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The Lead with Jake Tapper

U.S. Cybersecurity Agency: Hackers Had Access Since At Least March; Sources: Biden Expected to Name North Carolina Environment Official to Run EPA; +913K Ballots Already Cast in Georgia Senate Runoff Races. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired December 17, 2020 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ALEXANDER MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Russians managed to slip in through trusted software.

[16:30:04]

Through this software that was put out by this company called Solar Winds. It is widely used across the private and public sector, and that is -- that is how Russia managed to get in there without raising the alarms, and they were very careful to cover their tracks.

So, they are in these systems now and Joe Biden, when he comes into office, is going to take over agencies and departments with the Russians currently in their networks.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: So, you say that about the Russians. And I know U.S. government officials, they're the ones who are fingering and saying the Russians were behind this.

What's the evidence that the Russians did this?

MARQUARDT: Well, we heard nothing from the president. We have seen the secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, acknowledge this is an ongoing effort by the Russians. He said that to Breitbart News.

This has all the hallmarks of a Russian operation. This is an attack on what they call the supply chain. Russia has done this in the past.

We also know that Russia carried out an attack on the cybersecurity firm FireEye, and I was told that all of this is linked -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Alex Marquardt, thanks so much.

Joining me now to discuss, the former White House cybersecurity czar and author of "The Fifth domain," Richard Clarke, who has worked for three presidents.

Richard, good to see you again.

Put it in perspective for our viewers just how bad this hack was. RICHARD CLARKE, AUTHOR, "THE FIFTH DOMAIN": Jake, this is the largest

espionage attack in history. This is as though the Russians got a pass key, a skeleton key for about half the locks in the country. Think about it that way.

Yeah, it's 18,000 companies and government institutions scattered around the U.S. and the world. Now, this is an espionage attack. As far as we know, the reason they got in was to steal information from the U.S. government. And the way they got in meant they also got in to a bunch of private companies.

I've been dealing all week with private companies. So, they're afraid that they're the target. They're not. Unless they're a defense manufacturer or something like that, they're not the target. But they're collateral damage.

And if the Russians ever want to get back in and destroy those companies, destroy their networks, destroy all their software, they probably can, because they probably succeeded, once they got in through this trusted pathway, they probably put in backdoors that will be very, very hard to find.

TAPPER: So, what can the Russians, assuming that it was they who are, in fact, behind this, what can they do with the information they have? What's the risk here?

CLARKE: Well, they did not get into classified, secret or top secret networks yet, as far as we know. So they found whatever you can find on an unclassified network in the federal department. Some of that is interesting and some of that, combined with classified information, will tell you something.

But what they really did was they got access to these networks so had an in a few crisis, they can throw -- they can put a knife to our throat and say, oh, yeah, you want to retaliate? You want to do something in Syria, you want to do something in Ukraine? How would you like 18,000 of your companies wiped out, all of their networks wiped out?

They did this before to the Ukraine. They did it in 2017. And those collateral damage then that wiped out U.S. companies. And three of those companies that we know of were Merck Pharmaceutical, Merck Shipping, Mondelez Food, just those three lost $1 billion in operating costs and remediation costs. Insurance companies had to pay for most of that.

But what we really need to do now is to say to the Russians, this is out of bounds. This is too much. This is indiscriminate. You don't get to do it that way.

And the only way they'll take that seriously, Jake, is if we hurt them.

TAPPER: And how would you propose that be done? A counter cyberattack or something -- or sanctions? What needs to be done? Obviously, President Trump hasn't even said a word about this, much less retaliated. What would you recommend?

CLARKE: Well, pretty much play out of the sanctions playbook. Are there any more sanctions we haven't done? We could do them.

But I think we have to risk a tit-for-tat retaliation at the time of our own choosing, doing something that hurts them. That may be through a cyberattack.

We can't just take this lying down. And so far, that's what the Obama administration did, and that's what the Trump administration did. The good news is that we're going to have a new cyber czar. Congress has just passed a law creating the Office of the National Cyber Director in the White House. That person has to be experienced in national security, has to know offense as well as defense to manage this ongoing cyber war.

[16:35:06]

TAPPER: And, Richard, "Politico" is reporting that the National Security Administration which maintains the U.S. nuclear weapons stockpile was also hacked.

Now, what is the worst case scenario of that hack?

CLARKE: It's an unclassified system, Jake. So, nothing about nuclear weapons was hurt there or was lost there. They probably found out more about our environmental clean-up plans at nuclear facilities than anything else. So, that sounds alarming, that they're in the nuclear agency. And perhaps they found out some things we did not want them to know but they did not access information about nuclear weapons.

But that's not the point. They're doing things which are out of bounds. They're doing things which are excessive. They're setting themselves up to destroy systems if they ever want to and that has to stop. It's going to take us years to clean up the mess that they made in the last few months.

TAPPER: So, Tom Bossert, who was once homeland security adviser to President Trump, he wrote in a "New York Times" op-ed today, quote: President Trump is on the verge of leaving behind a federal government and large number of major industries compromised by the Russian government. He must use whatever leverage he can muster to protect the United States and severely punish the Russians, unquote. Ambassador Bossert goes on to urge the Biden and Trump teams to work together on this.

Are you surprised that President Trump hasn't said anything about this, much less acted in any way to respond?

CLARKE: Well, Jake, come on. The president hasn't done anything since he lost the election, except whine about losing the election. So, no, it's not surprising.

But he is leaving behind most federal government agencies now penetrated by Russia. When we have the Iranians penetrate the Navy's unclassified network a few years back, it took two years to get them out. When you have this kind of control, they became the administrator of these networks.

When you have that kind of control, you can create high places in the network that are almost impossible to find.

TAPPER: And, lastly, Richard, who was responsible for preventing this from happening to begin with?

CLARKE: Well, every company is in charge of defending its own security, but the best companies I consult with, companies that have spent a huge amount of money on cybersecurity, none of their cybersecurity programs and applications worked against this.

TAPPER: Oh.

CLARKE: The Russians figured out a way of doing it that defeated all those systems.

TAPPER: Terrifying.

Richard Clarke, thanks so much for your expertise. Really appreciate it.

As President Joe Biden makes a couple of new cabinet picks. It's one of the last ones which may be his trickiest choice yet. We'll explain. That's next.

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[16:42:19]

TAPPER: We are back with the 2020 lead.

Today, sources tell CNN that President-elect Biden is expected to select Michael Regan, a North Carolina environmental official, to head the EPA. Regan would be the first black man to head that agency. In addition, New Mexico Congresswoman Deb Haaland is expected to be nominated for secretary of the interior. She would be the first Native American cabinet secretary ever. Though, as CNN's Jeff Zeleny reports, one key cabinet position is still looming.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT: It's a cabinet that's battle-tested, qualified, experienced, creative, innovative and forward looking.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: It's also a cabinet with key vacancies that President-elect Joe Biden is still scrambling to fill. None bigger than attorney general and deliberations over who Biden will nominate have emerged as the most complicated of the transition.

CNN has learned that top contenders are Judge Merrick Garland and Alabama Senator Doug Jones. Garland, whose nomination to the Supreme Court by President Obama was blocked by Senate Republicans. He's seen by allies as politically independent and unassailable, at a time when rebuilding trust to the Justice Department will be critical. Jones has a strong civil rights record from his prosecution of the

Klan in Alabama and he's a long-time, loyal friend to Biden. Those are the competing questions, a top Biden ally tells CNN, someone perceived as above reproach or someone closer to Biden?

The attorney general's role is complicated by any fallout from the post-Trump era and by the federal investigation of Hunter Biden's business dealings. The president-elect defended his son again this week.

REPORTER: Are you confident your son Hunter did nothing wrong?

BIDEN: I'm confident.

ZELENY: But even saying those two words could create a problem for a new president who has pledged to stay out of Justice Department's decisions.

All this, as Biden appearing in his first campaign ad as president- elect.

BIDEN: Georgia, I know things are tough right now, but I want you to know help is on the way.

ZELENY: Trying to help Democrats win two runoff races that will determine control of the Senate.

Meanwhile, CNN has learned Biden will nominate New Mexico Congresswoman Deb Haaland as interior secretary. If confirmed, she would be the first Native American cabinet secretary. He's also selected Michael Regan who runs the North Carolina department of environmental quality to lead the EPA.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZELENY (on camera): Now that choice of Congresswoman Haaland makes Speaker Pelosi's majority down to three in the House.

Jake, another interesting development here as you talked about yesterday, the Biden campaign manager Jennifer O'Malley Dillon, was taking some heat, for raising spicy language, describing Republicans on Capitol Hill, in fact, using the "F" word to describe them. She walked those comments back a little bit today, saying she did not necessarily mean to say that.

[16:45:04]

But she did support the underlying statement that she was saying before, that, look, Republicans simply have been obstructionist to Democrats. She got one piece of defense, though. Hillary Clinton came to her aid saying, what are we talking about all this language here after four years of President Trump? Jake?

TAPPER: Yeah, not to mention more than 300,000 dead Americans in the pandemic.

Let's discuss.

Laura Barron-Lopez, let's start with you, and the attorney general decision. Biden is reportedly choosing between Judge Garland, seen as an impartial, while his son Hunter is under investigation, and then there's also someone that President-elect Biden is close, to Senator Doug Jones, he is a civil rights hero, but he does have that friendship with Joe Biden.

You know, it's a tough decision, but I could see points for either man, I guess. What do you think?

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. What I've heard from a number of senators or lawmakers is more in the Doug Jones camp, which is a lot of them also feel that Doug Jones is confirmable, that he wouldn't be that controversial as well, which is clearly a point that Biden's team think is clearly in Merrick Garland's favor.

And the only thing about Doug Jones is that in the civil rights groups that I've spoken to, civil rights leaders have said that they actually would be okay with Doug Jones because they feel he has been strong on those issues and strong on racial justice.

A number of black lawmakers said they would prefer a black attorney general. But right now, between those two, from the people I'm speaking to, I think there's a bit more leaning toward Doug Jones.

TAPPER: Ayesha, Biden is really talking about how diverse his cabinet picks have been so far and the latest ones, CNN is reporting Biden is expected to pick the first black man to ever serve as EPA administrator, the first Native American to serve as interior secretary.

Listen to what Biden has had to say about his cabinet and the diversity.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: By the end of this process, this cabinet will be the most representative of any cabinet in American history. We'll have more people of color than any cabinet ever. We'll have more women than any cabinet ever. We'll have a cabinet of barrier breakers, a cabinet of firsts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Now, that's empirically correct, Ayesha. I wonder, though, if you think he's saying this, at least in part because it seems he's likely to pick a white man as attorney general.

AYESHA RASCOE, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, NPR: Yes. And, you know, as I said earlier, that is what a lot of the civil rights groups did want a black attorney general. They wanted -- not only that, they wanted someone who would be not just someone who upholds the status quo. Some of the people I talk to say, look, yes, we want -- not only do we want people of color, but we want, especially in the Justice Department, we want change. So, we don't want to just bring in the same old faces, or the same people that will uphold what has been the status quo. They want -- they want more dramatic change.

But, of course, Biden is not necessarily, and certainly with the makeup of this cabinet -- although it is very diverse, a lot of what we are seeing is kind of bringing the old gang back together. People he is close to, and people he -- people who served in the Obama administration. So, you're seeing more of that rather than maybe fresh new faces.

TAPPER: And, Laura, three House Democrats have been tapped to go to the Biden administration, Fudge, Haaland and Cedric Richmond. That would leave Speaker Pelosi with only 219 Democrats. That's a very slim majority.

What impact might that have?

BARRON-LOPEZ: Well, it can have a big impact, especially -- even though they are expected to be still in their seats when Congress votes for House speaker, so it likely won't impact her vote to lead the caucus, but what it will impact are the big bills that come and face Democrats afterwards, apologies.

So it will impact whether or not they're able to pass police reform, whether or not they're able to pass immigration bills, and if they have the votes or will have to compromise more with Republicans, because it will take time to fill those seats.

TAPPER: So, Biden would have a slim majority in the House, very slim and likely Republican control of the Senate unless Democrats can win these two Georgia run-offs.

How will this affect Biden's governing, Ayesha? Will he be able to get anything major done?

RASCOE: That's what he's betting, this argument that he makes. But it's going to be very difficult.

You know, he's going to be working -- either way, he's going to be working with very tight margins. You know, he's saying he will be able to work across the aisle.

[16:50:03]

We have not seen this in the past two administrations. We just have not seen this, you know, what Biden seems to want to go back to is where you can do these big bills, big energy bill, a big, you know, criminal justice reform bill and get all of the support.

We have not seen that. But he's saying that he, with his knowledge of the Senate, with his knowledge of the way Congress works, that he will be able to reach across the aisle and get this done. But it will be a huge test of his presidency if he will be able to actually achieve some of these things that he's talked about.

TAPPER: And, meanwhile, we don't know what's going to happen when the House and Senate convene to accept the electoral college votes.

Today, Majority Whip John Thune, number two Republican senator, said he hopes that no Republican senator objects to the election results on January 6th. He said it wouldn't be good for the question and, quote, it's time to be done with this. This is something of a shift from Republicans refusing to even recognize the president-elect, but, Laura, it's still not clear what's going to happen and how many House Republicans and maybe Senate Republicans object to the electoral college results.

BARRON-LOPEZ: Right. Senators have been urged not just by Thune, but Majority Leader McConnell not to do what we're hearing House Republicans are going to, at least a number of them, which is object to those results. It just speaks to, as we've talked about so many times, Jake, this hold by Trump on the Republican Party. Them feeling as though he's still politically benefits them and not being willing to accept the reality that Biden won.

And again, what that does is impacts these voters that -- actually, these Trump voters who think that Trump didn't lose the election, and it further sows that distrust of the electoral system.

TAPPER: Laura Barron-Lopez and Ayesha Rascoe, great to see both of you. Thank you so much.

Coming up next, Democrats specifically targeting a new group of voters in the Georgia Senate runoff. That's next.

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[16:56:54]

TAPPER: Just four days into early voting in Georgia and more that 913,000 ballots have already been cast, ahead of the state's two runoff Senate races.

Now, that's not far off from the million mark set at this point before last month's general election. The results on January 5th will decide the balance of power in the U.S. Senate. And both Democrats and Republicans are going after every vote possible, including newly eligible young voters, as CNN's Kyung Lah reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It has taken 18 years for Valerie Ponomarev to finally get here.

VALERIE PONOMAREV, 18-YEAR-OLD GEORGIA VOTER: I've been looking forward to this day for so long. I'm just so excited to see what my vote is going to accomplish.

LAH: Ponomarev is just turning 18, one of the thousands of Georgians too young to vote on November 3rd but able to vote for the first time in the January 5th Senate runoffs.

Why you hear the two candidates talk directly to them. JON OSSOFF (D), GEORGIA SENATE CANDIDATE: The bottom line is victory in Georgia comes down to young people in Georgia.

LAH: And the issues those voters care about.

REV. RAPHAEL WARNOCK (D), GEORGIA SENATE CANDIDATE: When we do something about student debt, we will unleash the power of the American economy.

Let's get out here and do it.

LAH: Grassroots group Georgia STAND-UP says the youngest voters maybe the difference maker, 18 to 24-year-olds made up 12 percentage points of Georgia voters in November, a small group. Joe Biden won the state by less than one point.

ARIEL SINGLETON, LEAD ORGANIZER, GEORGIA STAND-UP: That vote right there for any candidate is going to be one that makes the difference because, as you see, when they show up, they show out.

LAH: Like Ariyana Gooden, who wanted to vote after a summer of Black Lives Matter activism and now finally can.

ARIYANA GOODEN, 15-YEAR-OLD GEORGIA VOTER: I just want to be part of this group of young people voting to make a change, make a difference.

LAH: That belief drives students for tomorrow. These young activists have backed Democrat Jon Ossoff as they brainstormed how to boost youth energy in the runoffs. They say they registered 3,000 new voters who will turn 18 between Election Day and January.

EDWARD AGUILAR, STUDENTS FOR TOMORROW: That is an extremely sought- after group. We're talking voters out of thin air.

LAH: Michael Gusto (ph) wanted to vote for the Republicans but --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It feels like my entire group, my demographic, are just completely written off.

SEN. KELLY LOEFFLER (R-GA): We will win.

LAH: The Republican senators have been far less specific about targeting young voters, but they may be looking at November exit polls that show 43 percent of 18 to 24-year-old Georgians voted for Donald Trump, 12 percent more than their peers nationwide.

MADISON TATHAM, : A lot of my friends are Republicans. It's nice seeing them get all excited about voting.

LAH: At the Save America event in Atlanta, 18 and 19-year-old Republicans say they're not to be overlooked.

What is it about Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue that draws you to vote to them, to vote for them?

GAVIN SWAFFORD, 19-YEAR-OLD GEORGIA VOTER: They're constitutional conservatives. I know for a fact that we may be outnumbered, but our will is strong. Our will is strong to come out and vote.

LAH: Now, in a signal of the importance of the youth vote, at least to the Democrats, 33-year-old Ossoff has campaigned where they congregate, on TikTok. He opened his account earlier this month, and one of his videos, Jake, garnered 1.4 million likes. The question is whether those media likes will translate into votes.

TAPPER: Kyung Lah in Atlanta, thanks so much.

Our coverage on CNN continues right now.