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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Interview With Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY); U.S. Seeing Record Number of COVID-19 Cases; Growing Alarm as Trump Denies Election Loss. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired November 11, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: And welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Pamela Brown, in today for Jake Tapper.

And we begin with the 2020 lead.

President Trump today making his first public appearance since Joe Biden was declared the winner of the 2020 election, marking this Veterans Day at Arlington National Cemetery, before returning to the White House.

But with President Trump refusing to acknowledge defeat, current and former defense officials are telling CNN that Trump's actions are that of a dictator, and more foreign leaders have now congratulated Biden on his win than Republican senators.

And behind the scenes, the story is no different.

As CNN's Kaitlan Collins reports, President Trump showed no signs he plans to concede in a private meeting with advisers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Trump and president-elect Biden making separate appearances at Veterans Day ceremonies, as the current occupant of the White House is falsely accusing his successor of stealing the election.

Trump stood silently in the rain with no umbrella at Arlington National Cemetery today and did not speak to reporters as he left. With the exception of two trips to the golf course, it was his first appearance in six days. Trump has largely been disengaged from governing since he attempted to discredit the election last Thursday.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If you count the legal votes, I easily win.

COLLINS: Election officials nationwide say they found no evidence to back up the president's claims.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST: What evidence of any widespread fraud have you seen in the count in Philadelphia?

AL SCHMIDT (R), PHILADELPHIA CITY COMMISSIONER: I have not.

COLLINS: The Republican Philadelphia city commissioner told CNN today they looked into viral claims of fraud, including a list claiming dead people had voted.

SCHMIDT: We looked it up, each one of them, to see what their vote history was. Not a single one of them voted in Philadelphia after they died.

COLLINS: Al Schmidt told CNN he was stunned by how people have embraced disinformation.

SCHMIDT: I have seen the most fantastical things on social media, making completely ridiculous allegations that have no basis in fact at all. One thing I can't comprehend is how hungry people are to consume lies.

COLLINS: Moments after saying he looked into fraud allegations, Trump attacked the GOP official on Twitter, calling him a Republican in name only who refused to look into fraud allegations.

With or without Trump, world leaders are embracing the president- elect, while referring to Trump as the -- quote -- "previous president."

BORIS JOHNSON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: I'm delighted to find the many areas in which the Biden -- incoming Biden/Harris administration is able to make common cause with us.

COLLINS: But, as foreign leaders are rushing to greet the new administration, Trump is praising his secretary of state for denying reality.

MIKE POMPEO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: There will be a smooth transition to a second Trump administration.

COLLINS: Trump said that comment is why Mike Pompeo was number one in his class at West Point.

Vice President Mike Pence canceled a vacation to Florida this week after it was publicly reported he was going on a trip as the president is contesting the outcome of the election.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Now, Pam, the president also hasn't taken any questions from reporters since his loss to Joe Biden, and he's had few, if any, meetings on the pandemic.

And, of course, that comes we are now learning today that another person inside the West Wing has tested positive. That's the political affairs director, Brian Jack, who we should note attended that indoor party last Tuesday, the election night party that the White House was having, where hundreds of people attended and very few people were wearing a mask.

BROWN: And that happens within the context of the pandemic surging nationwide right now.

Kaitlan Collins, thank you so much for bringing us the latest there.

And, meantime, today, sources tell CNN the Biden team has adopted a strategy for dealing with President Trump. And that is projecting a sense of calm and inevitability, that even Trump's closest allies will eventually accept a Biden victory.

As CNN's Arlette Saenz reports, the Biden transition team is still not really out legal action, but they believe, for now, at least, that any aggressive actions towards President Trump could backfire.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER (voice-over): In Philadelphia, president-elect Joe Biden and the future first lady laid a wreath, paying respects to the nation's veterans, as President Trump refuses to respect the results of the election.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To our president-elect and first lady, Dr. Jill Biden, if there's anybody that understands what veterans go through, it's this family.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

SAENZ: The president-elect says his commitment to veterans his personal, pointing to his late son Beau's service in Iraq. Biden is promising to "be a commander in chief who respects your sacrifice, understands your service and who will never betray the values you fought so bravely to defend."

While President Trump remains defiant about his loss, Biden is defending his position as president-elect, even without a concession.

[16:05:01]

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT: I just think it's an embarrassment, quite frankly. The only thing that -- how can I say this tactfully? I think it will not help the president's legacy.

SAENZ: Biden has turned to tones of calm and patience, while Trump tries to create turmoil by blocking access to key transition resources and mounting legal challenges.

Biden's top attorneys are dismissing those lawsuits and accusations of fraud as political theater.

With 70 days until his inauguration, Biden is pressing ahead, with top staffing announcements for his West Wing likely coming later this week. Cabinet picks aren't expected until later in the month, aides tells CNN, but the lobbying for positions has already started, including from Bernie Sanders, who is reaching out to union leaders as he's eying the job of labor secretary.

On the world stage, leaders already are eager to work with the president-elect, including on climate change. JOHNSON: I had and have a good relationship with the previous president. But I'm delighted to find the many areas in which the Biden, incoming Biden/Harris administration is able to make common cause with us.

SAENZ: Even though more foreign leaders have congratulated Biden than Senate Republicans, some Republicans are starting to acknowledge the transition should get under way.

SEN. PAT TOOMEY (R-PA): We're on a path it looks likely that Joe Biden is going to be the next president of the United States. It's not 100 percent certain, but it is quite likely. And so I think a transition process ought to begin.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SAENZ: Now, after his brief Veterans Day stop in Pennsylvania, Joe Biden came back home here in Delaware, where he met with transition advisers.

And inside Biden's transition team, his advisers are embracing that same sense of calm as the president-elect, despite these roadblocks from the Trump administration. They acknowledge that, if this continues, down the road, they may need to take a more aggressive approach. But, for now, they feel that could backfire -- Pamela.

BROWN: All right. Arlette, thanks so much for the latest there.

And joining me now is Democratic Senator Kirsten Gillibrand of New York.

Senator, thank you for coming on.

SEN. KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND (D-NY): My pleasure.

BROWN: You just heard Arlette's report there.

I just want to do the contrasting of the team Biden approach here, where they are basically trying to turn down the temperature, saying that he can proceed even without Trump conceding. You have called President Trump's refusal to concede outrageous.

What approach is best here, do you think?

GILLIBRAND: Well, President Trump is just kicking and screaming, like the child he often is.

And while he's entitled to file lawsuits, ask for recounts, the reality is, is that Joe Biden won this election. And the fact that they're unable to have an ascertainment of this election, and not eligible to start the peaceful and critical transition that has gone on efficiently in every other election, is really going to harm the United States.

Joe Biden needs access to national security information. He needs access to information about what's happening in the agencies with regard to the COVID epidemic. He's entitled to resources to begin his transition. And that lack of ascertainment is highly problematic, and something that has not been withheld while lawsuits or recounts have taken place in the past.

BROWN: So, then what do you think about Biden's approach here? He's clearly trying to take the approach of staying calm, cool, collected, and turning down the temperature. Do you think that's the right approach right now?

GILLIBRAND: I do.

BROWN: OK.

GILLIBRAND: I think Joe Biden is taking the exact right approach. The American people know that this election was won by Joe Biden. They expect a seamless transition.

They don't expect a sitting president to hold onto the Oval Office because he thinks it's his right. That's not the America we know. And he's not following the protocols or the norms of a normal election and transition.

BROWN: So, there's obviously the difference between the president outwardly conceding and then letting the transition take place. If the president never concedes -- and people I'm speaking to are saying that's the last thing he will ever do is actually concede -- but they do think he will leave the White House in January.

Is that acceptable to you? Does that give you any reassurance?

GILLIBRAND: Yes, he personally does not need to say any magic words. He personally does not need to concede.

But he has to let the GSA do the ascertainment of who won the election, so that resources can flow to Biden's team, so he can begin to do the analysis and background checks for the 4,000 political appointees he's going to need to appoint in the next several months.

BROWN: What is the plan for Democrats during this period right now, you know, after the election, pre-inauguration?

[16:10:03]

You have a president who is contesting the results of this election. What is the game plan for Democrats? This was not a surprise that the president would be doing this. He forecasted this.

GILLIBRAND: Well, we have our lawyers. We are doing everything that's appropriate in these litigations that the president has filed.

But, politically, we're also all hands on deck in Georgia. We have two Senate races that will go to run-offs in January. And if we win those two races, it shifts the balance of power. And now we would have a governing majority in the U.S. Senate, which means we could then really govern and help Joe Biden put forward his agenda.

BROWN: So let's talk about what we heard from Democratic Senator Chris Coons.

He told CNN he is hearing from Republican colleagues who are privately congratulating Biden. Have you spoken to your Republican colleagues? And what are you hearing from them?

GILLIBRAND: I haven't really spent much time speaking to them. We have had a few votes, but, given COVID, we try to get on the floor, vote and get off as quickly as possible.

So, I really haven't taken their temperature. But I have been deeply disappointed that we only have a handful of Republican colleagues who have actually publicly congratulated Joe Biden, and that we have members of President Trump's administration who are literally saying we're going to transition to a second Trump administration.

That's absurd. And that is so inappropriate, and is creating instability and harm to the U.S.

BROWN: So you're right about COVID obviously making things more difficult. But should Democrats be reaching out more to Republicans and putting the pressure on them to at least acknowledge where things stand right now, and not claim, like what Pompeo -- what Pompeo falsely said yesterday about transitioning to a Trump administration?

Have you -- why aren't you and other Democrats reaching out to Republicans more on this?

GILLIBRAND: Well, I think we will.

I think there's been a little bit of time that was given for whatever face-saving they wanted to do. But now it's become unhelpful, and, frankly, harmful to the United States. Every day that passes without the resources and the ability to talk to agencies, to get top-secret briefings, to work on COVID recovery and COVID relief is a day that harms the American people and our future.

And so we are not in session today. But we will be in session tomorrow. And I intend to talk to all my Republican colleagues about what they can do to push this president to do the right thing and, at a minimum, advocate that the GSA has to have this ascertainment, which allows for resources, millions of dollars of resources, as well as access to flow to the incoming Biden administration.

BROWN: All right, so you intend to do that tomorrow.

I want to end on the note that it is Veterans Day, and you have introduced legislation to allow easier access to care for veterans exposed to pits where toxic waste was burned. Explain for our viewers why that is important. And do you expect progress on this soon?

GILLIBRAND: I do.

It's important because we have millions of veterans who have served since the war on terror began in countries all across the world, including Afghanistan and Pakistan, who have been exposed to some of the worst toxins ever, because they had burn pits in these locations, where they would burn electronics, they would use jet fuel to light it on fire.

And all these toxins not only were seething into the air and the water and the ground, but they were inhaling it. And, unfortunately, these toxins cause horrible disease and cancers. So, we owe it to them. This is the cost of war. We should be making it a presumption that, if you served where a burn pit was open and steaming, that, in fact, you should have presumptive coverage for all these diseases that are known to be linked to exposure to those kinds of chemicals and toxins.

BROWN: Well, as a wife of a veteran, I appreciate your fight on that regard.

Democratic Senator Kirsten Gillibrand of New York, thank you very much.

GILLIBRAND: Thank you.

And our gratitude goes to all our veterans.

BROWN: Absolutely. That is for sure. Thanks so much.

Well, do not go to grandmother's house, a new warning for Thanksgiving, as hospitalizations hit a record in the U.S., the fear that a Joyous holiday could lead to more pandemic misery.

And then, in Georgia, it will announce details of how it will conduct a recount in the presidential race. But could it make a difference?

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:18:38]

BROWN: Well, public health officials across the country are begging Americans to skip the traditional Thanksgiving this year, as more people are currently hospitalized in the United States with COVID-19 than ever before.

Yesterday, the nation saw the highest single day of new cases since the pandemic began, more than 136,000.

And now, as CNN's Athena Jones reports, the CDC is offering new guidance about how to stay safe.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. CARLOS DEL RIO, PROFESSOR OF GLOBAL HEALTH, EMORY UNIVERSITY: I'm just terrified. We are entering a very dark phase in this pandemic.

ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): America setting records no country wants to set, reporting 136,000 new coronavirus cases Tuesday, the most in a single day since the pandemic began, infections on the rise in 45 states, up at least 50 percent in 15 states week over week, with more than 1,400 deaths reported Tuesday. DR. SEEMA YASMIN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Fourteen hundred Americans dying of COVID a day is like three or four planeloads full of Americans crashing and dying. This is unsustainable.

JONES: Nearly 62,000 people are hospitalized with COVID-19 in the U.S., more than ever, Oklahoma reporting only 6 percent capacity in its intensive care units. Just 9 percent of ICU beds are available in Tennessee.

Massachusetts and Illinois governors also concerned.

GOV. CHARLIE BAKER (R-MA): Our biggest concern, of course, is the hospitals risk getting overwhelmed.

[16:20:03]

GOV. J.B. PRITZKER (D-IL): Across the state, the majority of our regions are seeing far higher rates of hospitalizations for COVID-19 than they ever did last spring.

JONES: While every part of the country is seeing explosive growth in cases, the Midwest is outpacing the rest. In Illinois, one of five states that set a record for new cases Tuesday, lines for testing stretched for blocks.

The governor announcing a travel advisory to try to slow the spread, this as Wisconsin's governor issues new stay-at-home rules, and new restrictions on social gatherings are set to take effect Friday in Minnesota.

REP. TIM WALZ (D-MN): The cold winds of November are blowing again. And, unfortunately, the analogy I gave you back in March was that this was going to be a long, dark winter of COVID. And, unfortunately, that has proven true.

JONES: The new restrictions coming as the CDC issued new guidance on masks, saying wearing one protects both the wearer and those around them, reducing the risk of transmitting or catching the virus by more than 70 percent.

The agency saying a 15 percent increase in universal mask-wearing could prevent the need for more lockdowns and save the economy up to a trillion dollars.

YASMIN: Wearing a mask, if all of us do it, can save tens of thousands of lives in the U.S.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JONES: Now, with COVID cases surging in every corner of the country, state leaders and health officials are urging Americans to plan for very different holiday celebrations this year, suggesting people forgo Thanksgiving gatherings, particularly indoors, with people outside your household.

We know that get-togethers with family and friends are a significant source of community spread. And starting Friday here in New York, indoor gatherings at private residences will be limited to 10 people -- Pamela.

BROWN: All right, Athena, thank you so much for bringing us the latest there.

Now let's bring in CNN chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

I mean, first off, to just kind of reset here, Sanjay, this is a five- alarm fire right now with this pandemic and where we are in it. And you have Thanksgiving right around the corner. This is a time where people are desperate for comfort, to be with their loved ones. But the CDC says, look, the safest option, as we heard from Athena, is -- for Thanksgiving is to celebrate only with the people in your household.

Explain what the risk is for Americans still considering small family gatherings.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we have known for some time that, as we looked at the data, that gatherings inside private residences were a big driver of this pandemic.

People sort of took their gatherings inside because of concerns about larger outdoor gatherings. And we saw numbers spike. As the weather's gotten cooler, more and more people are indoors. That's the concern. People will travel. They will get together indoors. It's hard to ventilate. It's hard to wear a mask when you're eating. And those are all prescriptions for an increase in numbers.

We could show you. I mean, as Athena sort of mentioned the low risk vs. medium risk vs. high risk, the lowest risk would be to spend it with your family members of your household, with whom you have been in a bubble. Moderate risk, small outdoors with family and friends.

Highest risk, which is what people typically do, is a large indoor gathering with lots of people outside the household. Look, Pamela, I would love to do that. My parents would love to come here from Florida to visit me and their grandkids.

But we're not -- we're not doing it this year, as we weighed all the various particular concerns.

BROWN: And we're trying to look ahead and project, this is what can happen.

But we already saw what happened in Canada, which celebrated Thanksgiving recently. What can we learn from that?

GUPTA: Yes, it's really interesting.

When you go back and look at the guidance that was being given in Canada prior to Thanksgiving, it mirrors a lot of the guidance that people are getting here in this country, Thanksgiving obviously celebrated middle of October in Canada.

What we saw -- and this is reliable -- is that a few weeks after their Thanksgiving, you saw spikes, as people, they're exposed, and then it takes a couple of weeks to get tested. That's when you start to see the numbers increase.

And, sure enough, they happened. I mean, I think people have the best of intentions, thinking I will just be with my family, whatever. As we have said so many times, Pam, the virus doesn't care. It's so contagious, especially indoors. Think of that virus like a puff of smoke indoors that can travel all over the house.

BROWN: Yes.

And people think they let their guard down, they're with their family. There's a level of trust there. But the virus doesn't care. It knows no bounds.

I want to get to some news we're just getting in on the vaccine front, Moderna just announcing, Sanjay, that they should know by the end of the month whether its COVID-19 vaccine works.

What do you make of that announcement, on top of the Pfizer announcement we have already heard about?

GUPTA: Yes, it's very encouraging.

We sort of knew this was going to be happening. These trials started around the same time. They are similar vaccines in terms of the way that these vaccines work. This is also an mRNA vaccine.

So, it's not surprising at all that we would be starting to think about hearing some data. Of course, we don't know what the data is, Pamela. And Moderna doesn't know what the data is. There's only this independent body known as the Data Safety Monitoring Board, which will call Moderna, call someone from Moderna, and basically say, yes, it's showing X-percent effectiveness.

[16:25:01]

That's how it worked with Pfizer. The CEO got a call this past Sunday, saying it's looking like 90 percent effectiveness against COVID-19.

We will see. But the enthusiasm and expectations are high. And then, of course, all the other questions. Can you distribute it? Can you manufacture enough? What does it mean for the average person?

BROWN: Yes, the logistics here.

And how does that apply to the Pfizer vaccine? I mean, what hurdles does the Pfizer vaccine have to overcome to get to the layperson? Specifically, you deal with the temperature, needing more than one. I mean, what kind of challenges are ahead for that?

GUPTA: It's an incredible challenge.

My colleague Elizabeth Cohen wrote this great piece about it, but it's -- there's so many steps involved. You have to keep it at a certain temperature. When you do decide to thaw -- you got to sort of transport it at these temperatures, which is hard enough.

When you do decide to finally thaw and dilute it, you have only a certain window at which time the vaccine has to be given. The patient has got to be in place. Syringes have to be ready. Shots go into arms. Got to do this twice, potentially, for hundreds of millions of people in the United States, billions of people around the world, and possibly yearly, Pamela.

What I'm describing may take an entire sector of our society to do on a regular basis to have that regular sort of vaccination program for adults all over the world, hopefully, children eventually, but starting off with adults. It's going to be enormous.

BROWN: And until we get to that point, we have masks, right, as one of our best layers of defense.

Now we're told by the CDC that mask and protect both the wearer and the people around the person wearing the mask. So which kinds of masks offer the best protection?

GUPTA: Well, it's interesting.

So, first of all, the CDC did change their guidelines. And I think people kind of knew this, that, if you wore a mask, it was probably going to give you some level of protection. This is one that my daughter made me, Pamela. It's a three-layer cloth mask. Works pretty well.

BROWN: Can she send me one, please?

GUPTA: About 75 percent -- yes. You know what? Give -- if you send me your address, I will get you one.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: OK.

GUPTA: These are surgical masks. A lot of people recognize these. These have higher filtration. They get the loops that go around the ears.

When we wear them in the operating room, we tie it, because that gives you a snugger fit. Fit, the thickness of the mask overall, important.

Now, this is the mask that a lot of people have been talking about, the N95 mask. And, Pamela, it's got better filtration. So it's going to be better. But one of the things about this mask is that it fits really well, but also has an electrostatic charge in here.

Think of that like your blanket catching a bunch of socks in the dryer. It's not just the pore size, but that electrostatic charge also helps grab virus and other pathogens and protects you from that as well.

So, this is sort of the gold standard. But any of these masks are really beneficial, again, for the wearer, and for the person around the wearer.

BROWN: Yes, it is.

When that came out, I thought -- I thought we knew that it helps -- it also protects a person wearing it. But I think this is just more studies that were done to back up what we already sort of knew.

GUPTA: That's right.

BROWN: Before I let you go, I want to talk about the numbers we're seeing with the pandemic. We are seeing record number cases and hospitalizations at a time when most Americans are experiencing COVID fatigue or feeling hopeful that a vaccine is right around the corner.

I'm just wondering, as you look ahead, Sanjay, we look at the numbers from a month ago and where we are now, what do the numbers right now tell us about what we're going to experience a month from now, given the trickle effect that happens?

GUPTA: Well, I mean, if you look at the hospitalizations, Pamela -- and that's a number that I think is the truest, most consistent measure of what's happening with this pandemic and also the most actionable.

Hospitals are getting full. You know that. You see that it affects communities. But we know that hospitalizations are at the highest now throughout this entire pandemic, over 60,000 people in the hospital.

Hospitals are becoming overloaded. But keep in mind, Pamela, what do 60,000 hospitalizations represent? It represents something that happened four to five weeks ago. It happened, exposures, four to five weeks ago, OK?

So if you look at the fact that the numbers are much higher -- and back then, it was sort of 45,000 50,000 people becoming infected. Now it's much higher, double, triple that number, getting close to. That means, four to five weeks from now, the hospitalizations are going to go up significantly more.

So, that's the lag time that you sort of talk about. This is a fast- moving cruise liner going through the ocean right now with lots of inertia, lots of speed. Even if you slammed on the brakes right now, it would still be cruising for a while.

So, what -- I talked to a bunch of modelers over the weekend. The numbers are going to continue to go up, likely get to a peak sort of end of January, early February, and then hopefully come down quickly.

Our actions now may not change the peak as much as how quickly we come down off the backside of that curve. So, it really matters. And we know how much masks can make a difference.

I mean, hopefully, that message has been heard over and over again, because, until the vaccine, and even after the vaccine for a period of time, it's our best bet. BROWN: Yes, I mean, tens of thousands of lives at least could be

saved just by simply wearing a mask. It's not just for you. It's for others around you.

And, like I said at the beginning of the segment, we're in a five- alarm fire right now.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you so much.

GUPTA: You got it. Thank you.

BROWN: Well, President Trump's baseless claims of widespread voter fraud take another embarrassing hit, as he digs in deeper.

[16:30:00]