Return to Transcripts main page

The Lead with Jake Tapper

Focus on Georgia Senate Run-Offs; Votes Still Being Counted in Several States. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired November 11, 2020 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:30:01]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Well, President Trump's baseless claims of widespread voter fraud take another embarrassing hit, as he digs in deeper.

That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, today, CNN is projecting President Trump will win the state of Alaska and its three electoral votes. And ballots are still being counted in a few other states where CNN has yet to project a winner.

[16:35:01]

CNN political director David Chalian joins me now for more on this.

So, David, where is the most crucial, outstanding vote right now?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: There are three states that we haven't projected yet, Pam.

One of them is here in North Carolina. Donald Trump has a big lead, 73,276 votes ahead of Joe Biden. Tomorrow is the deadline in which North Carolina can receive votes that were cast and postmarked by Election Day. But they had until tomorrow to be received and still counted.

So, hopefully, we will get more of a vote count there. And that may be projectable in Donald Trump's favor, of course. In Arizona, that hasn't been called yet. Joe Biden has a 12,813-vote lead. That's a lead that's been shrinking since last week, 49.4 percent to 49 percent.

But the Biden folks are pretty confident they're going to hang on to Arizona, and that that will eventually be in their column.

And then, finally, Georgia, where we know there's going to be a statewide recount now, 49.5 percent to 49.2 percent. Joe Biden's lead is now up to 14,093 votes, Pam. I don't think I have ever seen a recount overturn a lead that big.

BROWN: All right, that's so interesting.

And really quick, on Arizona, the amount of ballots left is more than the margin, right? But Biden's team still thinks he's going to pull it off?

CHALIAN: Given where those -- I think it's roughly about 50,000 ballots left. Given where they're from, they think that they are going to be able to hang on to their lead in Arizona.

But that's why it's not projected yet. We will wait to see how those votes--

BROWN: Yes. But we're not projecting it.

CHALIAN: Exactly.

(LAUGHTER)

CHALIAN: We will wait to see how they come in.

And I just want to note, Pam, here the national popular vote, I mean, just look at this right now, Joe Biden's 77 million votes to Donald Trump's 72 million. He has more than a five million vote lead nationally over the president.

I know we don't pick our presidents this way. We use the Electoral College. But that is a pretty big deal. And 50.8 percent, that's the highest percentage that a challenger to an incumbent president has gotten in the national popular vote since FDR in 1932.

BROWN: That's remarkable and important you pointed that out. Thanks so much, David Chalian.

CHALIAN: Sure.

BROWN: And joining me now to discuss all of this is Franita Tolson. She is vice dean at USC Law School and a CNN election law analyst.

Thanks for coming on, Franita.

So, "The New York Times" spoke to top election officials in almost every single state, and they saw very few, if any, cases of voting irregularities. You have reviewed what the campaign has set forth in making the case about fraud in this election. What does it tell you?

FRANITA TOLSON, CNN ELECTION LAW ANALYST: It actually doesn't tell us much.

The campaign is still not coming forward with a lot of evidence that there were election irregularities, particularly irregularities that would change the outcome of this race.

So, in cases filed in Michigan and Pennsylvania this week, for example, you see a lot of the same claims that we saw in prior litigation, so this idea that illegal ballots were counted, and that poll workers committed various errors by changing the dates on ballots, or counting Trump votes for Biden, also the allegation that their challengers didn't get meaningful access to the process, and that their challengers challenged certain ballots, but those ballots were nonetheless counted.

So, many of the same claims, but not much evidence to back them up. There's really no evidence of widespread fraud, no evidence of dead people voting, which is another claim that was made this week. And the courts have been generally good about dismissing this litigation when there's no evidence.

So I would say that the system is still working.

BROWN: Yes, let's dig a little bit deeper into that. I was just reading through the Michigan lawsuit that the campaign just filed. And there are affidavits included from some of their poll volunteers, their poll observers, that was basically like one poll watcher we interviewed said they believed that ballots that were for Donald Trump were put aside and that kind of thing.

Would that sort of -- would that hold up in the court of law? And is the fact that it was filed so many days after Election Day, does that -- is that a strike against the campaign?

TOLSON: Well, I do think that a court will take that into consideration.

But you have to think about the potential remedies here. Even if that's true, that doesn't necessarily mean that that changes the margin between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. So, for example, in Wayne County, 412,000 Democratic voters cast ballots. And that's compared to 143,000 Republicans.

So imagine the number you would have to shift in order for that to change the nature of this race, right? I think, in Michigan, Joe Biden's up by something like almost 150,000 votes, right?

So, a court is likely to look at everything in its totality, right? So they will look at the allegations made by the campaign, but I think the court will want to see more hard evidence that there's actual wrongdoing.

Then, on top of that, in terms of a remedy, it's unlikely that there's that type of systemic wrongdoing that would give Donald Trump another 150,000 votes and make a difference in the outcome of this race.

BROWN: And so you don't think that any of these lawsuits could change the outcome, but what about running out the clock to help Trump, when you look at the dates where they have to have electors by and so forth?

Do you see that as part of the strategy?

[16:40:01]

TOLSON: I do think that that's part of the strategy.

I don't really see this as a legal dispute. It's more of a political one, right? It's undeniable that, given their track record in court, the Trump campaign knows that these cases are losers. But it does feed into a certain narrative, right?

If they can create doubt around the election, and if they can call into question the outcome, then perhaps Republican state legislators will be on board with trying to appoint a slate of electors, in contravention of the outcome of the vote totals, right?

So, in Pennsylvania, for example, this was floated in the weeks before the election. But there's this idea that, if the state legislature, which they have put forward -- at least some of the state legislators have put forward this idea of auditing the election results themselves, and then determining from that what the slate should be, right?

And, presumably, it would be a slate in favor of Donald Trump, right? So, I do think he's playing this political game where he's trying to change the narrative, undermine the election results, so that Republican state legislatures can step in and appoint a new slate of electors.

But even, then, that's unlikely to happen. I want to emphasize that for your viewers. I don't want anybody to panic, right, because there's a process.

BROWN: Right, because that could really cause a lot of issues.

TOLSON: Right.

Congress still has to count the votes. Yes, Congress counts the vote. And Congress determines the validity of any slates. And so, even then, it's still a Hail Mary pass.

BROWN: I just want to also ask this last question to kind of wrap this up.

Look, it is true that, in every election, there are voting irregularities. There are examples of alleged fraud. That is true. And that is not what -- you are not saying that that didn't -- that doesn't exist at all.

But you're saying that there is no evidence of widespread fraud or systemic fraud that could actually tip the scales, right?

TOLSON: No. Right.

So, and this was a risk going into this election cycle. I think every election administrator realized that any mistake that they make, any error that they make could be -- could become a cause of action in some litigation, right? That's always a possibility.

But it was -- the stakes were particularly high this time, because we had north of 150 million people participate in this in this election. So, of course, mistakes will be made. Mistakes are made in every election.

But every mistake does not turn into widespread fraud.

BROWN: But also, just to be clear, as we wrap up, the Trump campaign had put out, what, their army of 50,000 poll observers. I mean, they sent out their people. And everyone was really on high alert for this election, given all the allegations made even before the election.

And so I think that that is also important context too, as we consider everything that's being put out there.

All right, Franita Tolson, thank you very much.

TOLSON: Thank you.

BROWN: Well, two run-off races that will decide control of the Senate have Republicans crossing the Florida-Georgia line.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:47:13]

BROWN: Turning to our 2020 lead now.

Republican Senator Marco Rubio of Florida is joining the fight for Republicans to keep two Georgia Senate seats and their majority, Rubio campaigning in a packed windowless room where, as you can see, many were not wearing masks today, for Georgia Senators Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue. They are baselessly blaming Georgia's Republican secretary of state for their elections heading to run-offs.

CNN's Kyung Lah looks at how the messy infighting in Georgia's Republican Party could better Democrats chances at controlling the Senate and flipping Georgia blue.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. KELLY LOEFFLER (R-GA): It's all on the line. All eyes in this country are on Georgia. We are going to save the country.

KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Control of the U.S. senate comes down to two Senate run-offs in Georgia.

Two incumbent Republican senators, Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue, are rallying their base, in part by attacking a member of their own party, the Republican secretary of state in charge of the election. The senators are calling on Brad Raffensperger to resign, questioning the legitimacy of the results, without offering any specific evidence to support their claims.

BRAD RAFFENSPERGER, GEORGIA SECRETARY OF STATE: If you report it, we will investigate it. Every legal vote will count.

LAH: Raffensperger fired back, saying he will not resign, but today announced a hand recount of the nearly five million ballots in the presidential race in the state, where Joe Biden currently leads by more than 14,000 votes.

RAFFENSPERGER: With the margin being so close, it will require a full by-hand recount in each county. This will help build confidence. It will be an audit, a recount and a recanvass.

LAH: Georgia's leading paper condemned the senators' efforts to muddy the state's election results, slamming them as "baseless accusations, reckless and a risky sideshow."

Senator Loeffler's the Democratic challenger, Reverend Raphael Warnock, jumped on the editorial, saying: "Loeffler intentionally seeks to erode trust in our democracy for her own political benefit."

JON OSSOFF (D), GEORGIA SENATORIAL CANDIDATE: Thank you all.

LAH: And Senator Perdue's opponent, Democrat Jon Ossoff, also seized on the Republican infighting, calling it a distraction.

OSSOFF: They're fighting amongst themselves over the election results, but the people have spoken.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): This is literally the showdown of all showdowns in terms of politics.

LAH: Back at the crowded indoor Republican rally, Florida Senator Marco Rubio traveled in to stump for his Georgia colleagues, bolstering their message of distrust.

RUBIO: I don't think politicians, I don't think the media enjoy the credibility any longer to tell people what to believe about these things.

LAH: Turn to the crowd, many not wearing masks, and, despite no evidence of widespread voting fraud, supporters say they don't trust the system worked.

[16:50:08]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think there's something terrible. They got to -- this is the tip of the iceberg.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAH: Now, shortly after we completed that interview, the room became very full. People were standing shoulder to shoulder.

Many were not wearing masks. There were no windows in that room, no ventilation that anyone on my team could actually feel.

So, what we did is, we put a live camera rolling in the back of the room, and for the safety of the CNN crew, we all left and we left the gear there to track what was happening, but, physically, we were not in that room.

We should point out that the White House coronavirus task team, Pamela, did move Georgia into the red category. That is the most severe category for spread of the virus -- Pam.

BROWN: There are just no words for that.

All right, Kyung Lah, thank you so much for bringing us the latest there. We appreciate it.

And Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger will join CNN in just minutes. So, you won't want to miss that.

Plus, President Trump is visiting Arlington National Cemetery on this Veterans Day, as a defense official accuses him of -- quote -- "dictator moves."

How dangerous his final days in office could be, with loyalists running the Pentagon.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:56:00]

BROWN: Well, as President Trump refuses to accept the election results, he's also firing several other top defense officials, replacing them with political loyalists.

One defense official called it scary and unsettling and said these are -- quote -- "dictator moves" on this Veterans Day.

CNN's Barbara Starr takes a look at President Trump's complicated relationship with the military as commander in chief.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Trump paying a visit to the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier to mark Veterans Day, as question swirl about how his relationship with the Pentagon could change over the next 70 days.

Since Joe Biden was projected to win the presidency on Saturday, President Trump has installed his own loyalists at the top levels of the Defense Department, the move leading to rising anxiety at the Pentagon about what still may come next, after years of the military trying to stay out of Trump world.

ERIC EDELMAN, FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT AND DEFENSE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: The president has consistently referred to "my generals" and treated the military as if it was an institution that was personally loyal to him and his political needs, as opposed to loyal to the Constitution.

STARR: The former director of national intelligence says it's all a security risk.

JAMES CLAPPER, FORMER U.S. NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE DIRECTOR: When you have the turnover and the purging and then the installation of a network of essentially political commissars, this is a real distraction from the nerve center of our national defense. STARR: Some Pentagon officials privately worry Trump could even be

thinking about replacing top military officers. General Mark Milley, chairman of the Joint Chiefs, is confirmed by the Senate to a term that ends in 2023, which keeps him in office as president-elect Biden's military adviser.

Even before the election, Milley was adamant that the military would continue to stay out of politics. As chairman, Milley serves at the pleasure of the president, but the two men have clashed.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm not saying the military is in love with me. The soldiers are. The top people in the Pentagon probably aren't, because they want to do nothing but fight wars, so that all of those wonderful companies that make the bombs and make the planes and make everything else stay happy.

STARR: Milley was furious even at the suggestion of warmongering and called Chief of Staff Mark Meadows.

And when Trump had Milley joined the political theater of the June walk outside the White House during protests, the chairman publicly apologized.

GEN. MARK MILLEY, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: I should not have been there. My presence in that moment and in that environment created a perception of the military involved in domestic politics.

STARR: Clashes between the president and the Pentagon include opposing Trump's threat to put active-duty forces on the streets against protesters last June, Trump forcing the retirement of Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman after he testified before Congress in Trump's impeachment inquiry, multiple sources telling "The Atlantic" magazine President Trump called Americans who lost their lives in battle -- quote -- "losers and suckers," and still unresolved, the Pentagon's determination to rename military bases now named after Confederate commanders.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STARR: Another Trump loyalists has been installed at the Pentagon, a retired colonel named Douglas Macgregor. Macgregor advocates rapidly pulling all U.S. troops out of Afghanistan, something the president wants, something his military advisers say is a bad idea -- Pamela.

BROWN: All right, Barbara Starr, thank you for that.

And, finally, we'd like to remember just one of the lives lost from the pandemic.

Horace Salisbury (ph) was a 59-year-old Memphis native, grandpa, and CNN super fan. His niece Kenya (ph) says he especially enjoyed watching Dr. Fauci and Don Lemon. When the Cowboys played, he would crank up the volume and insist everyone under his roof cheer for his team.

His family says he was rushed to the hospital with a high fever, but sent home after it calmed down. He died alone in his home three days later.

Horace Salisbury leaves behind his daughters and five grandkids.

I'm Pamela Brown, in for Jake Tapper.

Our coverage on CNN continues now.