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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Who Will Get Vaccine First?; Interview With Joe Scarborough. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired December 01, 2020 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:30:00]

JOE SCARBOROUGH, AUTHOR, "SAVING FREEDOM": And that's something that Joe Biden, more than any other president, my gosh, since, what, LBJ understands how the Senate works.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Yes.

Let's turn to your book. There are some pretty clear parallels between President Truman and president-elect Biden, both coming in as presidents during extraordinarily difficult times for our country.

What stands out to you the most when you look at both men?

SCARBOROUGH: Well, I think both men were underestimated their entire life.

Of course, a lot of us have seen the Reagan documentary on Showtime, where poor young Jeff Greenfield recommends that one day Joe Biden will be the Democratic nominee, and he is laughed off the set, practically, by Walter Cronkite.

Biden, of course, was the butt of a lot of jokes in the '88 campaign and the way it ended in 1987. Same thing with the 2008 campaign and the beginning of the 2020 campaign.

Joe Biden has always been underestimated. Same thing happened with Harry Truman, who, when he got to Washington in 1934, was dismissed as a rube by "The New York Times." In 1940, FDR wouldn't even endorse him, despite the fact he was one of the strongest champions of the New Deal.

When he was picked in 44 as vice president, his own -- FDR's own chief of staff mocked him and said, who the hell is Harry Truman?

And yet he kept surprising his critics time and time again. He left with a 22 percent approval rating. But, as I talk about in the book, Winston Churchill said that no man did more to save Western civilization than did Harry Truman.

And the guy -- again, because he understood how Washington worked, because he understood the Senate, because he could strike bipartisan compromise, he had a bigger impact on the world stage than any president in 75 years. TAPPER: Well, it's a great book. It's called "Saving Freedom: Truman,

the Cold War, and the Fight for Western Civilization."

Joe Scarborough, thanks so much for joining us. Happy holidays to you and Mika, and best of luck with the book.

SCARBOROUGH: Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it.

TAPPER: No problem. It's my pleasure.

Breaking news on the race for a COVID vaccine and the vote this hour that could determine who's going to get the vaccine first.

We're going to take a quick break. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:36:41]

TAPPER: In our health lead today: After a record-breaking November in terms of coronavirus, all signs are, sadly, pointing to an even darker December; 158,000 new coronavirus cases were reported just yesterday.

Hospitalizations have doubled since November 1. They have tripled since October 1.

And, as CNN's Erica Hill reports for us now, health care workers are sounding the alarm that they might not be able to handle this growing surge for much longer.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ERICA HILL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Key vaccine decisions being made at this very moment by a CDC advisory committee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want to end this pandemic, get back to normalcy, you have to use the vaccine strategically.

HILL: That strategy is expected to prioritize front-line health care workers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this will be data-driven. This will be scientifically based.

HILL: Two companies have requested emergency use authorization for their vaccines. An outside advisory FDA panel meets to discuss Pfizer's application on December 10. Moderna's is scheduled for consideration December 17.

Once OKed, states will distribute the vaccine. Their plans are due Friday.

DR. PETER HOTEZ, BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE: And there may be certain groups that they tailor specifically, poultry in Arkansas, or some of the meatpacking plants in the Midwest or in the Panhandle. There's going to be this balance between, one, trying to save as many lives as possible, but also stabilizing the health system.

HILL: A health system that is increasingly strained. Nationwide, COVID hospitalizations doubled in November.

DR. KELLY CAWCUTT, NEBRASKA MEDICINE: we can only handle so much of a surge. The system is only made with so much capacity.

HILL: All but three states reporting an increase in new cases last month.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the worst spot we have been in since March.

HILL: Daily average cases surged from 82,000 to 160,000 in November, an increase of more than 95 percent. Average daily reported deaths rose more than 78 percent.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sometimes, I'm grieving for my husband, and then I realize my mom's gone, you know, and then I'm grieving for my mom.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NIAID DIRECTOR: All things considered, we're not in a good place.

HILL: Florida just became the third state to log more than a million cases since the pandemic began, California warning a new stay-at-home order maybe on the horizon.

Meantime, the economic toll is growing.

DYLAN GARCIA, TEXAS RESIDENT: What's the bigger risk, me going to work or us losing our house, or, like, what?

HILL: Millions of Americans struggling, as Amazon reports record sales, a reminder of the sharp divide between Wall Street's gains and Main Street's reality.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HILL: Jake, an open letter today from three of the premier medical organizations here in the United States, the American Medical Association, the American Hospital Association, and the American Nurses Association, urging Americans to remain vigilant while they wait for a vaccine, keep wearing masks, social distance, wash your hands.

And we also learned today from the American Academy of Pediatrics that cases in children were up 29 percent in the two weeks leading into Thanksgiving. In fact, in just that week leading into Thanksgiving, they say 154,000 new cases confirmed in children -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Erica Hill, thank you so much for that report.

[16:40:01]

CNN's chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, joins us now.

Sanjay, hospitalizations have doubled since November 1, tripled since October 1. Now the COVID Tracking Project is warning that we're going to see 100,000 Americans hospitalized in the next couple days.

What's the worst-case scenario, based off these just statistics? Where are we going?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, I mean, it's pretty bad right now. I mean, this would have been the worst-case scenario if we talked about this a month ago.

I mean, Rhode Island's got field hospitals now, Convention Centers turned into field hospitals as well, in addition to tents. Wisconsin had their highest death rate recently. California, they may reinstate some of these stay-at-home orders because their ICUs are already becoming overwhelmed, expected to become overwhelmed completely by Christmas Eve.

I mean, it's bad, Jake. I mean, that's the thing. We have been talking about this for so long, it feels like the boiling frog. But if people out there who have preventable illness, people out there who could go to a hospital and get better, and they can't find beds anymore, that is the worst-case scenario, and we're very close to it.

TAPPER: Do you think that states that are now imposing restrictions or going back to more restrictions, will that be effective in slowing the spread? Or is it too late? Are we too far gone?

GUPTA: No, I don't think -- I think the metaphor is to think about it like a fast-moving ship through the ocean. The faster it's going, the more inertia that it has, it's going to take longer to slow down.

It's not that you can't stop that ship, ultimately. It's just going to take longer, because we have allowed this problem to just magnify and magnify and grow. And that's that ship.

So, put in those measures, and it will slow things down, and eventually bring it to a stop. Masks is a big one, Jake, right? I think we're an impatient society. We expect the fix to happen just like this.

But if you look, for example, in Kansas counties that they actually put in mask mandates -- about a quarter of the state -- a quarter of the counties put a mask mandate in, and the rest did not. The ones that did, they brought down vital transmission 6 percent. The other ones went up 100 percent.

Six percent may not sound like a lot, but to bring something down right now, given the growth that we have right now, is very significant.

TAPPER: So, there is this new study saying -- or suggesting, rather, that the coronavirus may have been circulating in the U.S. as early as December of last year. Tell us more about that. And what does this mean? GUPTA: Yes, it's -- I think it's a really good study. It was very

interesting.

They looked at blood samples from people back in mid-December, and they found antibodies that were specific to this coronavirus. It's as simple as that. It wasn't like antibodies to other coronaviruses. It was this, which meant the people whose blood had been sampled had been exposed to the coronavirus. So, that made a lot of sense.

It also means that there was probably evidence of community spread much earlier in China than we knew. Nick Paton Walsh had a great report about this. It was happening there. And they knew about it. And people were getting on planes and going here and going all over the world very quickly.

It reminds us an outbreak anywhere is an outbreak everywhere. It's very hard to control.

TAPPER: New York City is seeing a spike in cases. On Sunday, they decided to reopen some schools there.

Plenty of medical authorities, like Dr. Fauci and others, have said the very last thing that should be shut down are the schools. The bars restaurants should be shut down before that.

Is there any reason, with what we know, that elementary school-aged children should not be in school?

GUPTA: I really don't think so at this point.

I mean, I was -- I was skeptical about it myself, Jake, because kids are little -- they're little virus factories, typically, right? I mean, my kid would come home with some sort of respiratory illness, and all of us would get it in the house.

TAPPER: Right.

GUPTA: I mean, it's just -- they're very contagious. And coronavirus is a very contagious virus.

Why is it that little kids, who are typically viral spreaders -- and this is a very contagious virus -- aren't spreading? I don't know. It's probably one of a couple reasons.

One is that, maybe in the schools, they are being very diligent. I mean, as contagious as they are, the kids demonstrate how easily it can be contained still. They wear a mask, they wash hands, it makes a huge difference.

Or it could be that little kids just, for whatever reason, with this virus, just don't -- aren't as likely to be transmitters. We don't know. But the answer your question is, I think why would you close down schools and keep bars open? It makes no sense at this point scientifically.

TAPPER: Dr. Fauci predicts that we're going to see the surge from Thanksgiving travel hitting right before Christmas.

Should people plan to stay home and apart for upcoming Christmas season?

GUPTA: Yes, I hate to be the one that to say that, but, yes, Jake.

And, I mean, look, we look at the data -- and I don't relish having to give this sort of information. But look at Canada, for example. Canada is a good example. Their Thanksgiving is middle of October. And you can see what was going on there.

The day before Canadian Thanksgiving, there were about 1,800, 1,900 new cases, on Thanksgiving, 2,200 cases or so, a few weeks later, just about doubled, OK, and it's still going up.

So, there's an example. Obviously, there are differences between Canada and the United States, big holiday in the country to the north. That's a little bit of a glimpse of what we're likely to see after Thanksgiving, and then, obviously, maybe after Christmas, if the same thing happens.

TAPPER: Obviously, the news of a vaccine is promising, but we need to remind people it's not out there yet.

[16:45:00]

And first, it's going to first responders and people in nursing homes before it gets to the general public. The pandemic is, right now, the worst it has ever been in the United States.

And even though we are all experiencing COVID fatigue and we're all, you know, just beat down by this psychologically, we need to stay strong. People need to remember now is not the time to throw caution to the wind.

GUPTA: Yeah. I mean, you know, if you've got hope on the horizon, you're going into one of two mindsets. One is, hey, we can proceed with abandon at this point because hope is on the horizon. Or you can say, hey, in the next few months, if I just sort of double down and put my head down and do this, I'll be part of a movement that could save hundreds of thousands of lives.

You look at these models, and again, I'm not a hyperbolic person, but the conservative IHME model says there'd be 470,000 people who would die by March 1st, okay? Now that also assumed 40 states would reimpose some sort of stay-at-home order.

Do you think that's going to happen? If those states don't do, we are closer to 650,000 by March 1st. We definitely can make a difference and we have to because the vaccines are coming, but they won't be here in time for that.

TAPPER: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

A vote is expected any minute that will determine who gets the COVID vaccine first. We're going to have that for you when the news come in. And also, a first look at a key part of the distribution process

already ramping up. We'll show that to you, next.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:51:13]

TAPPER: And breaking news in our health lead today.

Any minute, a CDC advisory committee is expected to vote on who should get the coronavirus first.

Let's bring in Dr. Peter Hotez, the co-director of the Center for Vaccine Development at Texas Children's Hospital.

Dr. Hotez, after the first batch of people getting the vaccine, we presume that that will be health care providers, people on the front lines, doctors, nurses, hospital staff. What happens next?

HOTEZ: Well, I think it's going to be really important to do two things. We want to stabilize the health care system and that is a key reason to vaccinate all of the health providers as quickly as possible. And then those at highest risk and I think nursing home residents are going to be high priority.

So, we're looking at roughly 21,000 health -- 21 million health care workers, 3 million residents of nursing homes and assisted living facilities, that will pretty much use up the dosage for the rest of the year because there's going to be about 40 million doses, divided in half, because you're going to have to give those three, four weeks apart.

So those are the kinds of numbers we're looking at, at least in the beginning.

TAPPER: I believe I heard the statistic that 40 percent of the fatalities have been people who are in retirement communities, nursing homes. The head of the CDC committee that's voting now says the final decision about what specifically gets the vaccine will be made by states since there will not be enough to go around in the first batch. In your experience, is that standard?

HOTEZ: Yeah, I mean, so much -- not many people realize this, but so much vaccine policy in this country is actually set at the state level, so the individual legislatures make a lot of vaccine policy in terms of school requirements. This is why, you know, I have been going up against the anti-vaccine lobby for years and it's tough, because you have to do it types 50 because each state is different.

So, it doesn't surprise me that the states will do the same thing. Hopefully, they'll listen to the ACIP guidelines. Also, the national academy has issued some guidelines as well. But we can expect that each state will fine tune those guidelines to some of unique needs of the state in terms of certain populations at risk. Also, you know, New Mexico or Texas, which is a very high Hispanic

population -- we have seen about 35 percent of the deaths under the age of 65 in those groups. And so, that means this idea of a 65-year- old age cutoff will not work in our part of the country. So, there's going to be a lot of fine-tuning like that.

TAPPER: Now, the Pfizer vaccine, there are a couple of vaccines. There's Pfizer and Moderna and then there are others that are in the works. The Pfizer needs to be stored at negative 94 degrees Fahrenheit, negative 94.

We were showing right now hospital in Delaware installing freezers to hold the vaccines.

Do places like Rite-Aid and CVS, do they have to capacity to handle these vaccines, to store it at negative 94?

HOTEZ: Well, the Moderna one which we'll follow can be at a typical freezer temperature. So that's good. The Pfizer one, you're right, much more dramatic, freezing required. However, it can be stable in refrigerated temperatures for a couple of days. So, one possibility, depending on how they were arranged with the contractor is to keep it stored in a special facility and then send it to the various pharmacies and keep it refrigerated for a couple of days.

My understanding is some of the CVS and big chain pharmacies will, in any particular city may have one or two that really keeps that deep freezer capacity. But again, it's going to vary a lot locally.

And, you know, one of the things that I'm hoping as we try to keep it as straight forward and simple as possible, we've seen how awful the testing went. Our health system just doesn't handle complicated things very well. So, I think the simpler the guidelines we have, the better off we're going to be in the long run.

[16:55:05]

TAPPER: So, Walgreens says they're preparing to administer vaccines to about 1 million long-term care facility residents. CVS is also preparing about 900,000 to deliver to nursing home residents. It's great news.

But when people hear that these major pharmacies are preparing to distribute vaccines, we should note, this doesn't mean you can just walk into your local Walgreens or CVS to get them.

HOTEZ: That's right. It's not going to be like the way adults typically get their vaccines. Eventually, it will be like that, because remember, these are the first two vaccines, Pfizer first, and then Moderna, and then we're going to have adenovirus vaccines, AstraZeneca Oxford and then the J&J adenovirus vaccine. That just requires refrigeration, and then maybe the Novavax vaccine. Who knows? Maybe our vaccine a little later on that we're scaling up in India.

And so, with time, it's going to be much more straight forward and you can get it at your pharmacy, supermarket, and CVS, and it will get a lot easier. In the beginning, there will be greater logistical challenges.

TAPPER: These vaccines, at least these first two need to be taken in multiple doses. I think you need two shots of the Pfizer vaccine. Is that going to be difficult to facilitate?

HOTEZ: I hope not. I mean, there are a lot of adult vaccines we give in two doses. Shingrix, for instance, we've often given in two doses. That's not uncommon. And I think the AstraZeneca Oxford will be two doses. Maybe the J&J will be one dose.

So, the tricky part is you're going to have to have situational awareness. In other words, you get your vaccine. Remember, you have to get the second dose either in three or four weeks apart, depending on the vaccine.

In Texas, what they're going to do is send note cards to people, but it's going to require personal responsibility, because one of the things we know, Jake, is that from the phase one studies, you do not get very much in the way of virus neutralizing antibody after one dose. That's how these vaccines work and protect you so you're going to need the second dose.

TAPPER: All right. Dr. Peter Hotez, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

And should a COVID vaccine be authorized by the FDA? Distribution could begin within 24 hours and the same airlines struggling to fill passenger flights will now be a major part of the operation and the solution.

CNN's Pete Muntean got a first look at the equipment that United Airlines is putting in place at Dulles International in Northern Virginia -- Pete.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jake, this is really something we have not seen before. And it is a critical part of getting the vaccine from where it's being made to where it needs to be administrated.

This is essentially one big refrigerator that United Airlines will use to keep the vaccine cold. That is crucial when it comes to transporting it. And airlines and air cargo carriers may be involved with transporting distances. It is only 39 degrees Fahrenheit in here right now.

The Moderna vaccine might be kept in negative 4 degrees Fahrenheit. The Pfizer vaccine maybe as low as negative 100 degrees Fahrenheit and require a special freezer. Airlines and air cargo carriers already use these refrigerated containers to keep things like vaccines cold.

Actual vaccine not in here right now, although airlines have already been getting their infrastructure ready to make sure things are in place for when the vaccine gets rolled out. United Airlines is actually already flying some vaccines for Pfizer. American Airlines is doing vaccine test flights between Miami and South America. UPS, DHL, FedEx, all involve in this. Even the FAA is giving airlines a special waiver to carry extra dry ice on board to keep the vaccine super cold like it needs to be.

You know, airlines have been struggling in the pandemic. Air travel is still down about 60 percent. They cannot wait for a vaccine to be rolled out. Now, they may be key to getting it to you -- Jake.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: All right. Pete Muntean, thank you so much.

Finally, today, we'd like to remember just one of the more than 269,000 lives that we have lost to the coronavirus in the United States.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NOE MONTOYA, MUSICIAN AND LATINO ACTIVIST: I'd like to dedicate this song to all the warriors for justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Noe Montoya, he played his guitar to send a message. He sang about social justice. He was a fierce advocate for the United Farm Workers. He marched with Cesar Chaves. He lived in Hollister, California, and he was the soul of his local theater company. They called him the "Maestro".

Montoya tested positive for coronavirus just a few days ago on November 19th. He died on Thanksgiving Day.

May his memory be a blessing.

A reminder, President-elect Joe Biden and Vice President-elect Kamala Harris will join me Thursday for their first joint interview since their election win, and you can see a portion of that Thursday here on THE LEAD.

Then join me for a one-our special Thursday night at 9:00 Eastern only on CNN.

Our coverage on CNN continues right now.

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