Return to Transcripts main page

The Lead with Jake Tapper

Senate Republicans Invite Vaccine Skeptic to Testify; Interview With George Conway. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired December 08, 2020 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:30:01]

GEORGE CONWAY, CONSERVATIVE ATTORNEY: Well, they're doing a pretty good job so far.

I mean, they shouldn't be able to do it now. Today was an important day in -- that should have been important day in putting the nail, the last nail in the coffin of the Trump's -- Trump campaign suggestion that he won the election. It's safe harbor day, so-called safe harbor day, which is a provision in Title 3 of the U.S. Code.

It's enacted pursuant to Article 2 of the Constitution that basically says that, if states have -- in substance, if states have certified the election in their states for presidential electors, that's conclusive upon Congress. And all the states that truly matter, Georgia, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Arizona, you can go right onto Archives.gov, and you can see the certificate signed by the governors of those various states allotting their state's electors to the Democrats, to Joe Biden.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Including Republican governors.

(CROSSTALK)

CONWAY: Including Republican -- yes, Ducey and Kemp, absolutely.

This is over. This has been over for a long time. It's going to be officially over on December 14, when those electors that have been selected on those certificates actually get together in their state capitals and vote. But this cake has been big for a long time. And it's just crazy that all of this is still going on, that people are pretending and say, oh, it's likely he's won the election or even denying it, the way Trump has.

It's just gotten to the point of just delusion, a combination of delusion and an absolute mendacity for some people.

TAPPER: So, speaking of which, Senator Ted Cruz is asking the Supreme Court to take up a lawsuit in Pennsylvania challenging the state's mail-in voting, which was passed by the Republican legislature in Pennsylvania.

Cruz has offered to argue the merits of the case at the high court. Here is on FOX last night. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): So I'm hopeful the Supreme Court will step forward to its responsibility and resolve this case and resolve other cases as needed according to law, according to the Constitution, to say, this is a country where we respect the rule of law, where we follow the Constitution, not the momentary partisan swells of interest or passion you may see on either side.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Cruz always says this, and he never acknowledges that the Republican legislatures in Pennsylvania passed this law.

But, beyond that, Pennsylvania Republican Senator Pat Toomey is obviously taking the opposite approach, telling "The Philadelphia Inquirer" -- quote -- "The outcome of the election is clear. And that is that Joe Biden won the election."

Do you think there's a chance the Supreme Court might take up this case that Cruz is pushing?

CONWAY: No, it doesn't have a snowball's chance. They're going to deny the emergency application. Ted offered to argue the case. There's going to be no argument, because you don't argue emergency applications.

There is no federal issue in that case for the Supreme Court to accept or resolve. That case came from the state courts of Pennsylvania, and the issue was whether or not the article -- Chapter 77, or whatever the law was that was passing in 2019 by the -- also by the Republicans in the state legislature, whether that violates the Constitution of the state of Pennsylvania.

And the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania has -- says that it doesn't, for good and sufficient reason. And they said, in this particular lawsuit, we don't even have to get there, because this lawsuit was brought too late. If you want to challenge this law, you should have challenged it right after it was brought or before the election.

And the Supreme Court can only take cases that involve federal issues. They don't decide -- they don't get to decide what state law means. They don't get to say to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court, hey, you misinterpret the Pennsylvania Supreme -- Constitution. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court has the last word there.

There is just no federal issue in this case. There's no basis for the emergency injunction. And even if there were some kind of a basis, even if there were some kind of an argument, there is no way that any court today, after these states, including Pennsylvania, have certified their electors to the archivist of the United States, that they're going to overturn that certification and demand and order that a new election be held, which is essentially the relief that they're seeking, which is completely insane.

TAPPER: It's crazy. And then, in Cruz's home state of Texas, the attorney general of

Texas, who's facing allegations against him that are a separate matter, he's asking the Supreme Court to take up a lawsuit to overturn the election results in four other states and commonwealths, not including his own state.

Is there any merit?

CONWAY: No, no, this is the most insane thing yet.

First of all, I mean, the Supreme Court has jurisdiction to hear disputes among states. And, usually, it's for borders and rivers. The notion that the Supreme Court is going to have a litigation amongst -- where states are attacking each others' rules for choosing electors is insane.

And they are not going to do that at any point in time. And that lawsuit, I mean, I skimmed some of it. I mean, basically, it's a motion for leave to allow them to file a complaint, which the Supreme Court has the discretion to just deny, because they can just decide, we don't want to hear this case, bring it somewhere else.

[16:35:09]

The case has just lie after lie in it. For example, they say -- they talk about the ballot dumps in the middle of the night. And they say, oh, there's a one in 10 quadrillion chance, or something like that, that all these votes -- that these votes would have been so heavily Democratic, as though -- they're pretending as though the Democrats and Republicans are equally mixed in mail-in vs...

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Voting in person.

CONWAY: ... voting in person, and that the middle of the state is different -- is not different from Philadelphia.

TAPPER: Right?

CONWAY: I mean, it's crazy.

I mean, we all know -- we have watched elections for years. And we know that, oh, well, we have to wait for suburban such and so to come in, and that's heavily Republican, so we can't call it now.

We all know this. And they're peddling to the Supreme Court the notion that it's anomalous that some votes in some areas at some points in time are going to be more one-sided than others. It's crazy. And they're saying that. And they're also recycling -- I mean, to do this in the Supreme Court of the United States is -- for a member of the Supreme Court bar to do this in the Supreme Court of the United States is absolutely outrageous.

They're throwing in all the garbage allegations of fraud that the Trump campaign wouldn't even put in some of their complaints in federal district court. It's absurd and an embarrassment.

And for a public official, let alone any lawyer, let alone any member of the Supreme Court bar, bringing this lawsuit is atrocious.

TAPPER: And, lastly, state electors, as you note, on Monday are going to cast their votes and make Joe Biden's win official for the 20th time.

(LAUGHTER)

TAPPER: CNN asked Republican Congressman Jim Jordan of Ohio if President Trump should concede that day. His response was: "No way, no way, no way," because Jordan wants a battle on the House floor come January.

Does Speaker Pelosi just have the ability just to make sure that doesn't happen?

CONWAY: Well, she should.

I mean, I don't know about the parliamentary rules. But that law that I mentioned at the very beginning of our segment here...

TAPPER: Safe harbor law.

CONWAY: The safe harbor law basically says that those votes, those electoral votes in the states that file their certificates by today are conclusive. You cannot challenge their bona fides.

You cannot say, oh, the election was fraudulent. If the governor of Georgia says, these are the electors, these are Biden's electors have been elected. If the governor of Arizona, the Republican governor of Arizona, says that -- and Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, they're all saying that.

He gets -- Biden gets 306 electoral votes, and nobody's going to be able to challenge that. And they can make all the noise they want. It's an embarrassment. It's -- they are just -- they are misleading some segment of the American people that wants to believe that somehow Donald Trump can pull this off.

And it's -- the biggest election fraud of the 2020 cycle, it didn't happen in any voting booth or in any mailing drop box. It's happening now with these people peddling the lie that he won the election.

TAPPER: George Conway, thank you for your expertise and your moral clarity. We appreciate it.

Coming up: She was a COVID data scientist in Florida, but she lost her job after accusing the state of covering up the number of coronavirus deaths. Then police raided her house. What are the accusations she's facing?

That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [16:42:41]

TAPPER: We're back with our politics lead.

And some Senate Democrats criticizing their Republican colleagues for holding a hearing on the coronavirus and inviting a discredited vaccine skeptic to testify.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. GARY PETERS (D-MI): The witnesses have made many harmful inflammatory statements. Those statements include undermining a COVID- 19 vaccine, promoting unproven therapeutics, discouraging commonsense measures to stop the spread of the virus, like social distancing and masks, and even comparing physicians who support these interventions to supporters of a Nazi regime.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: It's not just Democrats.

Republican Senator Mitt Romney of Utah said today -- quote -- "It's nuts to bring that into the Senate."

CNN's Lauren Fox is on Capitol Hill for us.

Now, Lauren, how are senators responding?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Well, Jake, what you had was Democrats essentially not participating today in this hearing.

While a few members might have been listening, they were not asking questions or pressing the witnesses, in part because they didn't want to give them any more time to espouse their views.

You had the top Democrat on the committee, Gary Peters, give an opening statement, saying that while he was open to hearing other views, he did think it was the committee's responsibility, especially at a time when the coronavirus vaccine rollout is just around the corner, to build public support in science, and not sow any doubt when it comes to the efficacy of vaccines.

Now, you saw some Republicans on the committee not even participating, including Senator Mitt Romney, a Republican from Utah, who said it was -- quote -- "nuts" to have one of the witnesses, Jane Orient, testify today.

Now, Orient is someone who is a known vaccine skeptic. She's also someone who throughout the hearing today pushed hydroxychloroquine as a cure for coronavirus, something that multiple reputable studies have made clear is absolutely not a cure for coronavirus.

In fact, some studies have shown it can actually hurt patients. Now, I pressed Senator Ron Johnson, who is the chairman of this committee, why he thought it was essential to hold this hearing today. And I asked him to respond to some of the criticism he had received from his colleagues, including Republican Senator Mitt Romney.

He told me, essentially, that he thinks it's important to have a wide view of some of the ideas out there. He also told me, on Romney's criticism specifically -- quote -- "I don't listen to criticism that's made out of ignorance" -- Jake.

[16:45:09]

TAPPER: All right. Lauren Fox, thank you so much.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are you doing? My children!

POLICE: Come down the stairs, sir!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My children up there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: This video tops our national lead. It's a video from the home of Florida's former COVID data scientist as her house was raided by police. Rebekah Jones was fired in May for insubordination. She accused Florida's government of covering up just how bad the pandemic really was in Florida.

Now, she claims the raid was retaliation from the governor, Ron DeSantis, as CNN's Drew Griffin reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They haven't gone out, they haven't gone out!

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They came with guns drawn, a camera in the halfway showing the moment Florida department of law enforcement officers raided Rebekah Jones' Tallahassee home.

POLICE: Police, come down now.

GRIFFIN: All these over an unauthorized text message allegedly sent to an internal system at the Florida Department of Health.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You just point a gun to my children.

GRIFFIN: The officers say Jones refused to open the door for 20 minutes. She says she was getting dressed. They did not make an arrest but seized computers and phones and thumb drives that Jones says contain evidence of corruption at the state level.

REBEKAH JONES, FORMER DATA SCIENTIST, FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH: On my phone is every communication I've ever had with someone who works at the state who has come to me in confidence and told me things that could get them fired.

GRIFFIN: A search warrant affidavit obtained by CNN says someone accessed the state emergency planning system and sent a group text to more than 1,700 recipients urging state workers to speak out before it's too late, a system uses an app Ready Op (ph) and everyone uses the same user name and password, yet according to the warrant investigators traced the IP address of the message to Jones's house.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Did you send that text on that system?

JONES: No. I haven't had access to any symptoms at DOH for over six months. I'm not a hacker.

GRIFFIN: Last night on CNN, Jones claims the raid, the investigation is nothing more than Governor Ron DeSantis using police to shut her up.

JONES: This is just a very thinly veiled attempt of the governor to intimidate scientists and get back to me while trying to get to my sources.

GRIFFIN: A spokesman for the governor insists the governor's office had no involvement, no knowledge, no nothing of this investigation.

Jones who helped build Florida's online coronavirus data dashboard was fired in May in what she argued was retaliation for her refusal to fudge the numbers and minimize the scale of the outbreak. Emails obtained by CNN showed Jones pushed back against instructions to limit access to raw data on the state's dashboard.

I'm not pulling our primary resource for coronavirus data because he wants to stick it to journalists, she wrote, referring to another official. State officials say she was fired back in may for insubordination and making changes to the state's COVID-19 dashboard without input or approval.

According to Ron DeSantis at the time said this.

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): She was putting data on the portal which the scientists didn't believe was valid data.

GRIFFIN: Jones filed a whistleblower complaint and launched her own online dashboard of Florida coronavirus data. A website that she says was operated from one of the computers officers seized Monday.

JONES: DeSantis needs to worry less about what I'm writing about and more about the people who are sick and dying in his state and doing this to me will not stop me from reporting the data, ever.

GRIFFIN: Governor Ron DeSantis has faced stiff criticism for his handling of the virus, refusing to order shutdowns, institute mask mandates, and some say downplaying the numbers of Floridians who become sick and dying.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRIFFIN (on camera): The Florida Department of Law Enforcement is offending this raid but, Jake, big questions as to why it took place in the first place. This all amounts to accessing a state computer system with a user name and a password that a lot of people share, so you couldn't even consider this a hack. We'll find out more if and when anybody is charged in this investigation -- Jake.

TAPPER: And, Drew, Jones detractors points she has a history with law enforcement. What can you tell us about that?

GRIFFIN: Yeah, she has 2019 misdemeanor charge of stalking. It involved allegedly posting pictures of a boyfriend online. That case is still pending. She said it was part of an internal blog with abused women. That case continues.

TAPPER: All right. Drew Griffin, thank you so much.

Coming up, why some of Joe Biden's fellow Democrats are raising concerns about his pick for secretary of defense. That's next.

(COMMERCIKAL BREAK)

[16:54:37]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

TAPPER: We have breaking news for you now. As you know, President Trump, his allies and sycophants all over the country have been attempting to overturn the results of a democratic, free and fair election. And we have the U.S. Supreme Court weighing in right now on one of those many attempts.

Let's bring in Jessica Schneider who can tell us more.

Jessica, this is from Republicans in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania trying to invalidate their own election results because Joe Biden won the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

[16:55:08]

What did Supreme Court say about the case?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jake, the Supreme Court denying wholeheartedly all of these efforts by Republicans in Pennsylvania to invalidate the vote there, to block the certification.

This is really a fatal blow to the Republican effort. This was a simple message from the Supreme Court. It was a one-line order. It was unsigned saying that all of the relief they sought was denied.

And this is important because this is the first time since November 3rd that the Supreme Court has weighed in on an election dispute. There are several other matters pending right now at the Supreme Court, but the Supreme Court weighing in before 5:00 on what, of course, is safe harbor day. This is the day that by federal law, the certifications have to be finalized and this is -- these certifications are what the House of Representatives have to take into account. It's what electors have to take into account with the electoral meets on Monday. So, this is significant from the Supreme Court. It is unsigned but

there are no noted dissents here of these nine justices. And, Jake, it's interesting, because this morning, the state of Pennsylvania responded to this effort by Pennsylvania Republicans and, you know, they put it that if the Supreme Court had granted this relief, it would have been one of the most dramatic disruptive invocations of judicial power in the history of the republic.

And, obviously tonight, the Supreme Court not going there and denying this relief, issuing that fatal blow to Republicans -- Jake.

TAPPER: Yeah. Obviously, I'm grateful, as a former Pennsylvanian my parents no longer have to worry about everybody trying to take away their legal vote.

So, thank you to the U.S. Supreme Court for not disenfranchising my mom and my dad.

Also breaking moments ago, President-elect Joe Biden officially nominated retired Army General Lloyd Austin, the former commander of the U.S. Central Command to be his secretary of defense. If confirmed by the Senate, Austin would be the first black American to lead the Defense Department. But some Democrats are already pushing back because Austin needs a congressional waiver to be confirmed to the historically civilian post.

CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr joins me now.

Barbara, despite the concerns, Biden is now explaining why he picked Austin. Tell us what you're learning.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, Jake. Writing in "The Atlantic", the president-elect wrote a detailed defense of his Austin selection saying, in part, it's because General Austin has proven to work well under pressure. The first pressure Austin may face is getting confirmed by Congress.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STARR (voice-over): Retired four-star General Lloyd Austin will be the first black secretary of defense if confirmed by the Senate. President-elect Joe Biden selecting the general he's known for years.

GEN. LLYOD AUSTIN, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to introduce to you, the vice president of the United States, Mr. Joe Biden.

STARR: But Biden's first commander in chief decision to nominate Austin may run into a political buzz saw on Capitol Hill. Austin needs a congressional waiver as required by law because he has been out of the military less than seven years. The top Democrat on the Senate Armed Services Committee put his marker down in 2017 after a waiver granted to James Mattis, President Trump's first secretary of defense.

SEN. JACK REED (D), ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Let me be very, very clear. I will not support a waiver for any future nominees under the incoming administration or future administrations.

STARR: Now, Reed says he would like to hear from Austin on why he should get a waiver.

Concern also from other Democrats that civilian leadership of the military remains the norm and there isn't an unexpected cozy relationship with generals still on duty.

Senator Richard Blumenthal also opposes a waiver. Three other Democratic senators are uncertain.

Choosing another recently retired general to serve in a role that is designed for a civilian just feels off, said Congresswoman Elissa Slotkin, who knows Austin from her time at the Pentagon.

Austin is a historic choice for a military that, for decades, has struggled with diversity. Just 19 percent of the enlisted force is black. Just over 8 percent of the force are officers, according to the Pentagon.

Austin is a highly decorated combat veteran. Much of his recent career focused on Afghanistan and Iraq where he led the 2011 withdrawal. The deeply reserved onetime four-star now must become a public political figure, dealing with Russia, China and convincing Congress to cut defense spending.

But a former battle buddy thinks he is very much up to the job.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lloyd is a very introverted, thoughtful, ethical and courageous soldier and individual. He is as smart as a whip.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STARR (on camera): The two men know each other quite well and their relationship dates back to when Austin was in command in Iraq and Beau Biden, the president-elect's late son, was on General Austin's staff -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Barbara Starr at the Pentagon.

Our coverage on CNN continues right now.

[17:00:00]