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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump Issues Full Pardon to Michael Flynn; Biden Delivers Thanksgiving Address. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired November 25, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:04]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Yes, Robi, thank you so much, Robi Ludwig on all that's important here as we get through the holidays.

Happy early Thanksgiving to you, and thank you for being here. I will see you tomorrow.

"THE LEAD" starts right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: And welcome to the lead. I'm Pamela Brown, in for Jake Tapper today.

And we start with breaking news in our 2020 lead. Moments ago, president-elect Joe Biden delivered a Thanksgiving address designed to appeal to Americans' sense of patriotism, calling on the country to unite in the face of a deadly pandemic.

Biden acknowledged deep divisions, but urged Americans to fight the virus, not each other.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT: We don't talk much about love in our politics. The political arena is too loud, too angry, too heated.

To love our neighbor as ourselves is a radical act. It's what we're called to do. We must try.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Speaking in Delaware there, the president-elect also issued an urgent plea, saying now is the time to buckle down to get this coronavirus under control.

He said life would return to normal at some point, but he urged people not to give in to COVID fatigue. He promised on day one of his presidency to change the course of the virus, with more testing, expanded contact tracing, and new guidance for keeping schools and business open.

At almost the exact same time, President Trump continued to deny reality. He phoned in to an event with Pennsylvania Republicans and spewed false claims about a rigged election and massive voter fraud.

But Trump's failure to accept reality isn't stopping the Biden team from meeting with the current administration's top health officials today, as CNN's M.J. Lee reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BIDEN: America is not going to lose this war. We will get our lives back.

M.J. LEE, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President-elect Joe Biden sharing a Thanksgiving message with the nation on Wednesday.

BIDEN: I know that this time of year can be especially difficult. Believe me, I know. I remember that first Thanksgiving, the empty chair, the silence. It takes your breath away. It's really hard to care. It's hard to give thanks. It's hard to even think of looking forward. And it's so hard to hope. I understand.

LEE: Speaking from Wilmington, Delaware, Biden discussing the sacrifices Americans are making, as coronavirus cases surge across the country.

BIDEN: We fought nearly a year-long battle with a virus that has devastated this nation. It's brought us pain and loss and frustration. And it's cost so many lives.

But we need to remember we're at war with the virus, not with one another, not with each other. This is the moment where we need to steal our spines, redouble our efforts and recommit ourselves to the fight.

LEE: The Biden transition team announcing Biden will receive his first presidential daily briefing since becoming president-elect on Monday.

JEN PSAKI, BIDEN TRANSITION ADVISER: We're working with DNI in the White House on the president-elect and vice president-elect receiving the PDB.

LEE: The former vice president also preparing to announce some members of his economic team next week, Biden expected to nominate former Federal Reserve Chairwoman Janet Yellen as his Treasury secretary.

Biden insisting that, as he builds out his administration, a major focus will be bridging political divides across the country.

BIDEN: The purpose of our administration is once again reuniting. We can't keep this virulent political dialogue going. It has to end.

LEE: Every move from Biden and his transition team seeming designed to draw stark contrasts to President Trump. Biden's transition team receiving briefings on everything from vaccine distribution, testing and PPE supply chains. (END VIDEOTAPE)

LEE: Now, this is obviously going to be such an unusual and tough holiday season for so many Americans, Pam, and Biden saying this afternoon that his family is no exception.

Usually, he will travel out of state to get together for a big family get-together. He says, this week, he is going to be staying back behind here in Delaware for a very small family gathering instead -- Pam.

BROWN: All right, M.J. Lee, thank you so much for that.

And as Joe Biden tries to strike his new presidential tone, President Trump is pushing a message of defiance. He's making his case on speakerphone to -- here to Pennsylvania Republicans. He led Rudy Giuliani lead the legal sideshow in person, but not in court or even at the state capitol, but instead at a hotel, as CNN's Jeremy Diamond reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As Americans brace for the surging pandemic to collide with Thanksgiving, President Trump remains focused on attacking the integrity of the election he lost.

While the incoming president urged caution, the current president once again abdicating leadership at a critical time, silent about the pandemic, while shouting on Twitter about the rigged election that wasn't and insisting 2020 is a long way from over.

[16:05:15]

It was an abridged version of the P.R. stunt Trump was planning today in Pennsylvania with his attorney Rudy Giuliani, where Republican state senators held an event to hype up voter fraud claims, just one day after the commonwealth certified the election and after judges dismissed lawsuits alleging widespread voter fraud.

Trump canceled his trip after campaign adviser Boris Epshteyn, seen here with Giuliani just six days ago, tested positive. Giuliani walked right into the crowded event today, in defiance of CDC quarantine guidelines, and began spreading misinformation, and maybe more.

RUDY GIULIANI, ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I know crooks really well. You give them an inch, and they take a mile. And you give them a mile, and they take your whole country.

DIAMOND: But the president just couldn't stay away, calling in with more false claims.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This election was rigged, and we can't let that happen. We can't let it happen for our country. And this election has to be turned around, because we won Pennsylvania by a lot and we won all of these swing states by a lot. DIAMOND: Trump is also starting to think about end-of-presidency

pardons, sources telling CNN a pardon for Trump's first national security adviser, Michael Flynn, who pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI, is under consideration.

Discussions have also centered on Paul Manafort and George Papadopoulos, two other targets of special counsel Robert Mueller.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DIAMOND: The president's speakerphone remarks at that hearing lasted about 10 minutes, Pam, and we heard the usual garden variety of lies, conspiracy theories and misinformation about the 2020 election.

But we also heard a sitting U.S. president say that he -- repeatedly say that he wanted to overturn the results of the 2020 election. Three weeks after millions of Americans went to the polls to exercise their right to vote, after his court cases have been tossed out of one court after the next, we heard President Trump repeatedly say -- quote -- "We have to turn the election over" -- Pam.

BROWN: What a striking contrast to president-elect Biden celebrating democracy in his speech the day before Thanksgiving.

Thanks so much, Jeremy Diamond. We appreciate it.

So, let's talk about all of this.

Jackie, I'm going to start with you. We also have Toluse joining us.

The president-elect, as I just said, he talked about democracy. He talked about unity, prayer and love. He quoted scripture. He mentioned God. What was your takeaway?

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I mean, the speech seemed to have three very distinct parts, acknowledging the grief that Americans are feeling, whether they have lost someone, whether they're away from someone this holiday, in the middle, really telling people that they need to hold on and gird for the months ahead, and not to stop doing what they're doing to keep themselves safe.

And then the end was this aspirational message, really telling people that better days are ahead.

This is very much a reflection and consistent with what Biden was saying during the campaign and I imagine what he will do as president. I mean, you had part coach, part priest, part motivational speaker. You had Joe Biden today.

BROWN: And this was -- I mean, just for context, Jackie, I mean, this is what you would expect, right, from a president-elect.

KUCINICH: It is jarring in its normalcy, for sure.

BROWN: Jarring in its normalcy, that is a great way to put it. But it is -- of course, it does stand in contrast to the president,

and even today with him calling into that event. I'm going to get to that in just a moment.

But I first want to talk about how the president-elect personalized this, Toluse. He talked about how he normally has a big family gathering, and this year they aren't doing it. He talked about the empty chairs for so many families who have lost loved ones, and that he knows how that feels.

What stuck out to you?

TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, the very stark contrast between the current president and the incoming president in how they're approaching leveling with the American people about this virus, that you had president-elect Biden essentially saying, I normally have a big family gathering, and I know many of you would want to do that, but we have to make some changes because we are in the middle of a pandemic that has killed so many thousands of Americans.

And you have the contrast with President Trump, who has spent the last several months defying his own government's guidelines, holding big super-spreader events, gathering people at the White House, even on the night of the election, despite the fact that he himself had caught the virus, many people within his orbit have caught the virus.

So, there's a very stark contrast between president-elect Biden trying to show good public policy and good public health guidelines and trying to embrace those in the way that he conducts himself, and President Trump essentially saying, don't follow my example, don't follow the example of my government, which says that everyone should be avoiding travel and not gathering in big groups.

And it's very clear that there's going to be a very different type of government come January 20. And president-elect Biden wanted to show that (AUDIO GAP)

[16:10:02]

BROWN: All right. And you talk about the stark contrast.

It's really symbolic, Jackie, in many ways of how divided this country is, right? I mean, this is a divided country. Joe Biden talked about that. And he was very sort of optimistic about the future, talking about how we can all come together, there is still hope.

But is there? I mean, is that realistic for Joe Biden to think that? How is he going to bring this country together realistically?

KUCINICH: That's an excellent question. I don't know that we know the answer to that. But we know that Joe Biden has said repeatedly, both on the campaign trail and after he's won, that he's going to try, and not only with Republicans, but within his own party.

We have seen that with some of the Cabinet picks that have been announced. They seem to be pretty noncontroversial. Not a lot of people both on the left and the right are terribly upset about them or speaking out as of yet.

So that governing from the center-left, that is sort of what Joe Biden has pitched himself as. And -- but whether that -- I think healing the nation, that's going to take a while. This isn't something that's going to be a quick fix.

BROWN: All right, thank you so much.

And we just actually have some breaking news coming in. As you're talking there, Jackie, President Trump just announced on Twitter that he has issued a full pardon for his former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn. Flynn was convicted after special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation for lying to the FBI.

Then the DOJ stepped in. It was really a remarkable turn of events.

Jeremy Diamond, I want to bring you in, because, as we know, this was expected. The president has long felt like his allies got into trouble with the FBI because of their association with him. We know there have been discussions under way in the White House to pardon Michael Flynn.

And now it's happened, according to the president's tweet.

DIAMOND: Yes, that's right, Pam.

And I think you can expect that this will just be the first of several pardons that the president is likely to issue in the final days and weeks of his presidency. But, certainly, this is one that has been long discussed inside the White House the president has been considering for a long time.

And now, obviously, that he knows that he will not be president in about 60 days, this is the moment for him to do this, pardoning National Security -- former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn, who was only national security adviser for a few weeks, before he was fired for lying to the vice president of the United States about his contacts with the Russians during the transition back in 2017.

And -- or those contacts happened in 2016. And then he later pleaded guilty to the FBI in 2017 in relation to those same contacts. And, somehow, Michael Flynn ultimately decided to try and retract that guilty plea.

The Justice Department also recently intervened and tried to dismiss this case after that guilty plea had already been filed. And now there is kind of a legal limbo or there has been a legal limbo about whether or not Michael Flynn would ultimately be sentenced by a judge.

But now that is all out the window, as President Trump announces that he has issued a full and complete pardon to Michael Flynn, who we should note has been represented most recently by Sidney Powell, that controversial attorney and conspiracy theorist who was on the president's legal team until just last weekend, when Rudy Giuliani and Jenna Ellis, the president's attorneys, started to distance themselves from her.

BROWN: Yes, it's kind of interesting too, Jeremy, because Sidney Powell had actually asked the president a while back to not pardon her client Michael Flynn as this was going through the courts.

I think there was some hope that his case would be dropped, with DOJ intervening on his behalf. And, as you point out just recently, the president and his legal team distanced themselves from Sidney Powell. Now this pardon is happening.

We know, Jeremy, after covering this administration for the last several years, that the president likes to exercise his pardon power. He often talks about it with aides, learning about it. He has even asked if he can pardon himself, pardon his family. It's something that he's very interested in.

And like you sort of alluded to early on, this could just be the beginning of pardons before his term ends not long from now. We know he's been eying other people in his orbit, such as George Papadopoulos and Paul Manafort.

DIAMOND: That's right.

And I think that another name you have to keep in mind as the president mulls of these potential pardons is Robert Mueller, because Robert Mueller carried out a lot of these investigations that led to certain convictions or guilty pleas from a number of the president's associates.

We know how the president feels about the Mueller investigation. And so, obviously, as he is issuing these pardons, certainly, as he is issuing the Flynn pardon, he likely has the name Robert Mueller in mind as well.

This isn't just rewarding his allies, but perhaps also undoing some of the work that resulted from that Mueller investigation, which dogged his presidency for such a long time, and perhaps this is also the president's way of getting back at him for that.

[16:15:03]

BROWN: Absolutely, it is.

Jeremy Diamond, thank you so much.

Let's go back to Toluse and Jackie for more on all of this.

First of all, Toluse, your reaction?

OLORUNNIPA: Well, it is a sign that the president realizes that his days are numbered, his days in office, his ability to have the kind of power that is given to the president to pardon people. He's going to lose that power very soon.

And he's going to use as much of it as possible, even though it's a very controversial pardon to essentially clear the slate of a national security adviser who admitted he had lied to the FBI.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are more pardons and if there is more punishment. The president also likes to mete out punishment on his enemies. And there are people within his own government that he (AUDIO GAP) are enemies, whether it's the FBI director or the CIA director.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are more (AUDIO GAP) president who sees himself with his days sort of running out lashes out against people who he thinks undermined him during the last four years.

BROWN: Yes, that is really the key here, Jackie, his days running out. This could be the first of many pardons we see from Donald Trump in the weeks ahead.

KUCINICH: Yes, is pardoning with dynamite a thing? Because I feel like that is what we're going to see in the next couple weeks.

But Jeremy really hit the nail on the head. Anything that has to do with the Russia investigation, it seems like the president will try to wipe away. He had said it was the witch-hunt. And he has said that from the onset of the investigation.

With Flynn, I mean, I think the only thing that was surprising about that particular pardon is that he waited while the sun was still up, when you don't really do things the Wednesday before Thanksgiving if you're -- the timing is definitely in line with what the president has done in the past too, perhaps when people aren't paying the closest attention to the news.

But this is going -- this is just the beginning. You're absolutely right.

BROWN: Right. And, as we talked about, this is a president, Toluse, who -- look, he's exercising the authority bestowed to him by the Constitution, and it's something that he has shown a great interest in throughout his administration.

Just put that into context for us, as we're just now learning that his former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn has been pardoned. As you pointed out, he had pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI.

But, in context, what does this show?

OLORUNNIPA: Well, it shows what we have seen for the past four years, a president who is willing to take very controversial steps and sometimes very ethically questionable steps in using the powers that he has, and not really following the norms of a past president, just really trying to color within the lines of what's legal in many cases.

And it's very legal. There's nothing illegal about pardoning of a former official who (AUDIO GAP) but it's not necessarily something that you would have seen from most past presidents, given all of the controversy surrounding Michael Flynn, the fact that he was in contact with the Russians before Trump took office, and he is one of the many people in the Trump orbit who had multiple relationships with Russian officials. And it shows that President Trump is still very unhappy that his

campaign and his election continue to be tainted by the Russia story. He was in part -- impeached in part due to his attempt to cover up the Russia story by making these allegations that Ukraine and Biden were in cahoots.

So, it's pretty clear that this is an issue that has really overwhelmed much of the Trump presidency, and it will (AUDIO GAP)

BROWN: Yes.

OLORUNNIPA: (AUDIO GAP) days of the presidency as well.

BROWN: OK, thank you so much, Toluse and Jackie. Really appreciate it.

Joining me now is former U.S. -- assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York Elie Honig.

Elie, great to see you.

So, let's just again set the stage here. Michael Flynn is the president's former national security adviser. The FBI was able to listen to a phone call where he was speaking to the then ambassador to Russia talking about sanctions during the transition four years ago, of course.

He lied to the -- he admitted to lying to the FBI about those discussions. He had also lied to other people in the White House about it, including the vice president. He was eventually fired by the president.

Fast-forward to today, and he has now been pardoned by the president, Elie. Put this in perspective for us.

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Pam, so I think we all saw this coming, as Toluse just said.

And there's nothing illegal, necessarily, about it. But let's not lose sight of just what a wild abuse of power this is by the president. As you just said, Pam, Michael Flynn was convicted of lying to the FBI about his communications with Russia on sensitive issues about four years ago right now, during the Trump transition.

That is a big deal. And let's remember, important thing here, Michael Flynn was cooperating with Robert Mueller successfully. Robert Mueller said on record that Michael Flynn was providing information on multiple ongoing criminal investigations, until he stopped cooperating, which is a very rare thing.

[16:20:97]

I can tell you, as a prosecutor, once someone starts cooperating, if they bail out, they do that at their own risk, unless Michael Flynn knew or believed that he had something coming to him that would save him. Remember, Bill Barr's DOJ tried to bail Michael Flynn out. They tried

to pull back that conviction, which was an unprecedented move. And, today, we see, I think, the natural culmination of this whole process, Donald Trump sort of delivering Michael Flynn what I think he's known has been coming to him for a long time.

BROWN: So, just to be clear, do you think that he had been told prior to this, you're going to get pardoned, and that's why he pulled out of cooperating? Is that what you're saying?

HONIG: Well, yes, look, what we do know for sure is, Michael Flynn knows and can see Donald Trump's tweets.

Donald Trump has been tweeting about this case incessantly, dozens of times, and he has dangled the possibility of a pardon. That was one of Robert Mueller's specific findings in the report, that Donald Trump repeatedly in public put out there the possibility of pardoning Michael Flynn and others, by the way.

Robert Mueller also talks about Donald Trump tried the same thing with Michael Cohen, with Paul Manafort, with Roger Stone. So, this is part of a pattern. And, yes, I think it's reasonable to conclude. We know Michael Flynn saw those tweets. We know he's a reasonable, rational human being.

And Robert Mueller told us that there could absolutely be a connection.

BROWN: And so you're just saying, from what's publicly available, it's pretty obvious.

And it's interesting in talking to people within Trump's orbit. They say this is, of course, going to happen. I mean, before today, they said this is -- our biggest expectation is that the president will pardon Michael Flynn. He has always felt like his associates, including Paul Manafort, George Papadopoulos, that those who have been charged in the case, convicted of the Russia probe, that they were unfairly targeted because of their association with him.

Do you feel like what we're seeing play out now is sort of a harbinger of what's to come before Trump leaves office?

HONIG: Oh, 100 percent, Pam.

And you raise such an important point. Let's not let the fact that this all seems inevitable sort of cross over and make it seem like it's OK or normal, because it's not normal to see this. And what's really different about the way the president has now really started to use his pardon power -- he's already hinted at this with Roger Stone -- now with Michael Flynn, it goes to full blast -- is, he's pardoning and commuting people who, A, are his direct political allies and, B, may have been in position to expose wrongdoing by the president and those around him.

That's what makes these pardons different in kind from what we have seen from prior presidents of both parties BROWN: But we have seen controversial pardons from past presidents, right? Bill Clinton, for example.

HONIG: Sure.

BROWN: Tell us about that. Just put this into context with former presidents like Bill Clinton.

HONIG: Yes, no question about it. We have seen some dubious pardons in the past. Bill Clinton, I think may be towards the top of that list.

On his very last day in office, President Clinton pardoned his own half-brother, Roger Clinton, and a man named Marc Rich, who was a fugitive then on federal charges, a billionaire fugitive, that, in fact, the Department of Justice, my old office, the Southern District of New York, ended up investigating that for potential bribery.

They did not end up bringing charges. Donald Trump has actually used his pardon power quite a bit less frequently than his predecessors. He's only issued -- I think this makes 39 pardons during his time in office. George W. Bush issued about 200 in twice the time in office, and Barack Obama issued about 1,900 in also twice the time in office, most of those two nonviolent drug offenders serving life or very long sentences.

So, there certainly have been dubious pardons before. But I think, when you look at President Trump, the majority of his, a stunning percentage of his, has gone to his personal acquaintances, to celebrity causes, to right-wing sort of political commentators, heroes, martyrs, whatever you want to call the Dinesh D'Souzas of the world, and now I think, most distressingly, to those people who are his direct political allies and to those people who may have been cooperating -- were cooperating, in Michael Flynn's case, with the federal government.

BROWN: All right, Elie Honig, thanks so much for putting it in legal perspective for us. Thanks for your time. We appreciate it.

HONIG: Thanks, Pam.

BROWN: We have more coverage of our breaking news, President Trump giving a full pardon to his former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn.

Who else could be on the president's pardon list?

And an E.R. doctor now saying he is sick of hearing the lame excuses, his plea, to just wash your hands, stay home, wear a mask, and stop the death and misery.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:28:45]

BROWN: And we're back with our breaking news. President Trump has just announced a full pardon for his former

National Security Adviser Michael Flynn. Flynn pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his contacts with Russia, before reversing course and trying to have his case thrown out.

We're going to have some more coverage of that in just moments.

But let's turn to our health lead now. Take just a second right now to digest the staggering new numbers from the pandemic; 2,100 people died right here in this country in one day. That was Tuesday, only the second time we have had more than 2,000 reported deaths in a day since May.

Things are trending the wrong direction. Doctors are warning Thanksgiving could be the mother of all super-spreader events, as CNN's Athena Jones reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A Thanksgiving like no other, coronavirus infections skyrocketing nearly everywhere, Tuesday marking the deadliest day since early May, more than 2,100 lives lost to the virus.

Nearly 90,000 people set to spend the holiday in a hospital bed, as the U.S. sets our record for hospitalizations for the 15th day in a row.

And with millions of people ignoring CDC guidance and flying home to celebrate with family, experts warn, Thanksgiving dinners could serve up another huge spike in infections.

DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: It's the -- potentially, the mother of all super-spreader events.

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