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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Interview With Former Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency Director Christopher Krebs; Biden Delivers Address on Economic Crisis; COVID-19 Pandemic Raging. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired December 04, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:02]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: "Merry Christmas."

Much more to come here on "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER." I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for being with me.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

Just minutes ago, president-elect Joe Biden spoke about the jobs report out today. He called it grim. He urged Congress and outgoing President Trump to act immediately to help the American people.

The president-elect also promised more economic relief in his presidency, notably identifying hundreds of billions of dollars as his target price tag. That's lower than the $2 trillion previously pushed by House Democrats.

And as the president-elect faces more pressure to make good on his promise to build a diverse Cabinet and administration, he would not comment specifically to nominating a person of color for either the position of attorney general or secretary of defense.

Plus, president-elect Biden warns of the escalating pandemic. He promised to follow the science when it comes to his own inauguration, which will take place in less than two months. He said there will not be millions of people on the National Mall for his inauguration.

CNN's M.J. Lee is in Wilmington, Delaware, for us right now.

M.J., president-elect Biden gave more details about what exactly he's looking for in the stimulus. Tell us more about that.

M.J. LEE, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: He did, Jake.

And I should note, this was a president-elect who was not mincing words. I mean, look at some of these words that he used in his remarks, dire crisis, urgent, bleak, clearly somebody who is wanting to prepare the American people for things being worse before they ultimately get better. But you're right. When he was talking about the help that he needed

and calling on Congress one more time to act now to pass the stimulus bill, he did say, look, he is encouraged by the $900 billion proposal that has been coming out of Congress, but that that is only just the beginning.

And I thought it was really interesting that, when he talked about eventually needing more funding, he tied that directly to the vaccine distribution, that what he needs the money for will eventually go towards the vaccine distribution.

Obviously, this is the next big step that the administration is going to have to take. This will determine sort of whether and how quickly the country is able to turn the corner on this COVID-19 crisis.

And I will tell you, too, Jake, this is also why we are hearing reporters asking the president-elect over and over again, have you spoken to Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell? Obviously, last night, he told you that he had not spoken with him yet. But the reason we keep asking him that is because so much of what he's able to get done legislatively in the future Congress will have to do with his working relationship with Senate Republicans.

Obviously, regardless of what happens in the Georgia Senate run-off races, this is going to be a very closely divided Senate. And he is making very clear that he wants to work with them. He needs to work with them. And whether he's able to turn things around with this virus will depend so much on the money that he's able to get from Congress.

And, again, just saying the $900 billion just the beginning, but it is not going to be enough -- Jake.

TAPPER: Yes. And I noticed when he was asked today, if he has -- as you note, if he'd spoken with Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, he did not directly answer the question and, in fact, kind of showcased a coy Mona Lisa smile of sorts, leaving us all to wonder what that exactly meant.

M.J. Lee, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Let's discuss and they bring in Jackie Kucinich and Abby Phillip.

Abby, you heard the president-elect. He would not commit to specifically picking a person of color for the two positions, secretary of defense or attorney general, when asked by our own Arlette Saenz.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: So, looking at attorney general and the department of defense, would you commit to nominating a person of color for those positions?

BIDEN: Look, it's each one of these groups' jobs to push, push their leaders to make sure there's a greater diversity.

What I can promise you is, when this is all said and done, you see everyone that I have announced -- and it's going to be in the next several weeks -- we'll have it all out there -- you're going to see significant diversity. I'm not going to tell you now exactly what I'm going to do in any department, but I promise you it will be the single most diverse Cabinet, based on race, color, based on gender, that's ever existed in the United States of America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: I have to say, that's not a very high bar, in terms of the diversity of Cabinets of the past, with possibly the exception of the Obama administration.

But what do you make of that all?

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, I don't know that you can blame Joe Biden for not wanting to be boxed in on this issue.

It's a little bit of a tough situation that he's in, where he has all of these groups and lawmakers, black lawmakers, Hispanic lawmakers, et cetera, pressuring him to name specific people.

I mean, we're not even just talking about people saying, OK, we want you to put -- nominate a black person as a defense secretary. They're naming specific names of individuals who they'd like to see in those posts.

[16:05:08]

It's a tough position for Biden to be in. I think he's keeping his options open. But I do think that, when you look at some of the names that are being put forward, you do see a fair amount of diversity there. This is all strongly being considered. And among those that have not been selected is also Health and Human Services, which is an important position, especially now, given the coronavirus crisis.

So he has several big jobs to fill. And we know, based on our reporting, that a lot of the candidates that are being considered are people of color.

TAPPER: And, Jackie, the pressure for diversity includes ideological diversity.

A lot of the people that he's named so far are from the centrist, more moderate wing of the Democratic Party. Now, vice president-elect Harris, when I asked her yesterday, who could she point to in the Cabinet that's been named so far, who she would say is a prominent progressive, she didn't really have a name. She said, we're not there. We're not done yet. We still have a lot of positions to fill.

President-elect Biden jumped in and named -- he suggested his homeland security nominee, Alejandro Mayorkas, is a leading progressive, which I'm not sure what progressive activists think about that. Or, actually, I do. They're a little bit skeptical of this.

Do you think this is a problem for the administration? They're trying to govern from the center, even though progressives are an important, I would say even crucial, part of the coalition that got him elected.

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, they also have an eye on things that are Senate-confirmable, right?

And we have already seen that Republican senators are willing to throw a fit over Neera Tanden because of her tweets. So they know that they're going to have these battles. Some are going to be a lot -- a lot tougher than others.

But, also, I mean, so Joe Biden is someone who's not going to pick up someone to be in top parts of his Cabinet who he's not comfortable with, who he hasn't worked with, who weren't -- who weren't with him for a while, or someone who was supportive of his vision.

So, as a result, they're -- this is going to require a lot of massaging. And it might end up upsetting a lot of progressives, perhaps some of their top picks, because, like Abby said for some of the people of color that are being pushed, there are specific people that progressives want in these positions.

And whether or not they jibe with what the Biden/Harris administration wants to put forward, I mean, that is going to be the most important thing for the nascent administration.

TAPPER: And, Abby, the president-elect also talked about his vision for the inauguration. He said, it's going to look a lot more like the Democratic Convention, which was essentially all virtual.

What do you make of that?

PHILLIP: Yes, I mean, I think that at this point, he's not going to have much of a choice, just given the trajectory of this virus.

We're hearing Dr. Fauci basically saying that he doesn't think that we have even seen the surge from Thanksgiving yet. We could be in really dire straits in the country come January. And so you see Biden really signaling already that he's going to try to keep this as -- well, somewhat safe as possible.

One interesting thing, though, is that the day that he was declared president-elect, based on the Electoral College, thousands of people crowded into the streets all across the country. And that was not planned by anyone.

So, it's interesting -- it will be interesting to see whether they can control crowds gathering, whether they organize them or not, as people take to the streets to celebrate or protest or do whatever they want to do on inauguration, as we typically do in this country.

TAPPER: If we had any form of effective contact tracing in the country, it'd be interesting to find out if any of the new cases were because of that outpouring, although because of the inept way this pandemic has been handled, we don't know.

PHILLIP: Right.

TAPPER: Jackie, yesterday, I asked president-elect Biden, whether he wanted the outgoing president, Mr. Trump, to attend his inauguration. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Do you think it's important that he's there?

You're laughing.

BIDEN: I think it would -- important only in one sense, not in a personal sense, important in the sense that we are able to demonstrate, at the end of this chaos that he's created, that there is peaceful transfer of power, with the competing parties standing there, shaking hands, and moving on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Jackie, is there any world in which that happens, you think?

KUCINICH: It is hard to think that, considering the president still won't admit that he lost.

But let's not forget, I mean, there is a just such a long tradition of this. Hillary Clinton was on the stage when Trump was sworn into office as a former first lady. So, having to sit through this when you don't really want to is part of the American tradition. But we shouldn't expect the president to start adhering to norms on his way out, after the last four years, for sure.

TAPPER: Abby, you heard what the president-elect said just now and also with me yesterday in the interview about his confidence that, while it won't be easy, he will be able to work with Republicans in the Senate.

[16:10:11]

Do you think he's being too optimistic?

PHILLIP: I think -- I actually think that he's probably calibrated about right on this.

He's clear that there are going to be a lot of Republicans who are not going to come along. They have really important, really significant political constraints back home in their home states that might prevent them from doing that.

But, as he's told you last night, he's spoken privately to several Republican senators, many of whom I'm sure we know have not said publicly that they believe that he's president-elect. So that tells you a lot about, I think, what might be happening behind the scenes.

There are a lot of Republicans who are ready to work with an incoming president, someone who they might perceive to be as reasonable and to move forward with some semblance of normalcy.

I think it's also notable that, twice today, twice, he declined to say whether he had actually spoken with Mitch McConnell. So, maybe there's something going on there, there's some movement happening there. And that would be very significant, I think.

TAPPER: Abby Phillip and Jackie Kucinich, thanks to both you. Appreciate it.

CNN's chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, joins us now to talk about the pandemic.

Sanjay, take a listen to president-elect Biden just moments ago when asked if the federal government is doing enough right now on vaccine distribution.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: There's a lot more that has to be done. They've clued us into their planning on how they plan to distribute the actual vaccine to the various states.

But there is no detailed plan, that we've seen anyway, as to how you get the vaccine out of a container into an injection syringe into somebody's arm.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: No detailed plan that they have seen about how to get the vaccine out of the container into the arm. That is a terrifying statement. What do you make of it?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, if that's the case, if there is no detailed plan, or they just haven't seen it yet, I think, is going to be crucial.

Obviously, when you talk to people at Operation Warp Speed, they say that they have been planning for this for some time. And, in fact, the kits of vaccines that are going to the states should be going with syringes and bottles as well.

But, Jake, look, we got stymied by nasal swabs in this country. Distribution chains among some of the most basic things have been a problem at times. And I think probably what he's reacting to is this idea that, even if you get the vaccine there, if you don't have all the other components, it's not working in some way, then, obviously, it doesn't make a difference.

Today is the day, Jake, that states have to submit their plans to the CDC for how they plan on inoculating the residents of their state. Each state may have a different plan. And it's safe to say that there has been a lot of confusion around how this all would roll out at a national level.

TAPPER: President-elect Biden told me that he is going to ask Americans to wear masks for his first 100 days in office. Now, Dr. Carlos del Rio, the executive associate dean of Emory

University Medical School, said, if people follow Biden's plan, it could save 66,000 lives. What do you make of it all?

GUPTA: Well, what Dr. del Rio is talking about is these models, the IHME model, which we have been following since the beginning.

And that's where these numbers come from. They basically say, by April 1, I mean, there's some dire predictions in terms of how many people may die by then. But, if masks are worn, 95 percent, universal almost, 66,000 lives would be saved.

So, that's obviously very significant and much more immediate than some of the other things that we're talking about, even the vaccines. But, right now, about 70 percent of the country, Jake, says that they wear masks when they go out in public. These are obviously self- reporting, so the number may vary a bit.

But to really get the 95 percent is important.

I will just share an anecdote as well, Jake. President-elect Biden was talking about the fact that federal buildings, maybe you would have mandates to wear masks. I was interviewing Ambassador Birx at the White House two weeks ago, actually in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building.

It was a cold day outside. We were inside for the interview. And I was amazed that about less than half the people I saw inside at the White House in the middle of a pandemic were wearing a mask.

So, I think setting a tone all across the country is going to be really important.

TAPPER: The influential IHME model that you just referred to, it predicts about 539,000 Americans dead because of COVID by April, 539,000.

Now, a vaccine, according to this model, will only decrease that number by 11,000. But universal masks would significantly lower deaths more. Can you explain that?

GUPTA: Yes, I mean, when you think about the masks, you almost have to think about that as more of a surgical sort of tool here. It's going to have a much more immediate effect. You're basic stopping or at least greatly slowing down the spread of the virus.

[16:15:04]

I mean, the virus is just anxious to find host to host to host. If people were nearly universally masked, the virus wouldn't be out in the environment as much, and you would start to see a decline in the overall viral trajectory.

So, the impact of masks on this pandemic is much quicker. It's much faster. It doesn't mean the vaccines aren't important.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Keep going. I'm sorry.

GUPTA: Go ahead. I'm sorry.

Vaccines are important, but you have to get to a certain threshold. Now, people talk about herd immunity. You all always heard it in a negative way. But you can get herd immunity through the vaccine as well, as opposed to just natural infection.

That's around 60 to 70 percent with a virus that is this contagious. That's probably the end of summer. We will see impact of vaccines, probably when we get to 30, 40 percent of the country vaccinated. That just takes a while, Jake. As you know, that's going to be middle of the spring.

TAPPER: I see. So, it has more to do with universal is everyone wearing masks, as opposed to how many people will be vaccinated by April. And that's the difference.

GUPTA: That's right.

TAPPER: Dr. Fauci accepted Biden's offer to serve as his chief medical adviser. He told Savannah Guthrie he did so on the spot.

Does this give you confidence in the Biden administration being able to turn this around?

GUPTA: Yes, I spoke to Dr. Fauci after his meetings yesterday with the president-elect, and then with this action review team, which is part of the transition team.

And he said to me -- he -- this was his quote. He said: "Look, what I have experienced today is exactly how transitions are supposed to work."

And he's worked for six presidents, been through five transitions. So he's seen this a few times. And I think this idea that there's so much institutional knowledge which has been gained this year -- Jeffrey Zients, for example, was at that meeting. He's going to be the new coronavirus coordinator.

The people who've been in it from the start, they have all the -- they had the big sort of story of what's happened here, but also the nuggets of things and the details that matters. So, yes, I think it's very reassuring that someone like Dr. Fauci, who's really had the most comprehensive view of this all along, is now going to continue in that role.

TAPPER: The way things are supposed to be. That's interesting, given how much of Fauci's time with President Trump has not been the way it's supposed to be.

A president is not supposed to be undermining health recommendations, undermining the top infectious disease expert in the country.

Anyway, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks so much.

Dr. Fauci is going to join the coronavirus town hall tonight, along with Sanjay and CNN's Anderson Cooper. Tonight's special is all about the vaccines. That's must-see TV tonight at 9:00 p.m. Eastern only here on CNN.

Persuading the skeptics -- the new ad campaign aimed at urging Americans to trust the vaccine and get the vaccine.

And President Trump fired him for standing up for facts and saying there was no widespread fraud in the election. The man charged with safeguarding the election, Chris Krebs, will join me live and talk about why many of his fellow Republicans are ignoring the facts and more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:22:17]

TAPPER: In our 2020 lead today: President Trump's campaign says it has now raised more than $207 million since Election Day.

Trump's campaign has flooded supporters with hundreds of fund-raising e-mails and text messages over the past month, asking, pleading for help to overturn the election results.

Now, many of those messages, of course, packed with lies about the election being stolen, fraudulent, rigged, and in the fine print of these appeals for funds, 75 percent of the money might not go to any legal fight at all.

Let's welcome Chris Krebs. He's the former director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency at DHS, also known as CISA? Is that how--

CHRISTOPHER KREBS, FORMER DIRECTOR, CYBERSECURITY AND INFRASTRUCTURE SECURITY AGENCY: CISA.

TAPPER: CISA.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: OK. Sorry. I just -- I see it. I don't pronounce it until now.

He was fired from that role after standing up for the truth and calling out those lying about the integrity of the election.

And, Chris, let me just start with the idea that all this money is being raised by the campaign and others out there. How much do you think, as an observer, a very informed observer, that these allegations, these lies, these falsehoods, how much do you think it's just grift?

KREBS: Look, I'm not inside the head of the campaign. So I don't know necessarily what their legal strategy is or what their strategy going forward.

But it's perfectly clear to me and I think most Americans, as states across the country are certifying the votes on a daily basis, that the election is over, that we have a president-elect in Joe Biden, and we have to move forward. We have to get past this.

The damage that's been done to the American confidence in the election, I hope we're not in a point of no return. But we're going to have a lot of work to restore confidence.

TAPPER: So, pro-Trump attorneys Lin Wood and Sidney Powell, who constantly push the most deranged conspiracy theories, and -- which is saying something, because there's a spectrum of them, they held one of these stop the steal rallies this week in Georgia.

Again, this is all based on nonsense. And they actually were discouraging Georgia Republicans from voting at all in the run-offs on January 5. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNEY POWELL, ATTORNEY: I think I would encourage all Georgians to make it known that you will not vote at all until your vote is secure.

LIN WOOD, ATTORNEY: They have not earned your vote. Don't you give it to them. Why would you go back and vote in another rigged election, for God's sakes?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Now, again, as a factual matter, the vote was secure and is secure, by all evidence, and it was not rigged. So what they're saying is not true.

What's your message to Georgians out there of what whatever political stripe?

[16:25:01]

KREBS: So, the first thing is vote. Get out and vote. January 5, The run-off, whether you vote early or vote on the day of the run-off, vote.

And, look, if you have concerns, if you have questions, whether you're voting in person, confirm when you got that ballot that it represents the candidate you pick.

If you're voting by mail, make sure, again, that you're confirming that you fill out and follow the instructions. Then you can check your ballot online.

There are security measures built in to the process before, during and after to ensure the security of the votes. These claims of wild algorithms and malicious software and foreign powers manipulating it, it's just -- it's nonsense. There are measures in place. Have confidence. TAPPER: So, CISA is planning to continue publishing its rumor control

posts through the Georgia run-offs on January 1. This started under your leadership.

How much does that work when you have Looney Tunes out there spreading these lies, amplified, by the way, by the most powerful man in the world, the outgoing president of the United States, not to mention the obsequious MAGA media out there?

How much can your rumor control have an effect?

KREBS: So, the intent was never to be the end-all/be-all. We still suggest that American voters look to their trusted sources of information in elections. And those are the state and local election officials, the secretaries of state or the state election directors.

We still say, if you're in Georgia, go listen to Secretary Raffensperger. But on the edge, where we can provide information on security measures and the controls in place, that was the intent. And so I do understand that the CISA team will continue to promote -- I'm glad to see that. I think it has been effective.

And, more importantly, I think it's a model for debunking disinformation going forward. And, my gosh, with the vaccine and some of the disinfo claims that are coming out that are -- and will be coming out, it's more important that we have good, solid information out there for people to make decisions.

TAPPER: As someone who served for President Trump and, by all accounts, Democrats and Republicans on Capitol Hill, was well- respected, well-regarded, if you had five minutes alone with President Trump, what would you say to him?

KREBS: I would tell him the same thing that we kind of adopted as our as our mantra, not necessarily our official mantra, but defend democracy.

There are things more important than a four-year term. This American experiment and democracy in general is fragile. You have got to care for it. You have got to nurture it. And these constant attacks and undermining confidence are very dangerous. And I don't know what's next.

But we have got to make sure that we continue providing support to democracy.

TAPPER: It's interesting that you say that it's fragile, because I have noticed this debate out there. There are some people who say, look, at the end of the day, the system worked.

No matter what President Trump said, and no matter what some of the crazier people out there advocating for have said, like, it's -- the system worked, the vote -- the states certified the elections.

I tend to side with the other people, actually, though, just to give my opinion this, which is, the system worked, but only because Biden won overwhelmingly, and not -- if it had been 1,000 votes in one state, who knows what would have happened?

And only because of certain people who, despite their party allegiance, like you -- you're a Republican -- or the city commissioner in Philadelphia, Al Schmidt, who is a Republican--

KREBS: Yes.

TAPPER: -- or Raffensperger, secretary of state in Georgia, who's a Republican, only because of a handful -- literally, like maybe 20, 25 Republicans stood up for what's right.

I think it's more fragile than some people are saying. You were on the inside. What do you think?

KREBS: I'm not sure, right? I think it's a good question. It's an open question.

I -- on the 2020 election, to me, one of the single most important developments between '16 and '20 was removal of those machines in both Pennsylvania and Georgia that didn't have a paper trail that couldn't be audited. Pennsylvania and Georgia both implemented statewide programs to get machines that had paper.

We're not done yet, though. We need to get 100 percent paper. We need to get meaningful audits across the country. And so that's why, when I think about how we recover, how we move forward, we have to invest in democracy. We have to give more steady stream of investment to election officials. That's one.

Number two is, we have to eliminate all of these machines that don't have paper across the country. And the third, something that's important to me, as a father, is, we have got to invest in civic education in the K-12 space.

We have kind of gotten away from what democracy really is.

TAPPER: So, this week, to bring up something uncomfortable -- and I'm sorry -- but I have been there too, just as a public face during a tough time.

Joe diGenova, a campaign lawyer for President Trump, said you should be -- quote -- "drawn and quartered, taken out at dawn and shot" -- unquote -- obviously, a disgusting thing to say, an unacceptable thing to say.

He later said he was being sarcastic.

Do you believe him that he was being sarcastic?