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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump Issues Full Pardon to Michael Flynn; Thanksgiving COVID Surge?. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired November 25, 2020 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:30:00]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): And with millions of people ignoring CDC guidance and flying home to celebrate with family, experts warn, Thanksgiving dinners could serve up another huge spike in infections.

DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: It's the -- potentially, the mother of all super-spreader events.

JONES: The COVID-19 test positivity rate nationwide is hovering around 10 percent. And the situation is even worse in some places, adding to the danger.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NIAID DIRECTOR: What we don't want to see is yet another surge superposed upon the surge that you just described, which we will realize, three, three-and-a-half weeks from now, if we don't do these public health things.

JONES: A doctor in St. Louis recording this video to drive home the point.

DR. KEN REMY, PEDIATRIC AND ADULT CRITICAL CARE PHYSICIAN: I hope that the last moments of your life don't look like this. I promise you, this is what your mother or your father or your children, when they get COVID disease, will see at the end of their life.

JONES: Some states already on the verge of buckling under the pressure.

GOV. JARED POLIS (D-CO): One out of 41 Coloradans are contagious right now. It is the most -- highest percentage of contagious Coloradans that we have ever had.

JONES: Colorado officials fear, on its current trajectory, the state will more than double its death toll by the end of the year.

California reported nearly 17,000 new cases Tuesday, its highest single-day total ever. Hospitalizations have nearly doubled in the last two weeks in Los Angeles County, where officials reported the highest number of COVID-related deaths in more than two months and warn, it's likely to get worse. DR. MARK GHALY, CALIFORNIA SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: Statewide, I don't believe we have ever seen as many hospital admissions increased since -- like we did just in the past 24 hours. And I hope, but don't expect that it will be the highest we ever have.

JONES: A ban on outdoor dining goes into effect in the county tonight. And the Health Department is urging residents to leave home only for essential needs.

More restrictions now likely in New York City. After months of low case numbers, hospitalization rates in the state have increased 128 percent over the last three weeks, according to Governor Andrew Cuomo.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JONES: And to put this all in perspective, Tuesday was the 22nd day in a row the U.S. reported more than 100,000 new COVID-19 cases. In this case, it was more than 172,000.

And we just learned a short time ago that California set a record for new cases for the second straight day, reporting more than 18,000 cases on Wednesday -- Pamela.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: That is sobering. Thank you so much, Athena.

Joining me now to discuss this is the dean of Brown University School of Public Health Dr. Ashish Jha.

All right, so, let's just take a step back and look at the latest COVID numbers, 173,000 new cases, more than 2,100 COVID deaths, and more than 88,000 hospitalizations. That is a new record.

This is all the day before Thanksgiving. If you will, Dr. Jha, what is the story behind these numbers that I just laid out?

I think we're having a hard time connecting.

Dr. Jha?

(CROSSTALK)

DR. ASHISH JHA, DEAN, BROWN UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: Sorry. Yes. Yes, I'm back. Sorry. Can you hear me?

BROWN: I'm not sure if you heard my question.

But, basically, when you look at the numbers, what is the story that these numbers tell?

JHA: Yes, sorry. And, again, apologies for that.

Thank you for having me on.

The story that it tells is that we're in the middle of a pretty tough time of the pandemic. Probably, the darkest days of the pandemic are the next six to eight weeks ahead of us. And I fully expect that the numbers will climb well above 200,000

infections a day. We're going to have more than 100,000 people hospitalized. And you're going to see the strains on hospitals across the country, even without the Thanksgiving surge. And I am worried that Thanksgiving is going to make things worse.

BROWN: And just to be clear, this isn't because the virus has mutated or something changed with the virus. This is because people have changed their behaviors, right? This is why we're seeing the upward trend.

JHA: Yes, so the upward trend really began right after Labor Day, started seeing increases in cases.

And I think there are two or three things happening. Definitely no evidence of mutations. I think the colder weather in the northern half of the country really is making a difference. And then I also think people have just been tired of changing behavior.

And policy-makers have been slow to close bars and restaurants. So, it's a combination of all of those things that have gotten us to the place we are in.

BROWN: And let's talk about the president-elect, Biden. He talked about these big challenges. He said he's going to listen to public health experts, prioritize testing and tracing, provide PPE for all, establish a global approach to distribute a vaccine and protect high- risk Americans.

That all sounds good and well, but, realistically, what can he actually do on day one to change things?

JHA: Well, I think there's a lot.

I mean, I think certainly getting a good team in place, which he has so far, is going to be very helpful. I think what he can start doing now is start signaling to the marketplace that there really will be a federal government engaged in buying up more tests, buying up more personal protective equipment. I think that will help.

But, ultimately, his biggest impact is going to come once he is actually in office and can start implementing these policies. I think we need those policies implemented right now to try to get this virus under control.

[16:35:08]

BROWN: All right. Dr. Ashish Jha, thank you so much. Have a great Thanksgiving.

JHA: Thank you. Thank you. You too.

BROWN: And breaking news: President Trump has issued a full pardon to his former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn.

Why this could be just the first of many pardons in the next few weeks.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:40:03]

BROWN: And we are back with breaking news.

President Trump moments ago announced a full pardon for his former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn. The president tweeted: "It is my great honor to announce that General Michael T. Flynn has been granted a full pardon. Congratulations to General Flynn and his wonderful family. I know you will now have a truly fantastic Thanksgiving."

Joining me now is John Dean, former White House counsel to Richard Nixon, and former federal prosecutor Laura Coates.

Thank you both for coming on to talk about this.

John, first to you.

Look, my sources tell me that this is something the president has long wanted to do. We have known this was under discussion at the White House in recent days. What is your reaction now that it's official?

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I'm not surprised.

I think he's had an on his mind since he lined up the turkey yesterday and he -- maybe this is another turkey, in the eyes of some. But he has obviously been concerned about Flynn for a long time. He's leaned on the Department of Justice in unusual ways. The department has been on all sides of this case, both prosecuting it and then withdrawing a prosecution. It's a very unusual case.

I think Flynn knows an awful lot that Mr. Trump doesn't want him talking about. And that would suggest why he has come through before Thanksgiving.

BROWN: What do you think? Do you think this signals there is more to this story then, Laura?

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: I'm sorry.

Laura, and then we will come back to you, John.

COATES: Sure. No, I'd love to hear from John Dean on this issue in particular.

DEAN: Go ahead, Laura.

COATES: But I think it does suggest more in terms of what he -- the reason and perhaps his motivation for deciding to not be fully cooperative, as was alluded to in the last segment about this episode.

The notion here that Michael Flynn just on his own accord and without any sort of guidance anywhere just decided that he was going to retract guilty pleas and go forward might be very farcical for people to do. We have no evidence to suggest that President Trump, in fact, actually put his thumb on the scale, but he tweeted. It was very well- known what he expected.

He was very, very clear about his absolute ability to pardon and about his treat -- his views on the treatment of Michael Flynn from day one. He was very clear about this being a part of the witch-hunt. And, of course, he even praised, up until recently, the attorney for Michael Flynn for suggesting just that very notion.

So I think that he -- the writing was on the wall for Michael Flynn to believe that there was some reason for him to say that, look, I'm digging my heels, and not the least of which were the statements by the president about a so-called deep state in the Department of Justice, whereby he was wrapped up into some grand conspiracy of a witch-hunt.

That was one of the leading things that Michael Flynn tried to speak about, in accordance with the president's own tweets and statements all across the country and all across the airwaves.

BROWN: Right.

I mean, you really laid out how this case has taken so many twists and turns from the very beginning. And we're also just learning that Mark Meadows, the president's chief of staff, he just tweeted: "Congratulations to General Flynn, a well-deserved day for an American patriot. What the left did to him and his family these last four years must never be allowed to happen again in America."

John Dean, your take?

(LAUGHTER)

DEAN: Well, it was -- he was fired by Trump originally for lying to the vice president. He was prosecuted for lying to the FBI.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: And he admitted it. He admitted to lying to the FBI.

DEAN: He admitted twice to lying to the FBI, as well as to the vice president.

So the lie isn't going to go away. What they're trying to erase is the criminal prosecution and the conviction. And they will successfully do that with a pardon, although the history of the event will always be there.

BROWN: And I just want to go to...

(CROSSTALK) BROWN: Go ahead, Laura.

COATES: I was going to say, it must be said, we're talking about the president of the United States, who's the head of the executive branch of government, whose job it is to enforce the laws of the land.

And what's being said right now is a congratulations for somebody who tried to undermine the actual investigatory process that was undertaken by members of the executive branch of government, has lied and committed perjurious statements.

We're congratulating this behavior? For what reason? And what message that said not to people who can rub the elbows of the president of the United States, whoever that might be? But the idea that, if you lie, you should be rewarded, if you plead guilty, it can go away, as long as the president has a sympathetic ear towards you because you're in an inner circle.

What about all of the hundreds of thousands of defendants who right now are looking at this and saying, can I raise my hand right now, because I think I should have an opportunity the same way?

There is a standard that we set in the federal government in prosecutions. And to have it congratulated at this wide level is really just hurting the morale of prosecutors, whose job it is to prosecute these cases with their held -- head held high, believing that the president of the United States, at the very least, is behind him or her.

[16:45:04]

BROWN: And we are seeing a pattern emerge here, John, because, as we know, the president has previously commuted the sentence for Roger Stone, another ally of the president who was sentenced in the Russia probe.

And -- but at the same time, look, he is exercising the authority granted to him by the Constitution here, right?

DEAN: He is, indeed. Rather sweeping authority, no question about it. He has gone up to the edge where proprietary is raised.

His first -- his first pardon of Joe Arpaio was for contempt of court and that's very unusual for a president to reach into a judicial proceeding where the judge exercising his police powers over his court when Arpaio had misbehaved in court and erased that.

So, this is not a norm for most presidents and I suspect that while there is very little the Congress can do to put any restrictions on the pardon power, I think they are going to look at it awfully closely as to the process that's involved.

BROWN: What would you say, John, to Trump allies who come back and say, well, look what past presidents have done. Look at what President Clinton did with his pardon power. How is this different? What would you say to them? DEAN: Well, you know, for example, I think there are about 1,500 or

1,600 pardons that were done by Oba -- his immediate predecessor Obama, and they were carefully processed through the Department of Justice, through the pardon attorney. There were some controversial Clinton pardons and they were done and they were investigated by Congress which thought there was some quid pro quo for Clinton's Library only to find out they were dead wrong and Clinton told the truth and the prime minister of Israeli had put pressure on him to issue a pardon and that turned out to be correct.

So, it's a delicate area. It's one of the few areas where president's powers are -- there is almost nothing anybody can do or say about them and this will come up, of course, in the context of a self-pardon which I'm sure Mr. Trump is seriously considering right now.

BROWN: What do you think about that, Laura? I know sources have told me that it's something that he has asked about. That doesn't necessarily mean he is going to do it but the idea of a self-pardon as John just raised.

COATES: Well, the Constitution does not explicitly and expressly prohibit it. It's quite clear that the pardoning power is absolutely except in the context of impeachment. You look at the idea of how the Department of Justice normally operates, you're not allowed to sit as a judge in one's own case which would essentially be the president exercising that level of judgment and oversight over a case prospectively with charges involving himself.

And so, the question here for the last four years, we have been in a lot of unchartered territory. We looked at the wall, it says, in case of emergency, break glass, to find there's nothing is behind it. Because guess what, Pam? No one's ever tried to self-pardon one's self as president of the United States.

And so, this -- if he were to attempt to do this would most assuredly go up to the Supreme Court, would have to wrestle with the parameters of what a president could truly do. And remember, a pardon is not actually supposed to be a get out of jail free card for any future conduct for the rest of your life. It's supposed to be limited in scope to conduct that's occurred while you had the presidential power for a fixed moment in time.

For example, Gerald Ford pardoning Nixon for a time while he was president of the United States and not for anything in perpetuity. So, we are looking at, essentially, a Supreme Court, most of which he's already nominated and confirmed, who have ultimately decide whether President Trump could do it.

BROWN: Right. And I just want to go back to this and we'll go back to Flynn. But sources I've spoken to close to the president, John, they backed down the idea he would ever issue a self-pardon because it would be essentially admitting wrongdoing, admitting criminal wrongdoing in their view and president would never want to do that.

Do you really think he would? DEAN: Well, that -- that's a good question. He might, as an insurance

policy, want to stick one in his pocket, and not announce that he had done it, a self-pardon. But there is no question, a pardon is -- to accept a pardon is to acknowledge guilt. There is a Supreme Court case on that.

In fact, Gerald Ford, after he pardoned Nixon, carried a little slip of paper with a quote from the relevant Supreme Court ruling that he could pull out when anybody asked him why he was giving Nixon this pass. He said, well, Nixon admitted guilt when he accepted the pardon which is true.

So, that's what Trump is worried about. That's why he wouldn't announce it. If he were ever indicted, that's his -- that's his check, that is his ability to say, hey, you can't prosecute me because I have self-pardoned.

[16:50:01]

Then we'd litigate that issue for probably several years.

BROWN: So, you're saying essentially in the dark of the night, he could pardon himself, no one would -- no one would know? Is that what you're saying? Of course, this is speculative.

DEAN: He could do that.

BROWN: OK, OK.

DEAN: He does not have it announce it.

BROWN: OK.

DEAN: He does not have it announce it.

BROWN: Again, I want to be clear, this is all speculative. We have no indication he is going to do this.

But you're right that this is something as he sees the final weeks ahead of him, Laura Coates, this is something that he clearly wants to flex his muscle on, the power of the pardon that he has every right to do. What do you think is to come? Do you think this is the first of many to come starting with Michael Flynn here?

COATES: I do. I think there will be several others. The theme here is that he is hoping to pardon all of those who he feels has been engulfed in this witch hunt, conspiracy, that he thought arose from the Mueller report. I suspect you have other people who are involved, not to mention there are other cases where you have close associates.

For example, Rudy Giuliani, who was investigated with SDNY for his -- with Lev Parnas and the like. You got discussions about the Trump Organization, family members who may be investigated. Wire fraud issues. I mean, tax evasion issues.

Remember that "The New York Times" report about the amount of money he wrote off and whether it was going as an effective write-off to somebody who was a consultant or not, and that being his daughter according to reporting. But these are speculative, Pam.

But I think the number one thing to keep in mind is, a lot of the things that are on the horizon for a non-sitting president that is Donald Trump does not just include federal prosecutions which the pardon power only relates to. You've got state level issues as well here, state level litigation in cases to which even if he dreams wholeheartedly of pardoning all of those, the Constitution does not provide for those and they still have power at the state level that could overshadow even a presidential pardon.

BROWN: All right. Laura Coates and John Dean, thank you for that robust discussion on this breaking news. We appreciate it.

And we have much more ahead. President Trump's first pardon since losing the election, his former national security adviser Michael Flynn. Who could be next on the president's list?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:56:30]

BROWN: Well, this year has highlighted how many people are struggling but thankfully, Lisa Ling is bringing us inspiring stories that we could all use, right? On this Sunday's premiere of "THIS IS LIFE", we're going to learn about an unconventional bond between a group of prep school students and maximum security prisoners.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I bet you every man in blue here has been told the same thing, be a man, be a man, be a man. We're taught this through so much multigenerational dysfunction.

My dad beat me (ph) not to cry. Go, man (ph), hitting a kid. That was the answer I've gotten at that time.

I look at the youth and I'm like, you guys should not be learning that kind of lesson. Don't believe that. It took me to come to prison to understand a man is loving, a man is understanding. A man treasures his family and his friends. A man is selfless. These are things you should be taught. We weren't. So I teach them here to you today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And joining us now is the host of "THIS IS LIFE", Lisa Ling.

Great to see you, Lisa. We should note, this was filmed before the pandemic, hence, the lack of masks and social distancing, we just saw there in the video.

But, clearly, the boys from Palma Prep School have never been to high security prison before. What was it like for them? Were they nervous?

LISA LING, CNN HOST: Well, certainly, the ones who were going and starting the program for the first time. It's a program that's been in existence for six years. It's an elective at the school. And the boys will go in to the CTF prison in Soledad for eight weeks and may well read a novel together.

And you would think that the prisoners would really be the biggest beneficiaries of the program because they have these educated young men coming in and reading with them. But what I found was the young men from the Palma school, these are elite prep school boys, really, really were so moved and transformed by the experience. I mean, you saw that clip of Raul who was so candidly sharing about his life. The men in this program are so remorseful, but they are also so kind of evolved about their emotions and the trauma that they experienced as young boys and how it affected the rest of their lives. And by sharing that kind of candor with these prep school boys, it gave these young men permission to feel themselves.

And we are always telling young men, be a man, man up, don't show feelings, don't cry. And it was incredible the kinds of things the prep school boys started to share, things that some of their fellow students who had known them their whole lives had never known about them. So, it was an incredible experience.

BROWN: So fascinating and so true that young men are taught at a very young age that basically they can't experience the full spectrum of human emotion. And so, that really I'm sure was eye opening for them to hear them talk about. Talk about the every book is an engine for empathy that the boy's teacher said.

LING: Yeah. So, this is what the program is about. The teacher Jim Micheletti (ph) says that literature is interpreted differently, depending on who is reading it.

I have to tell you this one story. The reason I felt compelled to tell this story is because a couple of a years ago, some of the incarcerated men were reading a book called "Through the Valley of Kwai", and they decided to start a scholarship to benefit a young man who might otherwise not be able to afford a prep school education at the Palma School.

And so, these inmates raise about 8 cents an hour and they raised $30,000 and a young man graduated last year having had almost all of his entire education paid for by inmates.

BROWN: All right. Thank you so much. We're out of time. Lisa Ling, can't wait to see it.

And our coverage on CNN continues right now.

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