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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Trump Erupts at Attorney General in Meeting?; White House Holding Meetings on Presidential Pardons; COVID-19 Crisis. Aired 4- 4:30p ET

Aired December 03, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: And welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Pamela Brown.

Jake Tapper is on assignment interviewing president-elect Joe Biden and vice president-elect Kamala Harris, airing tonight at 9:00 p.m. Eastern.

[16:00:05]

But we begin this hour with the health lead, because the coronavirus pandemic is the worst it has ever been in this country by every single measurement, including deaths. More than 2,800 American deaths were recorded yesterday. That is the most in a single day ever.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. JACOB KEEPERMAN, ICU PHYSICIAN: Getting close to a breaking point. Our health care heroes are tired.

DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: This is going to be basically the bloodiest war this country has ever, ever fought.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Bloodiest war this country has ever fought.

Coronavirus has killed more Americans than U.S. combat deaths in the last five wars combined, or close to all U.S. combat deaths in World War II alone. Millions more had been infected with long-lasting effects.

Late this afternoon, the U.S. surpassed 14 million people infected with coronavirus, and right now a record number of hospitalizations too, more than 100,000 people, with hospitals running out of space.

And, as CNN's Erica Hill reports, it's only going to get worse from here.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. JORGE RODRIGUEZ, INTERNIST: We are at high tide, and the hurricane is hitting.

ERICA HILL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): New cases Wednesday topping 200,000, more than 100,000 Americans sick enough with COVID that they're now in the hospital, just over 2,800 deaths reported in a single day, records that, sadly, may soon be shattered.

DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: I'm so terrified and very anxious about what's going to happen in the weeks ahead.

HILL: Many hospitals already reaching critical levels.

GOV. LAURA KELLY (D-KS): Currently, there are zero staffed ICU beds in our state's southwest region.

HILL: It's not just Kansas.

DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, DIRECTOR, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH: More hospitals in this country are right on that edge of not being able to provide that care. That's when the number of deaths will really go up.

HILL: The CDC's ensemble forecasts now projecting up to 329,000 Americans could die by December 26.

DR. ALI KHAN, FORMER CDC OFFICIAL: We shouldn't expect something different. We're doing the same thing over and over again.

HILL: The mayor of Los Angeles urging action.

ERIC GARCETTI (D), MAYOR OF LOS ANGELES: It's time to hunker down. It's time to cancel everything. And if it isn't essential, don't do it.

HILL: Austin's mayor, meantime, one of several government officials issuing a mea culpa.

STEVE ADLER (D), MAYOR OF AUSTIN, TEXAS: I know that, in my position, I need to send a clearer message.

HILL: Steve Adler ignored his own advice not to travel, going to Mexico in November.

ADLER: I'm sorry I took that trip. It was a lapse in judgment.

HILL: Nine months in, Americans are tired and frustrated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are destroying Staten Island business.

HILL: Hundreds turning out to support the owners of this New York bar after it was shut down for violating new COVID restrictions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm just trying to support my family.

HILL: Hope is on the horizon.

DR. MONCEF SLAOUI, CHIEF ADVISER, OPERATION WARP SPEED: In the end of February, we will have potentially immunized 100 million people.

HILL: If approved, the first doses could be shipped to states in less than two weeks. Now the push is on to make sure Americans trust the vaccine.

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I may end up taking it on TV or having it filmed, just so that people know. I trust this science.

HILL: Former Presidents Clinton and Bush also confirming to CNN they will get the vaccine publicly to boost confidence, as the current president continues to ignore the raging pandemic.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HILL: And, Pamela, you heard from the mayor of Los Angeles there telling people to stay home.

Well, now we're hearing from the governor of California, Gavin Newsom, just moments ago, talking about an emergency brake for his state, noting that if in the five regions of California, once the ICU capacity hits just 15 percent, that will trigger a mandatory stay-at- home order for three weeks.

It will affect things like bars. It will affect hair salons. Retail can operate at 20 percent capacity. Schools can stay open, but, again, there's just being announced for California, that emergency brake. And that is directly to address the issue with hospitals and ICU capacity.

BROWN: Hard to believe we're at that point there in California and really across the country. And just to hear stay-at-home order, man.

All right, Erica Hill, thank you so much.

Let's bring in CNN's chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Good to see you, Sanjay.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Pamela.

BROWN: At this point, you just feel like you're the bearer of bad news, right? I mean, there's just nothing good to say, it seems, if you put the vaccines developments there aside.

When you look at the numbers, the state of this pandemic is really bad right now. How would you describe it?

GUPTA: Yes, it is. It's terrible. I mean, some of the worst predictions that you and I were talking about a few months ago are starting to come true here.

One thing I want to say about the bad news thing, though, Pamela, I think, typically, medical professionals president bad news in conjunction with a plan. And just to be clear, that's been what's been presented all along here, the bad news with a plan.

[16:05:00]

The problem is that, too many times, that plan has not been followed. So, the plan keeps changing. The disease becomes more aggressive, and it requires more aggressive treatment.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: And it's not being followed by some leaders, right, I mean, some, Democrats and Republicans alike.

GUPTA: Yes.

And I think the issue with that is, besides the obvious, that it sets a really bad example; it also gives me the sense that, despite all this, that there are people who still don't really believe it, or they think it doesn't really apply to them, that somehow they are different.

And the reality is, as we have said all along, the virus doesn't care who you are. It really doesn't. It doesn't discriminate in this way. So, if you're a leader and you decide to attend a gathering with other people, the virus will be there right alongside you, even if you're an elected official or you're not.

So, but one thing -- I have been going back looking historically at 1918, because that is the pandemic that a lot of people pay attention to. And what is sort of striking, Pamela -- and we can show the curves, these waves -- we're sort of tracking exactly what happened there.

The population obviously is higher now, three times higher. But we also have hospitals. We have ICUs. We have therapeutics. And despite that, we are tracking right along with what happened in 1918, which is kind of remarkable.

According to the models, the IHME models that everyone pays attention to, as you know, by March 1, they predict some 450,000 people will die. But what's sort of also striking about these models, once you dig down, is, they say, once the death rate in this country gets to eight people per million, this model supposes that states will reenact stay- at-home orders.

Well, we are at that level, and states are not imposing that. My point is that, as bad as the models suggest, they could be even worse, because states aren't responding the way that they should to these increasing numbers.

BROWN: Yes.

And, on that point, Sanjay, California just announced that they will issue new stay-at-home orders where there are ICU beds shortages. Los Angeles expects their hospitals will be out of beds by Christmas.

Will we see this type of bed shortage across the country?

GUPTA: I'm really worried about that.

I mean, we're already seeing it. There are 90 percent of districts and communities that are sort of in the red zone right now in terms of occupancy. Talking about regular care beds, but also intensive care unit beds. Some places have no ICU beds to give right now.

And the difference between now and then in the spring, where we saw that situation up in New York in the Northeast, where you are, is that you still had the rest of the country, right? If you ran out of staff, there were -- there were doctors and nurses coming in from Texas and Georgia to help fill those gaps. If you didn't have enough beds, you could go outside your region. You had escape hatches.

The problem, Pamela, as you can guess, with the entire country sort of on fire, what happens? The escape hatches go away. There's nowhere to sort of turn. And that's a real problem.

BROWN: So, what does that mean, then? I mean, if the escape hatches go away, what do you do if you have COVID, and you need to be in the ICU or a loved one needs to be the ICU? What happens?

GUPTA: Well, it's complicated. And none of the answers are good.

I mean, what's already happening in some places, they're basically saying, we're turning the hospital into just COVID patients. And non- COVID patients may be in field hospitals who don't require critical care, in tents or in convention centers. You are seeing that in Rhode Island, saw that in Wisconsin. You talked about California.

You have got to create surge capacity however you can. The ideal scenario would be that you got to bring the trend down, so you don't continue to have that many patients sort of flooding hospitals.

But we could get to the point where triage, in terms of what the doctors and nurses would tell somebody who's calling on the phone, instead of saying, hey, look, you're having trouble breathing, come in, they may say, until your blood oxygenation gets to this level, you stay home.

Some of that was happening in New York back in the spring. It's frightening. It's frightening for people who are having trouble to basically be told, stay home as long as you can.

But that's really the only way these hospital systems can sort of deal with this deluge of patients.

BROWN: And to bring the trend down, again, it's worth reiterating time and time again, wear a mask, social distance, wash your hands, that those basics are still the best way to defend yourself from this virus, but -- and protect others too.

GUPTA: Yes.

BROWN: Let's not forget, it's not just about you. It's protecting others.

The American Ambulance Association is warning, the 911 emergency call system is at a breaking point. We're talking about hospitals being at a breaking point. But what does this mean if 911 is at a breaking point?

If I had an emergency and called 911, would they potentially not be able to help me?

GUPTA: Well, it is possible. And I didn't think we would get to that point.

I mean, we're so used to in the United States to have these types of services. I mean, you and I have traveled to other countries around the world where you don't have that sort of dependence on other services.

And we have always had it -- I mean, not always, but we have had that sort of dependence for a long time. But you could run into a situation where it's simply triage.

[16:10:06]

And the triage starts to change. Until people are really critically ill, they may not be able to actually have those services take care of them. So it's really frightening.

And one thing about, again, just bringing the trend down, to your point earlier, what we're finding -- this is fascinating science -- but about 80 percent of transmission in our society is happening in about 10 to 20 percent of locations.

So, no -- there's no need to talk about locking down entire societies. It's really focusing on those 10 to 20 percent of locations, which are what you might guess, restaurants, bars, gyms, cafes, places of worship. And they're not even saying close those down. They're saying just limit maximum occupancy to 25 percent.

BROWN: Just...

GUPTA: Just wear a mask, limit occupancy in those types of places to 25 percent, you could start to see the trend come down.

BROWN: Fifteen seconds. How do you feel as you look ahead at the next few months?

GUPTA: Pamela, I'm worried. I'm worried about -- I think about my parents every day. I think about my friends. I'm hearing more and more about people who thought this was behind us who are still getting sick.

I'm worried. It's going to be a really tough few months.

BROWN: All right, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you.

GUPTA: You got it.

BROWN: And be sure to join Sanjay and CNN's Anderson Cooper for a new coronavirus town hall all about the vaccines. That is tomorrow night at 9:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

Should the vaccine be mandated? We're going to talk about what the head of the CDC is saying about schools and businesses and stopping the future spread of coronavirus. Plus, President Trump talked about his attorney general, Bill Barr,

the longtime loyalist who came out and said there was no widespread fraud in the election. He told the truth there.

What Trump said and what we're learning about a contentious meeting between them at the White House.

We're going to be right back.

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BROWN: In our politics lead now: It certainly seems like Attorney General William Barr is in dangerous territory today for telling the truth that he hadn't seen widespread fraud to date.

Now, in the Oval Office with a group of reporters, the president refused to answer whether he still has confidence in Barr. And sources tell CNN President Trump erupted after Barr said the Justice Department had uncovered no evidence, as I mentioned, fraud -- of fraud, widespread fraud, that would have changed the election outcome.

Kaitlan Collins reports on their worsening relationship.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With seven weeks left in office, President Trump may be on the verge of firing his Attorney General Bill Barr after he undercut his claims the election was rigged.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, he hasn't done anything. So he hasn't looked. When he looks, he will see the kind of evidence that right now you're seeing in the Georgia Senate.

COLLINS: Trump criticized Barr in front of cameras in the Oval Office today, where sources said the two had a contentious meeting this week after Barr told the Associated Press the Justice Department had uncovered no evidence of fraud that would change the election.

TRUMP: This is a -- probably the most fraudulent election that anyone's ever seen.

COLLINS: Asked if he had confidence in Barr, Trump paused.

QUESTION: Do you still have confidence in Bill Barr?

TRUMP: Ask me that in a number of weeks from now.

COLLINS: Trump is also furious at Barr because no one has been charged in the investigation into the beginning of the Russia probe. But whether he will fire the attorney general remains to be seen, and GOP lawmakers are avoiding the subject.

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): I'm sorry. When did the attorney general say that?

QUESTION: He did an interview with the AP where he said the...

MCCARTHY: I haven't seen the interview. Sorry.

COLLINS: Despite being rebuffed by almost everyone, Trump has refused to drop his claims the election was fraudulent while his legal team is sowing chaos on his behalf.

TRUMP: My team is doing an unbelievable job.

QUESTION: Mr. Giuliani, what are you doing here in Georgia?

RUDY GIULIANI, ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: You will see.

COLLINS: Even Trump's Republican allies are asking for evidence.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): To the Trump legal team, you're making all these claims. You have got to prove it. Doing a video is not proof. You need to take these claims into a court of law and get relief.

COLLINS: Instead of succeeding in court, pro-Trump attorneys appear to be focused on winning in the court of public opinion.

LIN WOOD, ATTORNEY: I want you to go to the governor's mansion. I want you to circle it. I want you to blow your horns until Brian Kemp comes out and orders a special session of the Georgia legislature!

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

COLLINS: Republican state officials say comments like that from pro- Trump attorney Lin Wood have no merit and could hurt Republicans chances of holding the Senate majority.

GABRIEL STERLING, GEORGIA VOTING SYSTEM IMPLEMENTATION MANAGER: They're just lying to people. And I really have a problem with somebody like Lin Wood, who hasn't voted in a Republican primary since 2004, telling Republicans, don't vote for the Republican Senate candidates. It's maddening.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: And, Pam, on top of all that, we have now learned that the White House liaison to the Justice Department has been banned from entering the building after she tried to access sensitive information about potential voter fraud cases, information that we're told by sources she was not privy to having access to, to relay that information back to the White House.

And now she has been nominated for a new position, according to the White House as of today, though they have not commented on this otherwise.

And you will remember, back in September, that Chief of Staff Mark Meadows sent an e-mail to federal agency heads, basically telling them they were replacing all of the liaisons from the White House to these agencies, a move that was widely seen as them trying to put loyalists in those positions, so they could be their eyes and ears in these agencies.

But now the newest one at the Justice Department has been banned from the building.

BROWN: Wow. Great reporting.

[16:20:01]

Kaitlan Collins at the White House for us, thank you so much.

Let's discuss all of this.

We have Ron Brownstein here.

First, we're going to go to you first, Ron.

What would be the point of firing the attorney general seven weeks before leaving office?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Just another statement of pique and another way to say that he has been stabbed in the back.

I mean, obviously, Donald Trump is not going to overturn this election at this point. And so many of the things that he's doing seems to be designed to allow him to wield the argument over the next several years that, no, I didn't lead the Republican party to a defeat. I wasn't defeated. The election was stolen from me.

And I think that is a critical -- he sees that as a critical lever in maintaining his influence over the party. And the irony, Pam, is that by going along with this to such an incredible extent, congressional Republican leaders still finding themselves incapable of acknowledging the obvious, that the election was not stolen, they are putting himself in a position where he will retain more influence over them and they are more likely to remain under his thumb.

BROWN: That's an interesting point.

And, Laura Barron-Lopez, Kaitlan, to Ron's point, highlighted another bizarre moment, when House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy claimed he hadn't seen Barr's interview with the AP, when Barr, of course, said that he hadn't seen widespread voter fraud to date in this past election.

I mean, what's going on here with the Republicans? How uncomfortable are Republicans right now? What does that show to you?

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It shows that Trump still has this grip on the Republican Party, and that many of us don't expect it to go away anytime soon, based on conversations with Republicans.

They very much -- as long as they see that it's to their benefit to be in line with the outgoing president, in line with his politics, as long as it's politically beneficial to them, then there's no reason to push him away.

They see him as potentially a helpful force in Georgia, although, again, Republicans are sending mixed messages to voters, to their Republican base about what they expect from them come Georgia. Trump is expected to go there to rally his supporters to try to win those two Senate run-offs.

But, at the same time, his allies are saying, no, don't go vote, talking about a rigged election system. So there's a lot of contradictory messages right now coming from Republicans.

BROWN: Right.

And what is the danger of that, Ron, the danger of Republican staying silent?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, look, the biggest danger is to American democracy.

And, really, the silence of Republicans in the aftermath of the election is, in one sense, a continuation of what we have seen throughout Trump's presidency, when they either looked the other way or actively abetted him as he has shredded all sorts of small-D democratic norms, from extorting the government of Ukraine, to weaponizing the Postal Service, to trying to tilt the census.

But I think we have entered an entirely new stage here in the post- election period. And as I wrote on the CNN Web site this week, the contemporary Republican congressional leaders are surrendering even more abjectly, even with less pushback, to Trump's poisonous conspiracy theories about the election than their predecessors did in the 1950s with Joe McCarthy.

I mean, Mitch McConnell is really deferring to Trump on this to a greater extent even than the Republican leaders did then. And it is something that is going to have long-term consequences for the democracy. And I think it accelerates the division of the country, the separation of the country, the sense that we are not really holding together as one country.

But they -- as Laura is saying, they see a short-term benefit in continuing to align with Trump, despite their clear awareness of what this must be doing to kind of the solidity of American society and politics.

BROWN: And, Laura, Gloria Borger and I are hearing from sources today about these recent White House meetings over pardons.

And multiple sources tell us that lawyers and allies of the president have been lobbying him for pardons for personal clients, him meaning the president, even people who vice president-elect Kamala Harris put behind bars as a state prosecutor. We know pardons only apply to federal crimes, but also under consideration, Jared Kushner's father.

What does that tell you? BARRON-LOPEZ: Well, again, we have seen that the Trump administration

on its way out the door is trying to get a number of things across the line, be it potential pardons for their allies, for people that they consider close to them that they could potentially insulate and help them post-White House.

They are looking to -- they're looking after those people. They're also trying to push through a number of other actions, be it trying to finish that border wall that Trump has so often talked, or reinforced fencing, in order to make things difficult for the incoming next president.

So, there's a slate of things, but including pardons to people that they consider beneficial to them or who have helped them along the way.

BROWN: OK.

And I got to ask you this, Ron, that the White House State Department planning large-scale holiday parties at the worst pinnacle of this pandemic so far. White House Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany saying yesterday, if you can loot businesses, burn buildings, engage in protests, you can also go to a Christmas party.

[16:25:05]

Has the White House simply given up on setting a good example for the country?

BROWNSTEIN: Oh, long -- many months ago.

I mean, look, and this is -- the consequences of this are not only in terms of the president's own actions and the rallies and the people who are exposed at his events, but the pressure this placed on Republican governors right from the outset to not close things down, to open things up, despite the ravages of the pandemic.

We're seeing in states like Iowa and North Dakota and South Dakota incredible infection rates and governors who are acting minimally or not at all. And that is in large part because of the pressure from the example the president has set.

He is fundamentally AWOL at a moment when the country is in crisis. He has basically said to Americans, you are on your own, even as we're looking at, as you know, death tolls that rival Pearl Harbor and 9/11 now on a daily basis

And the president has basically walked away and said, I'm worrying about myself, I'm worrying about this fantasy about overturning the election, and you are on your own to try to get through this winter until the vaccine comes.

BROWN: All right, Ron, Laura, that sums it up. Thanks so much.

BROWNSTEIN: Thank you. BROWN: Well, Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnell had a high-level

conversation today, what may be the strongest signs in months of a stimulus deal on the way.

Plus: dwindling days of presidential privilege for the Trump children.

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