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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Interview With Lt. Gov. Geoff Duncan (R-GA); Trump Refuses to Acknowledge Election Loss; Supreme Court Signals ACA Will Survive Latest Challenge. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired November 10, 2020 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:32:15]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: We're back with our 2020 lead.

President Trump is still refusing to concede after losing the 2020 presidential election, and working with the incoming Biden administration is not on his agenda. This is obviously a stark contrast to exactly four years ago today, when President Obama welcomed then president-elect Trump to the Oval Office.

It was exactly 12 years ago today that the Bushes welcomed the Obamas to the White House.

The peaceful transfer of power is not only a norm. It's a tradition in the United States. But, of course, so is a concession speech, a public acknowledgement of loss, respect for the voters, for Democratic institutions.

President Trump, here is how it's done.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE H.W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The people have spoken, and we respect the majesty of the democratic system.

BOB DOLE (D), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have said repeatedly in this campaign that the president was my opponent, not my enemy. And I wish him well.

AL GORE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: For the sake of our unity of the people and the strength of our democracy, I offer my concession.

JOHN KERRY (D), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Earlier today, I spoke to President Bush, and I offered him and Laura our congratulations on their victory.

JOHN MCCAIN (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I urge all Americans who supported me to join me in not just congratulating him, but offering our next president our goodwill and earnest effort to find ways to come together. SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is a

time of great challenges for America. And I pray that the president will be successful in guiding our nation.

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I congratulated Donald Trump and offered to work with him on behalf of our country.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: It's no doubt difficult to admit defeat. Losing isn't fun. But every one of those candidates put aside ego and partisan politics for the good of the United States and the American people, which is something we have yet to see from President Trump.

Let's discuss.

Abby, the president of the United States refusing to accept the results of this democratic election, what kind of message do you think this sends not only to the people who voted, but abroad, our allies and our enemies?

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Jake, I think it really undermines the United States' ability to take the sort of high road when it comes to democratic standards, when we can't really even enforce it here at home.

I think what we are seeing, and I think what the American people should recognize is that this is an exercise in people who have power doing everything that they can to hold onto it.

And that is not the tradition, as you just vividly showed everyone, of decades and decades and decades of losers being willing to say, I lost, I am willing to cede the stage.

[16:35:00]

The president wants to hold on to power more than anything else. And I think what we have learned this week is that his party also wants to hold onto power more than anything else, and are enabling him in his quest to overturn the results of this election.

TAPPER: And, Kim, following President Trump's lead, one of the key appointees in the government, in the GSA, is refusing to recognize the win, which means that the Biden transition cannot formally start.

Now, Joe Biden said today, president-elect Biden said he doesn't see the need for legal action. But he and his team have not ruled it out. Is that an easy case for them to win, do you think?

KIM WEHLE, FORMER ASSOCIATE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL: I don't think it's an easy case to win, although one thing in their corner is the fact that we saw, after 9/11, some reporting suggesting that this actually hurts national security to not allow this transition.

But, essentially, it would come down to the word apparent, which is the word in the statute that the GSA has to satisfy. Who is the apparent winner, president-elect? And Joe Biden would go in and say, I am, and then we could get into a fight over whether the GSA is correct or not, which is probably not where the Biden campaign wants to go.

And courts would give probably the agency deference in making that determination.

TAPPER: And, Abby, most Republicans seem to be backing this fiction that Trump won.

One senior Republican official told "The Washington Post" -- quote -- "What is the downside for humoring him for this little bit of time? No one seriously thinks the results will change. He went golfing this weekend. It's not like he's plotting how to prevent Joe Biden from taking power on January 20. He's tweeting about filing some lawsuits. Those lawsuits will fail. Then he will tweet some more about how the election was stolen. And then he will leave" -- unquote.

Is that your best gauge as to what you think Republicans are doing, kind of just humoring him to stay in his good graces, but with the expectation that, in a week or so, he will finally get it?

PHILLIP: Well, they're both humoring him and they're using it to gin up the president's base, who they need to win elections.

Now, it's the second part of that I think is the most dangerous, because what you're doing is you're trying to feed some millions of Americans false information, and then hope that they, on January 20, forget all about it and go back to normal life.

That, we know, is not going to happen. I think it's a dangerous game that they are playing. And beyond that, we heard Mitch McConnell even today suggesting that this could go as far as when the Electoral College meets in January.

I mean, maybe it's a few weeks, but it could very well be a few months. And, to Kim's point, it becomes more dangerous the longer the resistance to the transition goes on.

TAPPER: And, Kim, Attorney General Bill Barr has ordered federal prosecutors to look into any allegations of voter fraud. He offered absolutely no proof that the Justice Department has seen any evidence of fraud.

And the Justice Department's top election crimes prosecutor, once Barr issued his memo, he resigned in protest. Is this normal?

WEHLE: No, this is not normal. I think this is just one other step in Bill Barr's sort of disgraceful destruction of the Justice Department as an independent arm of the executive branch.

Look, I -- look, I read that memo. In the next paragraph, it basically says, without evidence, you're not allowed to do anything. And we're seeing these lawsuits across the country being filed, and they're being dismissed by judges, because not only is -- are there are very weak legal claims challenging how the election went in a particular state, but there's no evidence of at all of fraud.

And the difference between a courtroom and a Twitter account is that judges are bound by rules of evidence and rules of civil procedure. They're not going to go forward without actual evidence. And it just does not exist. And the FBI, at this point, doesn't look like it's going to find it either.

But that doesn't mean the American public don't believe, where there's smoke, there's fire. And that's really, I think, the tragedy in this moment, the perception that somehow, by filing a lawsuit, it means there's something wrong.

But I think Americans can sleep well at night knowing we have a fraud- free electoral system, and thousands of people came out on behalf of democracy to make that work on the 3rd.

TAPPER: Abby, today, president-elect Biden was asked about how outgoing President Trump and Republicans are handling his victory. He said it's not critical for them to accept his win. The transition is moving forward without their help. Republicans will eventually recognize him as president.

He really brought the temperature down. What did you make of the tone he struck today?

PHILLIP: Well, everything that I have heard from Biden aides is that they do not want to give oxygen to this idea that there is even a dispute to be engaged with.

They are moving forward as if he is the president-elect, and they are moving forward with their transition. I think the sense inside the Biden campaign, from what I have been hearing, is that, if you start to engage in this idea that there is a battle going on, there is a legal fight going on, you give it more credence.

And, from their perspective and to Kim's point, the courts have already said, in all of these cases so far, there is no evidence, and those cases are not moving forward. So I think that's where the Biden campaign is coming from. And that's what you saw from Joe Biden today.

[16:40:01]

TAPPER: Abby Phillip, Kim Wehle, thank you to both of you. Really appreciate it.

It seems Georgia is on the president's mind, Republicans attacking Republicans, reportedly at the urging of President Trump.

We're going to talk to Georgia's Republican lieutenant governor next.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: In our 2020 lead: President-elect Joe Biden's lead is growing in the historically red state of Georgia, where it looks increasingly as if the state could flip blue.

We're also watching several other key states where votes are still being counted, including Arizona, where president-elect Biden's lead has shrunk ever so slightly today.

CNN political director David Chalian is here to break it all down.

David, what states are we still waiting on?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, you just named the two key ones. So, let's look at Arizona.

[16:45:01]

You noted Biden has a lead now but the lead is now down to 14,468 votes, Jake. You see it's 49.5 percent to 49.0 percent.

The Biden folks are confident they can hang on to this state but, clearly, as more vote has been coming in, Donald Trump has been gaining ground. There are about 60,000 votes outstanding there, Jake.

And then if you take a look in Georgia, we have Joe Biden with a 12,651-vote lead, 49.5 percent to 49.2. This is within that 0.5 percent margin that allows a candidate to ask for a recount and clearly the Trump campaign has indicated they are going to do that and that may be where this is heading, Jake.

But I just want to note the Biden campaign just held a conference call with reporters and their legal team said, on average, since 2000, if you average the recounts together the average shift in vote is between 400 and 500 notes and never seen a recount overturn a lead of 12,751 votes. So -- but that is headed for a recount, Jake.

And then, of course, you have those Senate races in Georgia. David Perdue did not get to 50 percent plus 1, this goes to a runoff, 49.7 percent to 47.9 against Ossoff. And then the other one with Senator Kelly Loeffler. You saw the Democrat Raphael Warnock got 32.9 percent in this initial election. But Loeffler and Collins were splitting that Republican vote, so Loeffler and Warnock go on to the runoff.

Two runoffs, January 5th in Georgia with control of the Senate hanging in the balance, Jake.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: All right. David Chalian, thanks so much.

Meantime, Georgia's Republican Party is at odds in playing the blame game. Senators David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler claiming, without evidence, that Georgia's Republican secretary of state failed to deliver honest and transparent elections.

But Republican Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger is refusing to step down. He says he did nothing wrong and the elections were fine.

Joining us now to discuss, the Republican lieutenant governor of Georgia, Geoff Duncan.

Lieutenant Governor Duncan, thanks so much for joining us.

So, the secretary of state said he will not resign. You have said that you've seen no evidence of voter fraud.

Are you getting pressured to say that there was some kind of fraud or wrongdoing? What -- are you feeling any pressure there?

LT. GOV. GEOFF DUNCAN (R-GA): Well, we continue to be focused on trying to make sure we count every legal vote here in Georgia. We continue to be focused on following the letter of the law as we execute our job of trying to count every legal vote, make sure we identify any sort of improprieties.

Our team has worked very closely with the attorney general's office and with Brad Raffensperger, the secretary of state's office, on making sure we understand there's an opportunity to send information in if you have any sort of specific issues around improprieties or voter fraud.

We -- I know they're working their investigations on those ends. We've not had any sort of substantial instances, get to (INAUDIBLE), but there's still time and I know that they're continuing to work for that going forward.

TAPPER: Does it bother you at all that Perdue and Loeffler are attacking your colleague, the secretary of state, who by all accounts other than theirs did an excellent job with this election?

DUNCAN: Well, I haven't had an opportunity to talk to Senator Perdue or Senator Loeffler. Brad Raffensperger has been a good friend. We actually served together in the House as Republicans for several years and worked together.

He's a rock-solid Republican, but he's actually working hard at his job. He understands the letter of the law and certainly supportive of him continuing to work forward to make sure every single legal vote is counted.

And, Jake, that's the most important thing here, right? This is not party. Just because the person I voted for isn't in the lead right now doesn't mean my job description changes. And, certainly, I'm going to work hard to make sure that every voter in Georgia has confidence that our elections are fair and legal.

TAPPER: Why are Perdue and Loeffler doing this to your friend and colleague? I mean, they're really -- they're really defaming him and smearing him based on nothing.

DUNCAN: Well, I look forward to hearing their information. I certainly don't know where their point of context is. But I know that our team continues to work hard with Brad Raffensperger and with our attorney general, you know?

And certainly, I would encourage everybody here today, and that includes anybody in either campaign, the Biden campaign or the Trump campaign, or any other sort of race, if you know of specific instances, call the secretary of state's office. Get in touch with them immediately.

Certainly, we want to make sure that every election is full of only legal votes. And, certainly, we're going to make sure that's the case here.

And, Jake, it's also interesting to note the letter of the law really here in Georgia I think is, you know, a kind of true representation of how serious we are here. There is an audit that is going to be taking place. There is the opportunity for a recount to happen.

This is all to make sure that we certify a valid legal election, and we're all about doing that here in Georgia.

TAPPER: As a Republican, I know you want Perdue and Loeffler to be re-elected in these runoff elections that are happening in January. If you could put on your partisan hat for one second, are you worried at all that this division and attacking the integrity of the election might ultimately help Ossoff and Warnock win the elections might ultimately help Ossoff and Warnock win these runoff elections given the fact that it might depress Republican turnout?

DUNCAN: So, I'm laser-focused on helping Senator Loeffler and Senator Perdue get reelected, right? No matter who's in the White House, it's important in my opinion as a partisan, as a Republican, as a conservative, to have that fire wall in the Senate regardless of who -- you know, if we want conservative justice, it's important to have a Senate with Republican majority.

If we want to make sure we're able to fire wall off massive tax increases on small business owners, or looking for -- you know, ways to make sure we don't cut resources to law enforcement officers, it's important -- look, I've got two months to work hard to make sure we convince as many folks here in Georgia.

And, look, Jake, I think it's important to note, here in Georgia, we've got all eight constitutional statewide officers are Republicans. Both our state senate and our statehouse are Republican majorities. I'm proud of that. It's important.

We work hard for those folks and we're going to come out in the next two months and work hard for Senator Loeffler and Senator Perdue.

TAPPER: So, President-elect Biden's lead in Georgia is only growing as these final votes are counted. No Democratic presidential nominee has won Georgia since 1992.

Do you think that this attack on your colleague and friend, the secretary of state, is more because people are upset of the result, of the fact that it looks like Biden won Georgia than about anything that might have transpired in the election?

DUNCAN: Yeah, any sort of opinion like that is above my pay grade. I'm laser-focused on the next few days, few weeks delivering a fair legal election process and certainly going to work closely with senator -- Brad Raffensperger and with the attorney general and the governor's office and everybody in between. Also with our colleagues in the state senate and state house to make sure we put our best foot forward throughout this process.

And certainly, I believe Georgians -- 11 million Georgians are going to be proud of our process when this is all certified.

TAPPER: But just yes or no, the election, as far as you know, in Georgia was clean and fair?

DUNCAN: Yeah, so far -- you know, look, we're working hard to make sure that's the case. We continue to hear instances of small issues and certainly, we're going to follow up on that as we move forward.

I know that on my way into the studio, there was a letter that I read that was submitted from this Georgia GOP to Secretary Raffensperger that had some issues that they wanted to be considered and I've only quickly scanned it. But I didn't see any sort of specific instances, just generic ones.

TAPPER: Right.

DUNCAN: But, certainly, Raffensperger -- Brad is going to walk through that list to make sure that he puts our best foot forward. And we apply every single legal opportunity to make sure every candidate, every campaign, every election is followed by the letter of the law.

TAPPER: All right. Lieutenant Governor Geoff Duncan of Georgia, thanks so much for your time today. We appreciate it.

DUNCAN: Yeah.

TAPPER: Obamacare on trial. The Supreme Court up next, a surprising statement from one Trump appointed justice which might mean that Obamacare will stand.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:57:35]

TAPPER: In our politics lead today, the U.S. Supreme Court shows signs they may vote to uphold the Affordable Care Act. Both Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Brett Kavanaugh today hinted that they think Obamacare may legally hold up even if the individual mandate was stripped from it.

CNN's Jessica Schneider joins me now.

And, Jessica, you listened to this hearing today.

What did you make of the justice's comments?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Jake, several of the justices seemed to be skeptical that the entire Affordable Care Act should be struck down. The Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Brett Kavanaugh seemed to be of that mindset. And if that ultimately holds, they could be the two justices who swoop

in to save Obamacare. They both made the point that it didn't seem like Congress intended that the entire ACA should be struck down if one part was ultimately deemed unconstitutional.

And that's exactly the point that Republicans are trying to make. They say because the individual mandate's penalty for not purchasing insurance is now at zero dollars, that it is now a tax, therefore unconstitutional and they say that means the entire act is unconstitutional. But Chief Justice John Roberts said it is not the court's job to strike down the entire law.

So, Jake, we'll see if that holds in this high stakes decision.

TAPPER: And, Jessica, the newest justice, Amy Coney Barrett, she's known for having taken issue previously with the past Supreme Court ruling on Obamacare. What did she have to say today?

SCHNEIDER: Well, she actually seemed to carefully craft her questions here, Jake. She really seemed to be holding her cards close, not giving anything away, but she also questioned whether Congress intentionally passed a part of the law that would kill the entire law. So she seems to be on the side of the Chief Justice and Brett Kavanaugh, but really, millions of Americans, their health care is at stake in this decision.

You know, 20 million people have gained coverage under the ACA. Millions more have benefitted when it comes to preexisting conditions or whether they're still on their insurance, if they're age 26 or younger, their parents' insurance.

But one thing is clear here, Jake. It doesn't seem like the Supreme Court will rush to a decision here. This could come as late as the spring or even early summer before we know what the Supreme Court has decided -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Not until 2021.

All right. Thanks so much, Jessica Schneider, appreciate it.

You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @JakeTapper. You can tweet the show @TheLeadCNN.

Our coverage on CNN continues right now. Have a very meaningful Veterans Day tomorrow.