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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Mark Kelly Sworn in as U.S. Senator; Will President Trump Pardon His Family?; Biden Facing Pressure As He Vows to Build Diverse Team; Sen. Tammy Duckworth (D-IL) is Interviewed About Biden Facing Pressure to Add Diversity to Top Admin Picks. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired December 02, 2020 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:30:04]

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And, Jake, we have not seen President Trump today. He had one meeting scheduled. That was with the secretary of state earlier today.

But he just posted a 46-minute video on Twitter, where he is repeating a lot of the same lies that we have heard over the last several weeks about the election, insisting that he won, continuing to spread conspiracy theories that even his own attorney general disputed yesterday, and also admitting something that we had been reporting he's talking about privately, which is this fear that he will be prosecuted once he's out of office.

It's a 46-minute video. It was taped without reporters in the room, Jake. And this is the only time that we have actually seen the president today. But, of course, what we're hearing is basically the same thing we have been hearing, which is that he plans to continue to at least try to contest the outcome of the election, even though they have failed so far.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Yes, the sorest loser in American political history.

Kaitlan Collins at the White House, thank you so much.

Let's discuss now.

Laura Coates, legally, can Trump pardon himself? Can he pardon his children? Can he pardon anyone preemptively, even if they have not yet been charged with a crime?

LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Let's start with the easiest one. The answer is, we don't know fully, because the courts have not looked into the issue of self-pardons, because no other president has tried.

But it seems pretty clear that, under the Justice Department's guidelines, you're not supposed to stand in judgment of yourself. So it would run counterthetical to it. But the other issue is that here we're talking about his children or

anyone preemptively. The answer is, yes, you can, in fact, engage in preemptive pardons.

Now, the amount of pardon power you have is normally absolute, but noted that, when Gerald Ford pardoned Nixon, when President Carter, for example, pardoned those who were avoiding the draft, there was a fixed amount of time and a temporal requirement, meaning Ford said only the conduct that occurred by the time you were the inaugurated president and, of course, resigning as president would actually account.

And then there was more specificity when it came to Carter's general pardon of those who were Vietnam War draft avoiders, saying that it had to be related to a specific statute. And so you have got these two requirements really playing up the fact that, while it can be preempted, it has to actually be a closed universe. It can't be a, say, get-out-of-jail free card for, if you get pardoned today, and 20 years from now, you are -- you commit a crime, you have no accountability.

TAPPER: Jackie Kucinich, some of the president's allies are very keen on this idea. You heard Sean Hannity there and Matt Gaetz, Congressman Matt Gaetz also talking about it.

Why does Trump feel like he needs to give his relatives essentially a get-out-of-jail-free card? I don't know of anything they did that was contrary to the law.

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: And that's what the president has said, that he hasn't done anything wrong this entire time.

However, I would think what you heard some of his allies in the media talk about is giving him a justification that everyone's out to get him, and that's why they would need these pardons, be it your Democrats, I don't know, Republican governors in Georgia. Everyone is against him.

He's someone who plays the victim card fairly often. And this is another extension of that. And I imagine, if he decides to issue these preemptive pardons, it will be cast in a way that he is protecting his family and protecting their reputations from villainous exterior forces that are against him.

TAPPER: And, Laura, documents were unsealed yesterday showing that the Justice Department is actively investigating a potential presidential pardon bribery scheme.

There are so many details we do not know, no names. They were all redacted. Why release this if we know so little about it?

COATES: Well, that's the real question here, as is the question of, are we really here at a state in America where, when you have got this extraordinary pardoning power that now develops into a pay-for-play sort of scheme? I mean, the idea here that we know so little about who the people are

involved. We don't know specifically whether the person was actually given a party. We don't know what crime was actually alleged or who the real players are.

But we do know, although there is redacted information, although, as Kaitlan Collins reported, it says that there's no current official who's involved in it, I mean, who would have the ability to issue a presidential pardon? We know at least one person who is the elephant in the room.

And so you have to wonder how much we're going to learn about this. But, in any event, what ought to be illegal, what ought to be problematic is, the president of the United States using his pardoning power to a financial advantage, as opposed to one that, frankly, he could have exercised without being paid.

TAPPER: Jackie, a source tells CNN that President Trump spoke last night about spending four more years in office, whether that's 2021 or starting in 2025. You heard a clip of that in Kaitlan's piece.

Does just the hint of another Trump run in 2024 keep all these Republicans looking over their shoulders and acting with continued deference to him? Or might there be some distancing, because they want to run for president?

[16:35:01]

KUCINICH: It's been really interesting.

You don't see the distancing that you see with an outgoing president or a lame-duck president that we have seen in prior administrations. These potential 2024 candidates are really, really protecting the president, not saying anything against him, saying that Joe Biden didn't win.

And that's because the president -- 70 million people voted for President Trump. And those are the same people that they will need to support them should Trump decide to be kingmaker.

Now, I don't know about you guys. I have never seen Trump give a crown away. So, it's sort of a -- it's a gamble that these folks are making. But if you're Trump, why would you step down from the throne, when so many people voted for you and so many Republican lawmakers are afraid of you?

TAPPER: And, Laura, you heard in Kaitlan's piece today the White House press secretary would not say that President Trump still has faith in Attorney General Bill Barr, after he said there was no evidence of widespread fraud in the election that would change the results.

But, at the same time, we also know that Barr appointed John Durham as special counsel essentially to investigate the Russia probe investigators again. What impact could the Durham assignment to become special counsel, what impact might that have on Joe Biden's pick for attorney general?

COATES: Well, first of all, we already know that he hasn't have to say whether he has had confidence in Barr, because Barr has already gone against him in this area.

The idea that he had so much faith to begin with was based on essentially -- and forgive the pun -- a trumped-up version of the way in which Barr was a loyalist, from Stone to Manafort to the Mueller report unveiling.

So, his confidence essentially was overblown, in the first instance, based on sheer logic. But in terms of what he's done now, perhaps he's trying to counteract and counterbalance the notion that their big October surprise, the one they were hoping would happen as essentially a sequel to the Comey issue regarding the Clinton exposure of an investigation, they were hoping that Durham would be able to provide that information in October.

And, lo and behold, the DOJ rules said, not so close to an election, and, by the way, we have got nothing to show. And so now I think he's hoping to have perhaps that same cloud of suspicion that met the Trump administration back in 2016 to his advantage, and maybe he's trying to ingratiate himself even as he goes out the door.

TAPPER: And, Jackie, your own--

COATES: But one -- and one more -- if I could--

TAPPER: Go ahead.

COATES: If I could say one thing, because you asked, very pointed, it could have an impact on whoever the incoming A.G. is, Jake, because, of course, whoever the incoming A.G. is, if they're related to that 2016 investigation, they may have to recuse in a way that Sessions did.

TAPPER: Jackie, your own Daily Beast reported today on a pro-Trump anti-election rally in Georgia.

In the piece, Lin Wood, this pro-Trump attorney, said of the Republican Senators Loeffler and Perdue running for reelection: "They have not earned your votes. Don't you give it to them. Why would you go back and vote in another rigged election, for God's sake? Fix it. You got to fix it."

Wood claiming that Loeffler and Perdue have not done enough to pressure Georgia election officials to overturn the election results.

Sidney Powell, Trump's former attorney, was there as well. It's almost as if empowering lunatics might end up being self-destructive.

KUCINICH: Yes, I think this is what -- the term they use in politics unhelpful, because there is a real fear among Georgia Republicans that things like this -- and we saw it over the weekend with Ronna McDaniel getting questions when she was in the state about what -- about the about the election being stolen. By eroding the confidence in the election, at the behest of the president, they are potentially endangering this run-off and their candidates winning.

TAPPER: Reaping, sowing, et cetera.

Jackie and Laura, thanks to both of you. Appreciate it.

Some of the same groups who fought so hard to get Joe Biden elected are now calling him out in a very public way. The end goal of their pressure campaign -- that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:43:30]

TAPPER: Turning to our politics lead now, a new start just moments ago for a man who has held several honorable titles in his life, U.S. Navy captain, astronaut, husband of former Congresswoman Gabby Giffords.

Now Mark Kelly is officially U.S. SENATOR MARK KELLY. The newest Arizona Democrat was sworn in after paying respects to the admired Republican whom he is replacing, the late Senator John McCain.

CNN's Sunlen Serfaty now reports from Capitol Hill.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Senator-elect.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is a full circle moment for Mark Kelly.

SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): I do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Congratulations, Senator.

SERFATY: Standing by his wife, former Congresswoman Gabby Giffords, as her old office building becomes his, sworn in today as the newest senator of Arizona.

KELLY: It would not be possible without you.

SERFATY: This moment of triumph has its roots in tragedy.

In 2011, Congresswoman Giffords was shot in the head and nearly killed at a campaign event in Tucson. It was then that Kelly was thrust into the national spotlight, publicly grieving as a husband--

KELLY: I'm extremely hopeful that Gabby is going to make a full recovery. I have told her that.

SERFATY: -- and as a voice for the nation, mourning the lives of six people who lost their lives in the same shooting. KELLY: Maybe something good can come from all this. Maybe it's our

responsibility, maybe it's your responsibility to see that something does.

SERFATY: Kelly later turned into a political activist, launching Americans for Responsible Solutions alongside his wife, fighting for gun control policies like universal background checks and red flag laws.

[16:45:07]

KELLY: I have a gun. Gabby and I are both gun owners. We are strong supporters of the second amendment but we have to do something to keep the guns from getting in the wrong hands.

SERFATY: Kelly's focus on politics a left turn in an already esteemed career, a former astronaut who flew into space four times, two as commander of the space shuttle.

KELLY: These commissions are very challenging and very rewarding.

SERFATY: He and his identical twin brother Scott, also an astronaut, participated in a one of its kind twin study to see what space flight does to the human body.

KELLY: When we agreed to do this, you know, it kind of opened up that avenue of research.

SERFATY: And was a former Navy captain and pilot who flew 39 combat missions in the First Gulf War.

GABBY GIFFORDS (D-AZ), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSWOMAN: Mark has already served our country in so many ways. Now we need him in the Senate.

SERFATY: This was his first and only campaign so far, defeating incumbent Republican Senator Martha McSally.

KELLY: These are common sense things that most Arizonans support and apparently Senator McSally does not.

SERFATY: In a special election to finish the reset of the late Senator John McCain's term, a man he paid tribute to before being sworn in today.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SERFATY (on camera): And Senator Kelly has spoken to Cindy McCain about potentially using John McCain's old desk in his new Senate office. And notably, this will be the first time in nearly 70 years that two Democrats will now be representing Arizona here in the Senate -- Jake.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Sunlen Serfaty, thank you so much.

The growing pressure on President-elect Joe Biden from some of the very groups who helped get him elected. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:51:26]

TAPPER: In our 2020 lead, new pressure today on President-elect Joe Biden as he vows to builds an administration that looks like all of America. The NAACP is now requesting a meeting with Biden and Vice President-elect Harris to underscore the need in their view for more black nominees in top administration positions.

And as CNN's MJ Lee reports, they are not the only group lobbying the incoming Biden administration with key positions still left to be filled.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We do have a lot of concerns, Mr. Biden. It's been rough.

MJ LEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President-elect Joe Biden staying laser focused on the economy, meeting virtually with small business owners struggling amid the recession and the COVID-19 pandemic.

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT: I know you're all experiencing the effect of one great problem. And that is the economic downturn and in large part because of COVID and the failure of some of our friends in Congress to move forward on the kind of economic package.

LEE: This as the former vice president confronts lobbying from multiple directions. Civil rights and advocacy groups, as well as elected officials publicly calling on Biden to appoint more people of color to high profile cabinet positions. The NAACP has asked for a meeting with Biden and Vice President-elect Kamala Harris to discuss this and other issues important to underrepresented communities.

DERRICK JOHNSON, PRESIDENT AND CEO, NAACP: There have been several meeting with other constituency groups. There's not been a meeting with the civil rights community. We don't want the clock to run out before there's discussion or all the decisions are made.

LEE: Members of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus writing to the transition team, pushing Biden to choose New Mexico governor Michelle Lujan Grisham as his health and human services secretary, and assure that Latinos are more fairly represented in our nation's government.

Sources telling CNN, Lujan Grisham is currently a leading contender for that job. Biden, on Tuesday, touting the diversity of his economic team.

BIDEN: Janet will be the first woman to hold this office and now Wally will be the first African-American ever to hold this post.

LEE: Forty-nine days out from his inauguration, Biden yet to announce other top cabinet positions, including CIA director and secretary of defense.

BIDEN: Just a piece at a time here.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEE (on camera): Now, just one more sign of the flurry of lobbying we are seeing. Some members of the Hispanic Congressional Caucus also writing to Biden, asking that he appoint either Xavier Becerra or Tom Perez as his attorney general.

Jake, I'll tell you when I spoke to the head of the NAACP earlier today, he said it's less about these individual appointments and making sure that civil rights issues and issues that are important to these minority communities be adequately represented in the new administration -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. MJ Lee in Wilmington, Delaware, thank you so much.

Joining us now to discuss, Democratic Senator Tammy Duckworth of Illinois.

Senator Duckworth, thanks so much for joining us.

Are you concerned that President-elect Biden has not yet met with leaders of the NAACP?

SEN. TAMMY DUCKWORTH (D-IL): Well, you know, I think he is in direct contact with many of them, but I'm glad that, you know, they are reaching out to him and I'm sure he'll sit down with them soon.

TAPPER: After all the talk in the last year or so of the need to social justice, the need for criminal justice reform, do you think President-elect Biden should pick an attorney general who is black or of color?

DUCKWORTH: Well, you know, I think that whoever he'll pick will be someone who will support criminal justice reform. I think somebody black or a person of color or even somebody with a disability will be fantastic to have in that role, and I certainly would support that initiative.

But I will tell you that Joe Biden himself supports criminal justice reform and that whoever is in that position will follow his -- his direction to make sure that we make sure that we get rid of the systemic racism that exists in our criminal justice system.

[16:55:13]

TAPPER: But as a general principle, you would agree, as somebody of color yourself, that it's not yet fulfilled, the promises that President-elect Biden made when it came to having an administration that looks like the rest of America? There have been some notable appointments on his economic team, et cetera. But there still needs to be more representation of people of color, you would agree?

DUCKWORTH: Well, I think he is well on his way and I think that by the time it's all said and done, that you will see greater representation of -- by people of color in his cabinet and his administration than any other previous presidency, and I think that he is on his way to that. Let him finish doing the job of the transition.

TAPPER: In an interview released today on Snapchat, President Obama critiqued fellow Democrats on defunding the police.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT: Promoting young people is really important. We stick so long with the same old folks and don't make room for new voices.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I'm sorry. It's a different clip than I thought we were throwing to. But this is about new blood.

And do you think President Obama is right on the need for new blood in the Democratic Party?

DUCKWORTH: Well, I think we have a lot of blood in the Democratic Party and I think that we do need to continue to promote different voices so that everybody has a seat at the table especially in leadership positions. You're seeing the new blood make their voices heard. Now that said, I do think that we need to get to work right away and I'm pleased with the selections that President-elect Biden have made so far in terms of his nominations.

TAPPER: President Trump issued a threat to veto the defense policy bill unless it ends the liability protections for social media companies. What do you think of that? Do you think it's appropriate? Do you think it's dangerous for the president to threaten to veto this bill because of what he perceives to be unfairness by social media companies?

DUCKWORTH: Well, what does that have to do with Department of Defense? What does that have to do with pay raises for the troops? What does that have to do with making sure that our men and women in uniform have the equipment that they need to carry out the very dangerous jobs that we asked them to do for us, especially those who are in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and around the world right now?

This president continues to threaten to veto troops' pay raise. First, it was over Confederate monuments and bases named after Confederates, and now, he is doing it over social media platforms. If he truly cared about the troops, he would sign the NDAA, this defense budget that, by the way, passed by a great margin in a bipartisan way out of the House and the Senate.

TAPPER: CNN is reporting that since the election, President Trump has been meeting with advisers and discussing preemptive pardons for people in his inner circle, including Eric and Don Jr. and Ivanka Trump, Jared Kushner, Rudy Giuliani. What do you make of all that?

DUCKWORTH: I think it's corrupt. I think it's corrupt and I question whether it's constitutional. And it -- but it is very much in keeping with Donald Trump. He puts himself first in front of everybody else, in front of this great nation. And now, he's talking about all of his cronies and he's a pay-to-play president, and he's going to be a play president all the way until the end, it seems.

TAPPER: Democratic Senator Tammy Duckworth of Illinois, thank you so much. Appreciate your time today.

DUCKWORTH: Thank you.

TAPPER: Join me tomorrow for a CNN special event. We will have the first joint interview since the election with President-elect Joe Biden and Vice President-elect Kamala Harris. The full interview airs tomorrow night at 9:00 p.m. Eastern, only on CNN.

Finally, today, with more than 272,000 lives lost in the United States from coronavirus, today, we want to remember just two of them. A couple married for 47 years who died less than a minute apart.

Patricia and Leslie McWaters (ph), they were inseparable for half a century. They raised their children and they enjoyed time with their grandchildren, even their great grandchildren. Their daughter Joanna described their deaths as tragic and beautiful, like Romeo and Juliet, because one wouldn't want to be without the other.

Patricia was a retired nurse. Leslie, a veteran and a retired truck driver. They are remembered for their genuine kindness and their care for others.

May their memories and those of all those we have lost way too early to this pandemic, may they be a blessing.

You can follow me on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @JakeTapper. You can tweet the show @TheLeadCNN.

Our coverage on CNN continues right now. I'll see you tomorrow.

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