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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Interview With Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT); Biden Announces Health Leadership Team; Pandemic Raging. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired December 07, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:03]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: A coronavirus vaccine may be approved this week for Americans, but a CNN analysis shows that the first vaccine shipments are expected to fall short of what 27 states need to vaccinate their first priority group.

And health officials say the upcoming holidays we will make this pandemic even worse.

CNN's Nick Watt reports now, as the U.S. is hitting this new rapid surge, Dr. Anthony Fauci is estimating that coronavirus in this country will get even worse in the coming weeks.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The United States just logged more than a million new COVID-19 cases in just five days. A comparison? South Korea, smaller population, sure, but, in five days, they logged fewer than 3,000 new cases.

DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Today is Pearl Harbor Day. And, on Pearl Harbor, 2,403 Americans were killed. Three days last week, we exceeded that.

WATT: The U.S. average daily death toll is higher than it's been since April and record numbers of Americans are now in the hospital.

DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Our surge right now is intensifying. It is amplifying.

WATT: Post-Thanksgiving surge hasn't even hit yet, and soon there could be another, but bigger.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NIAID DIRECTOR: With Christmas, it starts several days before. It goes through Christmas. The week after Christmas into New Year's and the New Year's holiday, I think it could be even more of a challenge than what we saw with Thanksgiving.

WATT: Sunday night a last hurrah for many restaurants in California.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know the drill, and it's the only way to survive.

WATT: Today, much of the state is back to takeout-only, back under stay-home orders.

FAUCI: They said, we feel we need to do this. What do you think? And I said, you really don't have any choice.

WATT: Because ICU beds are getting scarce, too scarce. Today, New York City reopened some schools.

BILL DE BLASIO (D-NY), MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: The parents were so happy and so relieved.

WATT: But, just hours later, a warning from New York's governor.

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): If we don't get the rate under control, and you are going to overwhelm your hospitals, we will have to go back to shutdown.

DR. JEROME ADAMS, SURGEON GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES: This surge is different than earlier surges, because it's not about PPE. It's not about testing. It's really about health care capacity. And certain places are just being overwhelmed.

We have got the vaccines coming, but we want as many people to be alive to get them as possible.

WATT: These vaccines are so new, we still don't know if people could still spread the virus even after inoculation.

FAUCI: That's possible. We're going to know the answer to that as we follow people out longer.

WATT: An FDA committee meets Thursday. A green light for Pfizer's vaccine could come by week's end.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WATT: But that first shipment of vaccine isn't going to be anywhere nearly enough to go around, not even enough for the first priority group, the health care workers and the long-term care residents.

And, meantime, we have got a problem. Here in San -- in California, in the past two weeks, ICU and hospital admissions are up by 70 percent. Right now, they're trying to hire more staff. And California has appealed to the federal government for reinforcements -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Nick, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Joining us down to discuss, the dean of Brown University School of Public Health, Dr. Ashish Jha.

Dr. Jha, thanks for joining us.

a CNN analysis found that no state will be getting enough vaccine doses for all the health care workers and long-term care residents during this first round. So, how should states determine who gets those first vaccines?

DR. ASHISH JHA, DEAN, BROWN UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: Yes, Jake, thanks for having me on.

Look, we're going to have to go through several rounds of shipments before those first priority groups get it. I think a lot of states are trying to get it to health care workers first, because hospitals are under siege, and we need health care workers to be safe in order to just continue to function.

But absolutely true that nursing homes are also a super high priority. And we have got to get that group done quickly as well.

TAPPER: One million new COVID cases reported in the U.S. in just five days, one million. And this weekend...

(CROSSTALK)

JHA: I lost you. Hello?

TAPPER: Dr. Jha, do you hear me? Dr. Jha?

All right, we lost Dr. Jha. We're going to try to bring him back. We're going to take a quick break.

And when we come back, with this pandemic hitting horrifying numbers, we are going to discuss more with Dr. Jha.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:09:07]

TAPPER: Welcome back. We have resolved the technical difficulties.

One million new COVID cases were reported in the U.S. in just five days. And this weekend marked the deadliest weekend since April.

Let's pick back up our conversation with Dr. Ashish Jha, dean of Brown University School of Public Health.

Dr. Jha, what's your message to people who may be letting their guard down because the vaccine is coming or just the general coronavirus fatigue that we're all, frankly, feeling?

JHA: Yes, we're all feeling, Jake.

And the way I describe this to folks is, we are so close to the end. Like, we have -- in a couple of months, as these vaccines really start getting out, things will start getting better. And by late winter, early spring, life will start feeling meaningfully better.

So, this is not forever. This is not for the long run. While we will continue to deal with this virus, at least to some extent, life is going to get dramatically better. And this is a time to stay protected, so you can be for that.

[16:10:00] TAPPER: New York City is sending nearly 200,000 students back to in person learning this week.

Meanwhile, Los Angeles county is halting all in person learning, which was already down to only about 4,000 students. Where is the science right now on schools being open, not the emotions, not the fears? What does the science say?

JHA: You know, the science on this right now, Jake, is pretty clear, that it is safe to get kids back to school. Schools are not a source of spread in the community. They don't seem to be -- there doesn't seem to be much in the way of spreading happening within the schools themselves.

Obviously, you need to do basic mitigation. Kids have to wear masks. Adults have to wear masks, some amount of distancing in schools. But if we can do those things, I think it's pretty safe to get kids back in. That's where the science is right now.

TAPPER: So why is there such resistance? Is it because teachers are afraid? Look, I don't begrudge them. It's -- this is a very scary situation. Teachers are afraid and, therefore, teachers and teachers unions are pushing back?

Is that why we're -- we seem to be in so many parts of the country not following the science?

JHA: Yes, I think it's complicated. I think it's complicated by the fact that it was deeply politicized. I think the president from sort of day one was just like, get them -- get everybody back in, no mitigation, nothing. So I think that sort of polarized the conversation.

The second is that the evidence on this has shifted. Over the summer, I was more cautious. But the evidence has come in that schools seem to be reasonably safe. And so I have also shifted. But I think -- I understand teachers concerns.

What I have been saying is, we need to invest in making sure that we have testing and other things that can offer assurance to people that it really is reasonably safe to get back to school.

TAPPER: Yes. But with the science there and with so many kids suffering from the lack of education and psychological support and the rest, it seems that the country really needs to pay attention to where the science is.

JHA: Absolutely.

TAPPER: CVS is urgently looking to hire thousands of pharmacists and nurses and pharmacy technicians to help administer the COVID vaccines.

Is that safe? And is that doable in this very expedited time frame?

JHA: Yes, it is. Look, first of all, I think pharmacists are probably our most

underutilized health profession. I mean, they're really well-trained. They can do a lot of this stuff. We have got to make sure that pharmacists and pharmacist techs and other people can be part of this vaccination effort.

This is going to be the most complicated vaccination effort our country's ever tried to pull off. We're doing it in a pandemic, and we're doing it during a presidential transition. I think we can do it. But we're going to have to see companies take on these complex projects, like what CVS is doing.

And I think they can do it safely.

TAPPER: Dr. Fauci says that Christmas and the Christmas holiday and families congregating together could be even more of a challenge than Thanksgiving.

How would you advise people who are debating whether or not to travel or attend small holiday gatherings with close friends and family? What should people do?

JHA: Yes, Jake, this is painful, because, essentially, it's the same advice that I was giving out at Thanksgiving, which is, there's really only one way to be really safe. And that is to have a small holiday break, again, within your nuclear family that you live with.

I know that's so painful, because holiday season is such a family- oriented thing. The key here is, you want to keep people alive, you want to keep people safe with vaccines so close by. I am worried that Thanksgiving -- I'm sorry -- that Christmas and the holidays will end up being another super-spreader event, the way it looks like Thanksgiving is, has been. We're starting to see that Thanksgiving surge now.

TAPPER: The surgeon general says that this current surge is different than the previous surges we have seen because the main issue going on right now is health care capacity.

There have been more than 100,000 Americans hospitalized with coronavirus the past five consecutive days. What needs to be done now to make sure everyone who needs care has access to it?

JHA: Yes, this is a huge problem.

I have been writing about this, that we're seeing now that hospital care is starting to get restricted for everybody, not just COVID patients. Other people are having a hard time getting hospital care, because there just aren't enough beds.

And it's not the beds, per se. It's the staffing. It's nurses and doctors and respiratory therapists. Beds are not very useful if we don't have those folks. So, part of the reason for people being careful and not getting sick right now -- obviously, we don't want people getting sick.

Also, there just may not be capacity to care for everybody who will need it over the over the next few weeks.

TAPPER: An anti-vaccine doctor is testifying on Capitol Hill tomorrow before the U.S. Senate. Can you think of any reason why the U.S. Senate should be lending credibility and a platform to somebody who is ignorantly speaking against vaccines at this point in time?

JHA: Yes, this is a problem, Jake. Senator Ron Johnson, who is holding the hearing, held a first round of hearings about two weeks ago.

I was the only test -- the person who testified about the value of science in that hearing. This is round two.

[16:15:02]

He's really finding some very fringe members of the medical community who don't represent the mainstream views of what medicine and science is. I don't totally understand why Senator Johnson is doing this. I don't think it's helpful at this moment.

We do need to have robust debates about safety and efficacy of vaccines. This is not how you do it, by bringing in the most fringe elements of this conversation.

TAPPER: All right, Dr. Ashish Jha, thank you so much.

Today, president-elect Joe Biden named the key members of his health team, with a main focus on getting the raging coronavirus pandemic under control.

And at least one of his choices would make history. After pressure from the Congressional Hispanic Caucus for more representation in the Cabinet, Xavier Becerra, the California attorney general and former longtime member of Congress, could become, if confirmed, the first Latino to ever lead the Department of Health and Human Services, as CNN's Jeff Zeleny reports for us now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President-elect Joe Biden is filling in another piece of his new administration, announcing today his health experts who will drive the nation's fight against coronavirus.

XAVIER BECERRA, U.S. HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY NOMINEE: Right now, during COVID, the last thing we need is to have Americans who are left behind.

ZELENY: Xavier Becerra is Biden's pick for secretary of Health and Human Services. The California attorney general and former member of Congress is not a medical expert, but he's led the charge defending the Affordable Care Act.

BECERRA: At a time when we're going through this COVID-19 pandemic, this is not the time to take away people's health care. ZELENY: The rest of the team also taking shape, with Biden unveiling

nominations for surgeon general, head of the CDC, and a chief medical adviser on COVID-19. That post goes to Dr. Anthony Fauci, who's become a household name as the nation's top infectious disease doctor.

FAUCI: I have worked with a lot of them. They're excellent choices.

ZELENY: Dr. Vivek Murthy, who served as surgeon general for three years in the Obama administration, will return to the position. He's been a top COVID adviser to Biden all year

DR. VIVEK MURTHY, FORMER U.S. SURGEON GENERAL: We not only can do better, but we must do better, because lives are on the line.

ZELENY: Dr. Rochelle Walensky, the chief of infectious diseases at Mass General, will lead the CDC.

DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR NOMINEE: Now is the time to redouble our efforts, to pay more attention than we ever have before.

ZELENY: Their faces became familiar ones on CNN during the pandemic. And in just seven weeks, they will be responsible for overseeing the vaccine distribution and trying to bring the deadly virus under control.

If confirmed by the Senate, Becerra would be the first Latino to serve as HHS secretary, another barrier-breaking pick from Biden.

REP. CEDRIC RICHMOND (D-LA): I think his life experiences, which we don't talk about enough, as a minority, is going to be very important in HHS as we tackle health disparities across the country.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZELENY: So, forming this new government is quite like putting a puzzle together, Jake.

So, with HHS in place, now there are two other big positions still looming. That, of course, is for defense secretary and attorney general. There are several finalists for each post. Diversity obviously is at the front of these questions, but we may hear something later this week or certainly before the Christmas holiday on both of those big pushes -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Jeff Zeleny in Wilmington, Delaware, thanks so much.

Negotiators on Capitol Hill are still trying to iron out a few major issues for a stimulus package, including liability protection for companies. Some lawmakers are firmly against it, including Senator Bernie Sanders, the independent from Vermont, who said it's like a get-out-of-jail-free card.

But Democratic Senator Mark Warner of Virginia, who's been part of the team negotiating the deal, told me he disagrees.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA): Senator Sanders, respectfully, is not involved in these negotiations. And his characterization is just not accurate.

We are looking at trying to give some level of a time-out to allow states, if they want to put in place standards we have already, for example, in Virginia, put in COVID standards. That part of the discussion is vigorous and ongoing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Here to respond is independent Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont.

Senator Sanders, what's your response to those comments by Senator Warner?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Oh, well, I have great concerns. And I share those concerns with the AFL-CIO and hundreds of organizations, who understand that, right now, workers around this country, especially in meat processing plants, have been treated absolutely shamefully.

Amazon, I think, workers in Amazon have developed some 20,000 cases of COVID. We don't know how many have died. What we need to do is to tell corporations that they have got to treat their workers in a way that is safe and healthy. They cannot be irresponsible.

And if they're -- they are irresponsible, there are going to be consequences. And if we go forward and we grant this type of immunity, what corporations are going to say all over the country is, we don't have to do anything for our workers. They can't do anything to us.

So, you're giving a green light for irresponsible behavior. That's something I don't want to see happen.

But, in addition to that, Jake, I have real concerns about this bill or this proposal, which we have not quite seen yet, to be honest with you, because it does not address the economic crisis facing tens of millions of families in this country.

[16:20:13]

We are right now in the worst economic shape since the Great Depression. And this proposal does not include that $1,200 direct payment per individual and $500 for kids that we desperately need in order to put working families back on their feet.

It would be a real help. We don't have it. I'm going to fight to see that we get that included.

TAPPER: Yes, it's not included in that compromise proposal right now.

I understand that you spoke with Republican Senator Josh Hawley of Missouri over the weekend. He is also saying that he wants that included and thinks the bill should be vetoed if it doesn't include it.

I wasn't aware that Josh Hawley was in favor of direct payments. Are there enough Republicans on your side on this, on the direct payment part of this, that it could make a difference, because, obviously, Republicans still control the U.S. Senate?

SANDERS: Well, that's what we're working on right now.

And, right now, I'm working with my Democratic colleagues to make it clear that we should not go forward unless we do what the American people want. Right now, Jake, as you well know, I mean, we got half of our people living paycheck to paycheck. Something like 20 percent of our population now is either unemployed or earning less than $20,000 a year. People are facing eviction.

Hunger is at a higher level today than any time in recent history. We have got to address those issues. And it concerns me very much that this bill is far, far, far less than the other proposals that the Democrats have brought forth.

TAPPER: Well, let me play devil's advocate for a second, because, look, I don't doubt your sincerity. And I don't doubt that this legislation could be much, much better for all the Americans in desperate need.

But the fact of the matter is, Donald Trump is still in the White House and will be in until January 20. Republicans control the U.S. Senate and at the very least will be in charge of the U.S. Senate until January 5, if not afterwards as well.

Are you making the good -- the perfect the enemy of the good?

SANDERS: No, I'm not.

Look, as you will recall, Trump himself has agreed in the past to, I believe, a $1.8 trillion bill, including these $1,200 direct payments. It's something that Trump has already supported.

We need -- what we need is a compromise. I know I can't get everything that I want. But this bill really is not a compromise. It gives the Republicans almost everything that they wanted.

And one of the interesting parts about it, as I understand it -- and I have not seen the proposal yet -- but Mitt Romney, who is one of the Republican negotiators, said that over $500 billion of this $900 billion in the bill is not new money. It's money being shifted away from the old CARES Act, money that has not yet been spent.

So we're talking about 350 billion or so new dollars, when Democrats originally talked about over $3 trillion in new money to help working families in this country. So, I don't think this is much of a compromise.

I think we have got to do a lot better and negotiate a lot harder.

TAPPER: Well, you talked about that $1.8 trillion bill that the White House, Steve Mnuchin, the Treasury secretary, was working on with the House speaker, Nancy Pelosi. The Democrats walked away from that bill...

SANDERS: That's right.

TAPPER: ... because they wanted $2.2 trillion, and they walked away from $1.8 trillion. Was that a mistake?

SANDERS: That's what I'm saying. That's exactly what I'm saying.

Here was a proposal much, much larger. Democrats said, no, that's not good enough. And now we're prepared to accept a proposal which has, I think, $350 billion in new money and which has, we believe, I believe, to the best of my knowledge, this corporate immunity language as well.

So, I -- that's my point here is that I don't think this is much of a compromise. I think the Republicans have probably got 90 percent of what they want. Our job is to fight and at least get a 50/50 deal.

TAPPER: Before you go, Senator, I want to ask you about the fact that president-elect Biden tapped Neera Tanden to head the Office of Management and Budget.

Last year, you accused her of belittling progressive ideas and maligning your campaign staff. She obviously takes issue and disagrees with that characterization.

You could be the chairman of the Senate Budget Committee if Democrats win these run-off elections in January. Where do you stand on Neera Tanden's nomination?

SANDERS: Well, we're going to give Ms. Tanden and every -- I hope, no matter which party controls the Senate -- every nominee of the president-elect, Biden, deserves a fair hearing.

[16:25:00]

All of the nominees have got to answer some pretty hard questions. And that's true from for Ms. Tanden. It's true for everybody else.

TAPPER: So you're not in favor or against right now? You're just going to give her a fair hearing?

SANDERS: That's correct.

TAPPER: Lastly, the fact is that your governor in Vermont is a Republican. Does that complicate the idea of you getting a role in the Biden administration, given that your Republican governor would replace you with a Republican, presumably?

SANDERS: No, that's not true.

Actually, the governor has said that he would replace me, if that were to happen -- and I don't know that it will. But if I became a part of the Biden administration, what the governor has indicated is, he would replace me with somebody who would caucus with the Democrats. TAPPER: Oh, OK. So, if -- so that is not a real excuse if they don't

actually offer you a position? The idea is -- because you will be replaced by a Democrat, theoretically?

SANDERS: Yes.

TAPPER: All right, Senator Bernie Sanders, thanks so much for joining us. Good to see you again, sir.

SANDERS: Thank you, Jake.

TAPPER: President Trump just compared the United States to a Third World nation. What was he talking about? That's next.

Plus: no running water, no electricity, bodies piling up, and a CNN exclusive inside hospitals battling a COVID crisis in one country where the numbers certainly do not match the images.

Stay with us.

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