provided zero evidence of any wrongdoing.

In an extraordinary statement, Brad Raffensperger called the election with its record turnout during a pandemic a resounding success and said later, quote, was there illegal voting? I'm sure there was. And my office is investigating all of it. Does it rise to the numbers or margin necessary to change the outcome to where President Trump is given Georgia's electoral votes? That is unlikely, unquote.

CNN's political director David Chalian joins me now.

We cannot, David, yet project presidential results in Georgia. Tell us where everything stands.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, take a look at Georgia, got a few more votes there today. Joe Biden's lead at 11,596 votes, 49.5 percent to Donald Trump's 49.3 percent.

[16:55:07]

That's in a range of where a recount can be requested once we get past the certification deadline and the Trump campaign has indicated that's likely to happen.

So this may go to a recount, but I've never seen a recount, Jake, that overturns 11,500 votes.

Let me show you other places on the maps. We still haven't projected an outcome in Arizona. Joe Biden's there has been going in the other direction. It's been on a decline as Donald Trump is making up ground. He's 16,037 votes ahead.

You see there that that's a 0.6 margin, nowhere near close what would be needed to trigger an automatic recount in Arizona. And there's still some 75,000, 80,000 ballots that need to be counted in Arizona. So, we await for those.

And, of course, in your home commonwealth of Pennsylvania, we see now that Joe Biden has a 45,400 vote lead over Donald Trump. It's a 0.7 percent spread, so we're not at that 0.5 percent that would trigger an automatic recount there. And, by the way, that margin that Joe Biden has, it's bigger than the margin Donald Trump had over Hillary Clinton four years ago when he won the state, Jake.

TAPPER: So, when will Arizona, Georgia, Pennsylvania -- when will they be releasing anymore votes? When is this going to be over? When are we going to know to final tally?

CHALIAN: Yeah. I mean, there are different certification deadlines for each state, but we are getting votes every day. We've got a little bit from Georgia today, some from Pennsylvania and Arizona, but over the next several days, we're going to get most of these votes as they come in, and then within the next two weeks or so, you're going to see certification deadlines hit where that initial canvass of the vote is reported out as a final tally.

TAPPER: All right. David Chalian, thank you so much. Appreciate that update.

CHALIAN: Sure.

TAPPER: Georgia is also likely to decide the balance of power in the U.S. Senate because there are the two runoff elections in January, four of the two Senate seats, Republican senators.

CNN's Manu Raju joins me now.

Manu, where is the balance of power in the Senate now?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right now, it's 50-48. Republicans have that advantage, which is why it's so significant, these two seats.

If Democrats pick up both seats, it will be an evenly divided 50-50 Senate, and Kamala Harris being the vice president, the president of the Senate, it's her constitutional role, she would have the ability to cast tie breaking votes, meaning the Democrats would have a 50/50 majority in the Senate, being able to essentially set the agenda. Chuck Schumer would be the Democratic leader. They would be able to put any bills they want on the floor. They would be able to try to move President Biden's nominations, but it would still be difficult to get anything done given that 60 votes would be required to overcome a filibuster to pass legislation.

But nevertheless, it's incredibly significant for the first two years of Joe Biden's presidency who will be setting the agenda in the Senate, his nominations, his bills all lying on what happens here in Georgia, Jake.

TAPPER: And that special election is January 5th. When are we going to know who won those two Senate races?

RAJU: It could take some time, Jake, and especially if it's close. So, that could be weeks after January. But, of course, if one side wins by a bigger margin than the other, perhaps we'll know that evening.

It's also a big question about how many voters will ultimately turn out. Of course, both Donald Trump and Joe Biden, neither of them will be on the ticket, so it's uncertain how big the turnout will be in November's election. Roughly 5 million voters showed up. There are about 7.6 million registered voters in Georgia.

So, will they have high turnout? Democrat have high hopes. Already Stacey Abrams' organization who has been instrumental at registering voters has raised more than $7 million for the runoffs in Georgia. Can they get the numbers up particularly in those expanding, diversifying suburbs of Atlanta?

Both sides will be making their arguments to drive out their base, but the big question will be who will turn out to the polls and who gives the majority to which party come January.

TAPPER: And, Manu, the two incumbent senators who are up for re- election in January for the special elections, they're now attacking the election integrity, Republican election officials in Georgia. That seems potentially unwise. They want Republicans to turn out in droves and have confidence in the system.

RAJU: Yeah, all along these two senators, David Perdue, Kelly Loeffler have been aligning themselves with President Trump. Loffler has said she's 100 percent pro-Trump. That's what she argued ahead of November. David Perdue even skipped a debate with his Democratic opponent Jon Ossoff to appear with Donald Trump on the days before November, the November elections. And clearly here, they are also siding with the president's claims that this election was rigged, was stolen, but it's remarkable pushback, Jake, from that Republican official saying, no, it wasn't.

TAPPER: Yeah, siding with Trump at potentially their own expense.

Manu, thanks so much.

Finally, as coronavirus cases continue to soar, we want to take a moment to remember one of the lives lost in the pandemic.

Karen Argebright (ph) was a 57-year-old mom, grandma, Air Force veteran. She followed in her father's footsteps and enlisted in the Air Force right out of high school. She served for 20 years. Argebright (ph) was stationed all over the world. She retired with

military honors and her passion was supporting disabled veterans.

May her memory and that of all those lost be a blessing.

Our coverage on CNN continues right now.

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