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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Interview With Rep. Adam Kinzinger (R-IL); Pentagon Anxiety Over Trump's Final Days; First Latino Senator to Represent California as Governor Newsom Picks Alex Padilla to Fill Harris' Seat; 1.6M Ballots Cast in Georgia Senate Runoff Races, Rivaling State's Voter Turnout for Presidential Race. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired December 22, 2020 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:32:31]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Well, President Trump's unpredictable behavior and his continuous false tweets saying that the election was rigged is causing a rise in anxiety at the Pentagon.

Sources tell CNN that some senior military leaders are trying to steer clear of the White House right now away from Trump's orbit. Many admit they just don't know what he might do.

CNN's Barbara Starr has been talking to her sources there.

Barbara, the idea of Trump using the military to change the election outcome seemed outrageous at the Pentagon until just a few days ago, right?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think, still, most people that I know think any chance of using the military in the election goes directly to being an illegal order. And that's really at the center of all of this.

If the president wanted to order something, it must be a legal order. That is the only thing that the U.S. military follows. And from the top down, from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs on down, they have been saying that there is no role for the U.S. military in the outcome of the election.

This is domestic politics. The U.S. military doesn't do it. So what's different right now? Well, we have once again retired Lieutenant General Mike Flynn, fired national security adviser, once the head of the Defense Intelligence Agency, meeting with the president after he openly talked about the notion of martial law, the notion of using the military, a conversation that now takes him directly into the Oval Office with the president.

Listen to what Flynn had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GEN. MICHAEL FLYNN (RET.), FORMER U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: He could immediately, on his order, seize every single one of these machines around the country, on his order.

He could order the -- within the swing states, if he wanted to, he could take military capabilities and he could place him in those states and basically rerun an election in each of those states.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STARR: Reuse the military to rerun the election

At this point. I have talked to any number of people. Nobody can figure out how exactly that might be legal. And we even have the U.S. Army leadership, the chief of staff, the top general and the civilian leader, who's a Trump appointee, issuing a statement a couple of days ago, saying there is just no role for the military in this election -- Pamela.

BROWN: All right, Barbara Starr, thanks so much.

And joining me now is Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger of Illinois. He is also an Air Force veteran and lieutenant colonel in the Air National Guard.

[16:35:01]

Congressman, thanks for coming on.

What do you make of what we just heard from Barbara, that Pentagon officials are worried that -- about what the president might do in his remaining days in office?

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): I think they're right to be worried, to be prepared.

I mean, I agree with Barbara that I don't think it's going to happen. But what I worry about in the bigger term is how the military has been politicized. I mean, if you -- I actually was thinking about it the other day. Every one of the institutions of government have been delegitimized.

The CIA now is political. The FBI now is political in people's minds. The Supreme Court is political, all these institutions. The last one that enjoys widespread bipartisan support is the military. And this is like the last straw, trying to politicize the military.

I mean, you know Twitter's not real life, but I have seen on there people saying things like, people are in -- the Pentagon must be in the pocket of the Chinese, or the Pentagon has been planning this overthrow with Trump for a long time.

And it's really, really frightening, I think, in the long term for this country.

BROWN: These are democratic institutions you mentioned that are -- that have been undermined, that have been under attack, and now including the military.

Why are we just hearing from you on this? Why aren't we hearing from more of your Republican colleagues on this?

KINZINGER: I wish I could answer that.

I mean, I -- there are some that...

BROWN: Do you talk to them? Do you try to talk to them and tell them to speak out?

KINZINGER: I try to.

But I think there -- as we all know, some are taking the approach of: I don't need to say anything. The president's out January 20.

Some are taking the approach of: This is a great opportunity to get retweets and followers by fighting for President Trump and saying that we're going to contest the election results on January 6, even though Congress really has no role to do that. But they're convincing people that somehow we can magically, without any court decision and any proof of these allegations that are thrown out, just make Donald Trump president again.

And, quite honestly, there are people that have spoken out, but I wish -- we need to all speak out, because there is a real, real danger of this -- of this whole thing falling apart, quite honestly.

BROWN: When you say whole thing falling apart, what do you mean?

KINZINGER: I mean, that -- so, democracy hinges on the fact that you think your vote counts, right?

So, what's going on now is, on the one hand, half of the country -- or a significant part of the country is being told that it was all rigged, your vote didn't count. The other half has been -- is feeling that there may actually be an opportunity or that there may be a threat to overthrow the election results, even though I don't think that's going to happen.

And so what happens is, when you feel that disaffected, you turn to other methods. And I don't think we're going to see violence in the near future, but what I do worry about is, as this continues, and the dark, evil conspiracies on the Internet continue to thrive, that this will turn violent, and it will turn to where the biggest enemy is not the Chinese or the Russians or the terrorists. It's the people across the street from you that think differently.

BROWN: Well, and that -- that goes to the point of you're saying you have talked to some of your Republican colleagues who sort of shrug it off and say, well, Trump's going to be out of office January 20.

First of all, he's not going away. He still has millions and millions people on his Twitter feed that he reaches out to that listen to him. And it's really the ripple effect of this.

There has really -- there haven't been many Republicans speaking out. And this is not a surprise, what is playing out right now. Looking back, even before the election, the president was forecasting

this. Do you wish you had spoken up more and said more and tried to galvanize Republicans more on this issue?

KINZINGER: Well, I just think you have to check the tapes and see I have.

But, I mean, is there more you can do? I guess. But, like, I was very clear about this from the very beginning, any attempt to say the election won't be legitimate or to delegitimize the institutions.

And the problem is, too many people look at Twitter. They have to pick a tribe, because, if they ever do something, as a Republican, it's a Republican, the left hates you. If you do something that the right hates, you just end picking a tribe and you can't even think logically anymore.

And so I'm going to continue to just be outspoken and do what I need to do, because bottom line is, I didn't get in this for any kind of fame or job. It's because I was called to do the right thing for this country.

BROWN: Right.

And you're right. You had spoken out before, but you have certainly stepped it up since the election, since we have seen all of this played out.

I want to talk to you about this Russian cyberattack. President-elect Biden this afternoon slammed the Trump response to this Russian cyberattack, saying the Trump administration was caught off-guard and unprepared.

Do you agree that this has been a failure of President Trump's part?

KINZINGER: I don't know, because we don't know enough about how this got in, why we didn't detect it. We know it's been there since at least March.

What could we have known? But I will say, what I am like blown away about was the president minimizing this and saying it might have been China or it wasn't as big as we're saying it is.

First off, we're pretty darn sure it's Russia. And it's much bigger than anybody's saying it is. So, I don't understand that.

But, in terms of who is to fault, I just don't know yet. There's really a lot nobody knows about this. I don't even think we know the extent of how big this is right now.

[16:40:02]

BROWN: But what are the implications, the consequences of the president himself not calling out Russia on this? And then you have -- we heard from the president-elect today and what he said on it.

KINZINGER: I think the implications are big.

I mean, President Trump's gone in a few weeks, so I don't know what the lasting impact is. But I do know that I have talked to our allies all around Europe. I'm the ranking member on the European Subcommittee on Foreign Affairs. And they're shocked at why, on the one hand, the U.S. has pretty good Russian policies, but the president can't say much about Putin.

I don't have the answer to that. But I will just tell you, there has to be a massive retaliation to this, a proportional retaliation, or it's going to keep happening.

BROWN: All right, Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger of Illinois, thank you for coming on.

KINZINGER: You bet. See you.

BROWN: Well, the battle for control of the Senate may come down to voter turnout -- the latest totals and how new political ads may sway the numbers up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:45:25]

BROWN: And we are back now with the politics lead.

This afternoon, California Governor Gavin Newsom announced his selection to fill Vice President-elect Kamala Harris's open Senate seat.

California Secretary of State Alex Padilla will be the first Latino senator to represent the state in Washington. Padilla is the son of Mexican immigrants, and he became emotional when Newsom offered the position.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEX PADILLA (D), CALIFORNIA SECRETARY OF STATE: I'm honored, man. And I'm humbled, because of them. I can't tell you how many pancakes my dad flipped or eggs he scrambled trying to provide for us and the many, many years of my mom cleaning houses.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Padilla's term will run until 2022.

Well, more than 1.6 million people have already voted in Georgia's runoff Senate races. That number has rivaled Georgia's turnout in the presidential race when 1.9 million ballots were cast at this same point before Election Day. The winners on January 5th will determine control of the Senate.

I want to bring in CNN's Ryan Nobles. He is in Atlanta.

So, how are the candidates reacted, Ryan, to the stimulus bill just passed in the Senate?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pam, it's impossible to turn on the TV here in Georgia and not be hit with political ads, like this one that was launched this morning by David Purdue.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AD ANNOUNCER: Jon Ossoff opposed to pass COVID relief and encouraged Democrats to block additional aid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOBLES: Now, that's David Perdue criticizing Jon Ossoff in the way that he responded to the first round of COVID relief. Now, to be clear, Ossoff said that he did support the first round but had a problem with the way funds were dispersed through the CARES Act.

Now, Ossoff and Perdue have traded barbs back and forth about the handling of coronavirus in general. Ossoff claiming that Purdue just hasn't done enough.

I asked Ossoff this morning if he would have supported the COVID relief bill and this is what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JON OSSOFF (D), GEORGIA SENATE CANDIDATE: I would have voted for it because relief is eight months too late, but $600 is a joke. Yes, I would have voted for the deal, and day one, I'll be ready to work for more direct economic relief for the people, because folks have rent that's overdue, credit cards maxed out, prescriptions they can't afford, college bills coming due, and people are hurting through no fault of their own right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOBLES: So, you can see this has become a very big issue, Pam. Both Republicans and Democrats understand the impact coronavirus has had in Georgia and they're both trying to hold each other accountable how they're going to respond to it. Democratic candidates saying that the Republicans aren't doing enough. Now, the Republicans accusing Democrats of being obstructionists -- Pam.

BROWN: It's back and forth.

Well, the Georgia runoff election is January 5th, one day before Congress counts Electoral College votes. Have the Republican Senate candidates in Georgia weighed in on a potential challenge to that process?

NOBLES: Well, this is a pretty interesting situation for the candidates in Georgia, Pam, because they are the only ones who are currently on a ballot prior to this decision that has to be made on January 6th.

Now, both David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler have not been clear as to where they stand in terms of whether or not they will object to the Electoral College votes.

Now, we should be clear that there really is no chance this is going change the impact of the November election. But still, it's become a flash point for Republicans and we learned today that Governor Brian Kemp believes he does not have the authority to appoint anyone to David Perdue's Senate seat after his term expires January 3rd, that's because his term will be over and he won't be in the position to replace him in between the time that the runoff results are certified.

Now, Kelly Loeffler, on the other hand, she is going to be in that position on January 6th no matter what, because her term continues.

Pam, both have refused to say where they stand when it comes to objecting to the Electoral College votes -- Pamela.

BROWN: All right. Ryan Nobles, thanks so much, live for us in Atlanta.

And up next, a human vaccinated nurse joins me live on why getting the shot had her in tears.

We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:54:05]

BROWN: Well, a shot of hope for this nurse right here, and now, some 614,000 others in the U.S. who have received a COVID vaccine.

This is Arlene Ramirez. Yesterday, she was the first to get the new Moderna vaccine at Long Island Jewish Valley Stream Hospital where she had COVID back in March and she lost her father to coronavirus during the peak in the New York.

And Nurse Arlene Ramirez joins me now. She's also the director of patient care for the hospital's emergency department.

Arlene, thanks for coming on the talk about this. We watched you right here on THE LEAD get the vaccine yesterday around this time. It's now been a full 24 hours. How are you feeling?

ARLENE RAMIREZ, DIRECTOR OF PATIENT CARE, EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT, LONG ISLAND JEWISH VALLEY STREAM HOSPITAL: Feeling great. I only have a little bit of arm soreness, just like if I would have received the flu vaccine. Otherwise I feel fine. Still very emotional and excited about this, but otherwise, physically fine.

[16:55:02]

BROWN: Emotional and excited. Emotional in a lot of ways. You talked about losing your father after he spent 36 days in the ICU at the same hospital where you work. We're showing a picture of him right here.

How bittersweet is it for you to get a vaccine that could save so many other lives? RAMIREZ: Very bittersweet. But at least, you know, it brings hope. It

brings hope that there will be no more, no more lives lost. No more families ruined, pulled apart, no more illness, and that there is light at the end of the tunnel, right? And that we will have better life. Very bittersweet.

BROWN: Better life. That's the way to look at it.

And after having coronavirus yourself back in the spring and watching your father go through what he went through, what do you want to tell others who haven't had your experience and who may be hesitant to get a vaccine?

RAMIREZ: Well, we know that everyone endures the COVID symptoms very differently.

There are those that have severe illness, and there are those that have minor symptoms. But the reality is that it's a tremendous risk. It's -- a lot of people have fought for their life. A lot of people lost that battle. Why take that risk?

Here we have hope in a little vial that may lead us to eradicate this horrible disease that we know is -- at least we know exactly what it's bringing, right? You might get 24 hour fever. You might get 24 hour headache. We know what's coming.

With COVID, you don't know. You don't know if you are going to make it out. You don't know if you are going to be able to take another breath. You don't know if you are going to have sequellae afterwards.

So why take that risk? I believe that what we should be fearing is COVID, not the vaccine. That with it comes so many things, so much hope that we will have better life.

BROWN: And --

RAMIREZ: And that we will be with family members.

BROWN: You hit on such an important point. You don't know -- it's basically Russian roulette. You don't know if when you get COVID, how it is going to hit you.

What was it like for you? And do you still have any lingering effects that we hear about?

RAMIREZ: It was horrible. I don't ever want to go through that again. As soon as I had the opportunity I jumped on the availability of the vaccine. And it was two weeks of fever on and off. It was two weeks of gasping for air. I didn't know if I could breathe and if I wanted to cough, be able to take a breath, vomiting, diarrhea, headaches, I did not know when it would end.

It was -- it was severe illness and to look into my family's eyes every time they would see me, and their helplessness, it was horrible. I definitely don't want to endure that again. Not at all. And I don't want to be a vector of disease for anyone else. I don't

want to put anyone else at risk either. And that's what this Moderna vaccine brings. It definitely decreases the risk and 95 percent efficacy that I won't go through that severe illness again and that I will bring it home, so there is no way. And that's meaningful to me.

BROWN: Just to think how this journey started for you with you getting COVID early on in the pandemic, losing your dad to COVID and now being the first in the U.S. to receive the Moderna vaccine really incredible.

What is your message to others right now? We're seeing -- we're just days from Christmas. We're seeing record hospitalizations.

What is your message to people who may be debating holiday gatherings, go out shopping as you see more cases come into hospitals like yours?

RAMIREZ: Yeah, we're seeing increase in cases now. And it is so scary that we're not protecting each other. I know how important it is to spend, you know, these special holidays with family.

But that's exactly what we need to do. We need to secure the next holidays with our families. And we do that right now by social distancing, by wearing a mask.

Let's give up this holiday so that the next holiday, we can spend it with all our loved ones, securely and safely.

BROWN: OK. Arlene Ramirez, thank you so much again for coming on and for taking the time to talk with us.

RAMIREZ: Thank you very much. And stay safe.

BROWN: All right.

And, finally, we want to take a moment to pat face on one of the 320,000-plus deaths from this pandemic.

Robert Travilion (ph) was a Chicago paramedic more than 20 years, assigned to ambulance 71. He was diagnosed with COVID about a month ago. His coworkers say that they will miss his smile every day. But they have gained a guardian angel to watch over them.

His work family took a moment to remember him, setting their station flags at half mast at his old post. Our love and thoughts are with him and his loved ones.

Our coverage on CNN continues right now.

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