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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Supreme Court Set to Rule on Election Lawsuit; Interview With Operation Warp Speed Chief Adviser Dr. Moncef Slaoui; Trump Pressuring FDA to Approve Vaccine Faster?. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired December 11, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:03]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Now, Dr. Hahn is now disputing the story, which was first reported by "The Washington Post."

But sources say the authorization was already expected tonight or tomorrow, with the Trump White House hoping to ship out the first doses within 24 hours. But health experts are warning that this is going to be a long process to widely distribute a coronavirus vaccine, taking months, and that the pandemic could get drastically worse before then.

In just moments, I'm going to speak to the head of Operation Warp Speed, Moncef Slaoui, about the Pfizer vaccine rollout and when you and your kids can expect to get vaccinated.

But, first, let's bring in CNN White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins.

Kaitlan, what are you hearing happened during this call between White House Chief of Staff Meadows and Dr. Stephen Hahn of the FDA?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, so, as this call was going on, the president was publicly lashing out at Stephen Hahn on Twitter for not getting this done faster. And he was also having his own staff and his chief of staff lash out at him privately, because we're told that Mark Meadows did call Dr. Hahn this morning and was basically complaining that, if they did not get this coronavirus authorized, this emergency authorization granted by the end of the day, he may not have a job.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. STEPHEN HAHN, COMMISSIONER, FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION: Thank you, Mr. President.

COLLINS (voice-over): The job security of the FDA commissioner now in question, after the White House chief of staff told him to be prepared to resign if his agency doesn't grant emergency use authorization of Pfizer's vaccine by the end of the day.

Sources say Mark Meadows called Dr. Stephen Hahn this morning, after President Trump spent the week venting that the U.K. had already rolled out vaccines. Top government health officials have said emergency authorization is in the works.

ALEX AZAR, U.S. HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: The FDA informed Pfizer that they do intend to proceed towards an authorization for their vaccines.

COLLINS: But things aren't moving quickly enough for President Trump.

Today, he called the FDA "a money-drenched, big, slow turtle on Twitter," adding: "Get the damn vaccines out now. Dr. Hahn. Stop playing games and start saving lives."

Tension has been building between the White House and FDA for weeks, leading to multiple meetings between Meadows and Hahn, where the FDA commissioner has denied he was pressured.

HAHN: The same I think is being sort of pressured by you, although you're not really pressuring me, Sanjay, with asking questions about why it takes us so long. I think it's a natural question. I don't mind being asked that. So, no, I don't think it's any different than this.

COLLINS: After Meadows warranty could be fired, Hahn issued a statement, saying it was "an untrue representation of their call," and that "the FDA was encouraged to continue working expeditiously."

Stewing from behind closed doors today, President Trump had multiple targets in his sight, in addition to the FDA, including Joe Biden, Barack Obama, his attorney general, and congressional Democrats.

Trump's Twitter feed turned into a grievance session, as he appeared to acknowledge he won't be in office much longer, complaining: "The Biden administration will be a scandal-plagued mess for years to come."

Trump's spokesperson said that wasn't a concession, but a reference to his latest effort to overturn the election.

BRIAN MORGENSTERN, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: I think that was a -- sort of couched in terms of if, in fact. But I don't think he was conceding anything in particular. He's still litigating his case in the courts.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Now, Jake, back to what's going on with Dr. Hahn.

When you talk to FDA officials, they basically describe this extremely difficult situation that they have been put in, where they are trying to walk a fine line between getting this vaccine approved quickly, but not undercutting public confidence in the vaccine, given reports like the one that Stephanie just laid out there.

So, Dr. Hahn has said they will not approve a vaccine that regulators have not said is safe and effective. But then, on the other hand, here at the White House, people are questioning, what is the logic in firing the FDA commissioner, in the middle of a pandemic, with six weeks left to go with Donald Trump in office? And, Jake, that really seems to be a question that remains to be seen if it will be answered and whether or not Dr. Hahn will ultimately be fired.

TAPPER: And you just heard Dr. Offit, who's on the FDA advisory committee, who said he expected that Hahn was going to OK this today or tomorrow anyway, so there's no need for what Offit called saber- rattling and I could think of a couple other words for.

Kaitlan Collins, thank you so much.

Also breaking this hour, we're behind the curve. That's what one top public health official told CNN about the lack of messaging on the COVID vaccine from the federal government.

CNN's Sara Murray has this new reporting.

And, Sara, this comes after we saw the first members of the public get the coronavirus vaccine on camera in the U.K. this week. What more are you learning?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. We did see it.

And everyone watched that video. And, as of earlier this week, there really wasn't a plan to do something similar in the U.S. And that really lines up with some of the frustrations we have been hearing from public health organizations and from state officials, who say, for months, we have heard that there was going to be this big federal effort to educate the American public.

We saw the federal government ink a number of these pricey contracts designed to be these public awareness campaigns. And state officials and some other public health officials really feel like they haven't seen the fruition of that.

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And when we are on the cusp of shots going into arms, they're particularly concerned. States are especially concerned because they haven't had additional money coming into them from Congress. So, they're saying, look, we not only have to educate our residents about how effective and how safe this vaccine is, but we also have to explain to people where they can get the vaccine, when they can get the vaccine.

And they don't feel like they have had the kind of support that they need from the federal government.

And from the federal side, officials at Operation Warp Speed and HHS insist that this campaign is starting up, perhaps a little bit more quietly than we originally thought. They point to officials doing media interviews. They point to events at the White House, and they say that a bigger, more robust paid media campaign is going to be under way beginning next week. A lot of folks are concerned, though, that could already be too late.

We have seen the private sector stepping up to try to fill the information void. There are pharmacies that are putting out signs saying, essentially, we don't have this vaccine yet, check back later. We have seen the Ad Council say that they're going to have a big ad campaign.

So there's still a lot that's unknown. And, obviously, what we have seen from the president today is not helping the public confidence around the vaccine, Jake.

TAPPER: I would imagine not.

Sara Murray, thank you so much for that reporting.

Joining me now is the head of Operation Warp Speed, Moncef Slaoui.

Thank you so much for joining me, Dr. Slaoui.

DR. MONCEF SLAOUI, CHIEF ADVISER, OPERATION WARP SPEED: Thank you.

TAPPER: So, I don't want to put you in the position where you have to respond to a phone call between Mark Meadows, the White House chief of staff, and Dr. Stephen Hahn at the FDA. You weren't there. And I don't want you to put you in an awkward position.

But I do want to just ask this simple question. Are you concerned that this story that the White House is pressuring the FDA could undermine confidence in a vaccine that you feel very positive about?

SLAOUI: Yes, I think there is an opportunity there for people to see undue pressure, if the story is right.

I just heard before this that Dr. Hahn said that it wasn't a true reproduction of what happened. But I can say, because I watched the -- all the event yesterday, is that it was an outstanding set of discussion, presentations by the FDA, presentation by Pfizer.

The discussion that the advisory committee had, they really honed on very important questions around the age, also around potentially the -- people that have very severe allergies. And the whole country could, for the whole day, see that this was an effective, transparent, thorough, in-depth review.

And now the FDA clearly is in the very last steps of approving. They may approve today or tomorrow. They will approve when they approve. I don't see the reason for any pressure, if that has happened. But, as I said, I wouldn't be able to know whether it has happened or not.

TAPPER: Right.

But what -- I guess here's the question, because it's so important that so many people, that at least 70 percent of the American public get this vaccine. What do you want the American people to know about this vaccine, if they are skeptical? Maybe they don't trust President Trump. Maybe they don't trust Dr. Fauci. Maybe they are -- they're black Americans. And they're historically --

they're aware of the hideous history of the Tuskegee experiment and doctors using blacks as guinea pigs. What do you want us to know?

SLAOUI: Frankly, I would say two words, keep an open mind and transparency.

The ask from people is, please keep an open mind. The ask from us, from the FDA, from all those involved is 100 percent transparency of the data, of everything, every single thing that people will look into.

Experts on the other hand, independent from the VRBPAC, the FDA, Operation Warp Speed, should look into the data and say what they think. And I feel very confident, as they do that, that they will explain that this vaccine has exceptional, exceptional efficacy, has excellent safety profile that's comparable to many approved vaccines, and, therefore, that it should be used in the populations that have been identified.

And I think the experts that voted yesterday voted very favorably for the vaccine. And I assume those that voted against it, at least some of those that did, did so because of the age brackets, 16 to 18 years of age, as the discussion supported.

So, that's what I would say. Please allow yourself to be exposed to the data and the information before making up your mind. Now, if you do that, it's very likely you will be convinced.

TAPPER: And let me caution people out there, just because somebody is on Twitter and claims they're an expert does not mean they actually know what they're talking about.

Do some research as to who that person is, where they got their medical training or their training in immunology. Make sure people claiming to be experts are actually experts before you listen to them.

I also want to get your reaction to Sara Murray's...

[16:10:02]

SLAOUI: Thank you for that, Jake.

(LAUGHTER)

TAPPER: Well, it's important in this day, where there's this great democratization of megaphones.

SLAOUI: Yes. Yes.

TAPPER: I want to get your reaction to Sara Murray's reporting about serious concerns about where the U.S. stands right now when it comes to messaging to convince Americans to take the COVID vaccine.

We ran a report yesterday from Tennessee, where Elle Reeve talked to a pastor who is very negative about this, based, purely, by the way, on ignorance. He doesn't know what he's talking about. But there are other reasons people are skeptical.

What's your response to the fact that the messaging campaign does appear to be behind schedule?

SLAOUI: Listen, we have made sure that we -- for the last, frankly, what, two months, we are present in the media to discuss what we have done.

The messaging, the specific messaging around the data relevant to the vaccine can only be done once that information is public. We can't talk about it when it's not public and when the agency has not said, the performance of the vaccine is this and that and its benefits outweigh its risk, et cetera.

Now that that's the case, we have to go out there. We have to engage with all the leadership at all levels in our communities to help explain the features of the vaccine, its performance, and hopefully engage with people and convince them.

But we couldn't -- frankly, we couldn't do it effectively before, because we couldn't be very specific.

TAPPER: Right, of course. You can't say the vaccine is safe if the vaccine hasn't been approved yet and you haven't examined it.

SLAOUI: Exactly.

TAPPER: That makes perfect sense.

But the world did get to watch this week in the U.K. when the first Brits got their coronavirus vaccines. I imagine that was very reassuring to people to see people getting the vaccine, doing well, saying it didn't even hurt.

Is there anything like that planned in the U.S.? Will President Trump, for example, get the vaccine on camera to assure his supporters that the vaccine is safe?

SLAOUI: Frankly, I don't know whether President Trump will take the vaccine.

I note that President Trump was infected not long ago with coronavirus. And that's a situation I think where his physician would need to really advise on, because it's kind of different to be a known person that has been infected and has received passive antibodies. Those are -- could be all things that potentially can impact the immunization process.

However, I can tell you that there are plans to have people being immunized. I would like to be immunized at the right moment when my turn, in terms of prioritization, in public. I would like my family to be vaccinated, in order to demonstrate to the people that we're walking the talk, we are -- we believe this vaccine is safe, and the vaccines that will follow, if they're approved, they will be approved on the basis of being effective and safe, and, therefore, we will take them. TAPPER: So, the FDA advisory groups, they looked at it, but they

didn't make judgments, I believe -- correct me if I'm wrong about this -- they didn't make judgments about whether or not the vaccine should be -- is safe for kids 16 or under, pregnant women, people with allergies to vaccines and to medications.

When are we going to find out about them? I suppose pregnant women and children are of most concern to viewers right now.

SLAOUI: So, clearly, there were no data in pregnant women of any relevance to be able to specifically recommend the vaccine for pregnant women. There were no data in children of any significance below the age of 16, and particularly below the age of 12.

Actually, Moderna has just announced that they started a large adolescent study stage-wise to go for that indication. However, the -- what the what the advisory committee was asked to vote on is whether the vaccine was safe and effective in people aged 16 and above.

And the vote was positive. Now, therefore, that it is inclusive of people that are between 16 and 18, I believe is going to be the FDA's decision -- and I don't know what their decision will be -- to decide on that bracket of 16 to 18.

Clearly, the companies are going to need -- and we are supporting them -- to study these vaccines in people that are at 18 to 12, 12 to 5 or 6, 5 or 6 to 2, and 2 and below. And that goes stage-wise.

And we need to have more than 1,000 to 2,000 individuals per group to be able to document the immune response and also the safety of the vaccines in those populations.

TAPPER: So, the pharmaceutical companies are going to need to do testing with those groups, with kids? Is that what's going to happen?

SLAOUI: Absolutely.

[16:15:00]

TAPPER: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

SLAOUI: ... started today.

TAPPER: Oh, it started today. OK.

A senior administration official tells CNN that most governors have informed you at Operation Warp Speed that they expect to use up all of the vaccines that they're getting, 2.9 million doses, within days of receiving the first shipment.

So, what happens then? When will states be able to get more vaccines?

SLAOUI: So, the plan is to ship vaccines once a week and to inform the governors a week in advance about the number of doses that they will be receiving. Those vaccine doses that they receive are meant to be used in full in the population during that period of a week, because the same states will receive an identical number of doses, in the case of Pfizer vaccine, three weeks later to give as a second dose to the recipients of the first earlier.

The number of vaccine dose shipped is going to increase week on week because of the ramp-up in manufacturing at Pfizer. And also, hopefully, when the Moderna vaccine gets approved, if it gets approved next week, there will be quite a significant further dose of vaccine to be distributed.

So, maybe in the first week, most of the vaccine doses will be injected within three or four days. But, thereafter, I think it will take a week.

I'd like to note that, in the U.K. I just learned this morning -- I have interactions with my U.K. counterpart every other week in depth -- 2,000 people have been vaccinated in the first two days. I think that's an appropriate pace, if I exemplify one significant state, it would be equivalent to the U.K., just to see how things are ramping up, are going.

Today, for instance, there was also training that 3,300 people have attended and live training on video to educate people on how to dilute the vaccine, how to prepare it for immunization, et cetera.

And then they will practice and start slow and then ramp up.

TAPPER: Moncef Slaoui, thank you so much for what you do. Thanks so much for your time today. Really appreciate it.

SLAOUI: Thank you for having me.

TAPPER: OK. Go, Birds.

Any moment, the Supreme Court could weigh in on a lawsuit critics are calling a coup attempt on behalf of President Trump. And that's next.

Plus: Millions of Americans are on the brink, no jobs, no food, many about to be evicted. How close is Congress to finally reaching a deal to help the desperate American people? That's ahead.

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TAPPER: At any minute, we could hear the U.S. Supreme Court's decision on this deranged lawsuit from the Texas attorney general challenging the election results of four states that president-elect Joe Biden won.

Today, believe it or not, 20 additional House Republicans announced their support for that crazy lawsuit, bringing the total number to 126, much to the Republican Party's embarrassment and shame.

Let's discuss.

Abby, legal experts on both sides of the aisle, credible ones, have resoundingly said that they think the Supreme Court, even though they have three Trump-appointed justices, will resoundingly reject this challenge, being as it's nuts. So, why are all these House Republicans signing on to it?

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It's the same reason that they will not say a cross word about this president. They have to show their loyalty and their allegiance.

In each and every one of those districts, for the most part, you have Republicans who are reliant on a base that effectively worships President Trump. They can't cross him on this. And the whole point of a couple of days ago, there was a letter sent out to members urging them to sign on to this, and it was partly because there is a desire for the president to see who is behind him.

He's asking to see the names, the list of names, so that he can hold accountable the people who are with him or against him. This is nothing more than the president showing off his political muscle, proving to Republicans that he's going to be a political force to reckon with right now, as well as potentially in four years, if he does decide to run again.

TAPPER: So, conservative legal experts, conservatives, have called this lawsuit garbage, insanity. I don't know one who has said even anything holding back at all. I mean, it is truly embarrassing.

And you could go into detail and find examples of how nuts it is, just the idea that they didn't understand -- pretend to not understand, the Texas attorney general, that the votes that came in, in the middle of the night between Tuesday and Wednesday were largely vote by mail, and Democrats used that disproportionately.

They pretend like, oh, it's such a mystery. It's evidence of fraud.

It's not. We were saying for weeks before.

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right.

TAPPER: Jackie, is there any point when any of this backfires on -- forget President Trump, outgoing President Trump -- on these House Republicans?

I mean, just as an anchor, I can say, how am I supposed to take anything any of these people say seriously ever again?

KUCINICH: You know, it's unclear if this will backfire on them, because, to Abby's point, if you're someone in a Trump district who loves President Trump and thinks everything he says is true, you're rallying to these lawmakers and think it's a great idea.

Now, the people I'm most confused about are the lawmakers from Michigan, Georgia, Pennsylvania who signed on to this.

(LAUGHTER)

KUCINICH: Because they haven't really squared how, if this whole election was corrupt, why they should be in the seat that they're in.

(CROSSTALK)

[16:25:00]

TAPPER: What, you mean they haven't resigned? They haven't resigned, Jackie?

KUCINICH: Right?

TAPPER: I would think intellectual consistency, they would demand, oh, I was elected fraudulently. I need to resign.

(LAUGHTER)

KUCINICH: Totally. But that they haven't really squared that, but they're not going to.

And those are the folks, I just wonder if there's going to be any kind of repercussions from voters come in two years, assuming they don't resign out of being intellectually honest.

TAPPER: And, Abby, look at this headline from PBS. I don't want to -- I don't want to embarrass our friends at PBS.

But the headline says: "Texas-led election lawsuit becomes conservative litmus test."

I love PBS, but there's nothing -- there's nothing conservative about this.

PHILLIP: No.

TAPPER: The brief is a joke. It destroys any concept of states rights.' If it became law -- it's not going to it's not going to be upheld. But if it were, it would mean from now on New York can sue Alabama because New York doesn't like Alabama's voter I.D. requirements.

This is only about loyalty to Trump, right?

PHILLIP: It is totally the opposite of a conservative ideology that you could literally just say, hey, I'm the state of Texas. I don't like what they are doing over there in Georgia. I'm going to sue to not only take it to the Supreme Court, but have the court throw out every single ballot that was cast in that state.

None of that has anything to do with ideology. This is a party, the Republican Party, that has walked away from a lot of the things that have characterized the party, small government, alliances overseas, all kinds of things that had characterized the party, or they wanted to characterize the party, limited spending, bringing down debt, so on and so forth. It's not about any of those things anymore. It's about whatever

President Trump wants it to be about. That's why the Republican Party's platform in 2020 was effectively whatever the president says it is. They didn't even bother to do a platform, because it was about the personality of President Trump.

TAPPER: Yes.

Oh, and let me just -- somebody just got in my ear. It wasn't actually a PBS headline. It was an Associated Press headline that appeared on the PBS Web site.

My apologies to PBS. I love my friends from AP, but that headline was ridiculous.

Abby Phillip, Jackie Kucinich, thanks to both of you. Appreciate it.

PHILLIP: Thank you.

TAPPER: How a single medical convention in Boston led to more than 300,000, 300,000 coronavirus cases around the world.

Stay with us.

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