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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Nancy Pelosi Appeals to Vice President Mike Pence to Invoke the 25th Amendment or Congress May Impeach Trump; First Trump Cabinet Secretary Resigns Over Capitol Riot; Total of 94 Arrests Reported So Far in Capitol Hill Riot. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired January 07, 2021 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Senate Minority leader in saying that the 25th Amendment to the Constitution should be invoked by the cabinet to remove the president. Pelosi saying, if not, Congress may decide to impeach the president.

They made the announcement after Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger of Illinois who called for the president's cabinet to invoke the amendment for quote, "the sake of our democracy". Fed lies by President Trump, Republicans in Congress including Senators Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley and the House Republican leader Kevin McCarthy, plus the MAGA media, an angry mob was whipped into a frenzy yesterday. President Trump, Donald Trump Jr., Rudy Giuliani incited the crowd before they went to storm and terrorize the capitol.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country. So let's walk down Pennsylvania avenue -- you'll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong.

DONALD TRUMP JR., SON OF DONALD TRUMP: Stand up and fight! Stand up and hold your representatives accountable!

RUDY GIULIANI, ATTORNEY TO DONALD TRUMP: And if we're wrong, we will be made fools of. But if we're right, a lot of them will go to jail!

(CHEERS)

So, let's have trial by combat!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Trial by combat. Take back our country. You have to show strength. Stand up and fight. Those are the words the terrorist mob heard from President Trump and his allies before they followed the president's instruction and walked down Pennsylvania Avenue to the Capitol, and began doing this, storming the capitol of the United States of America.

A violent insurrection under the false pretenses that the election was stolen. It, of course, was not. Spotted in the crowd, amongst the Trump flags, several shirts and tattoos suggesting neo-Nazi beliefs. President Trump has not only not condemned the violence or the Nazis, yesterday in a video, he told supporters, quote, "we love you."

Lost a bit in the news of the insurrection yesterday, Democratic Senator-elect Jon Ossoff won his Georgia runoff race, giving Democrats control of the Senate and the house and the presidency, yet another indication that the Republican Party's embrace of Trump has turned off many Americans.

In the small hours of the morning, Congress affirmed that President- elect Joe Biden won, though not before 138 members of the house, all Republicans, and seven Republican senators objected, aligning themselves with the very same disgraceful conspiracy theories and lies that inspired the bloodshed at the capitol. Hawley, Cruz, McCarthy and 142 other Republicans. This ugly chapter in American history is hopefully coming to a close, but this will forever stain their legacies, indeed, it will stain it and stain them with blood.

Let's start with CNN's White House correspondent, Kaitlan Collins, and CNN senior congressional correspondent Manu Raju. Speaker Pelosi, Manu, seems to think that there may actually be enough support in the Democratic caucus to possibly impeach President Trump again?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's what she just indicated to a group of reporters when we were in the room with her, in a press conference just moments ago, saying that the house would be prepared to impeach President Trump for the second time, which would, of course, be the first time in American history that something like that would occur.

But she said that they're willing to go down that road with just 13 days left in Donald Trump's time in office, if Vice President Mike Pence and the president's cabinet does not invoke the 25th Amendment of the United States to push Donald Trump out of office. She said, if Pence does not go down that road, the Congress may be prepared to act. She didn't say explicitly that she would do it, but she threatened to do just that because she warned of -- she said the president has committed what she calls a seditious act.

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REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): In calling for this seditious act, the president has committed an unspeakable assault on our nation and our people. I join the Senate democratic leader in calling on the vice president to remove this president by immediately invoking the 25th Amendment. If the vice president and cabinet do not act, the Congress may be prepared to move forward with impeachment. That is the overwhelming sentiment of my caucus, and the American people, by the way.

(END VIDEO CLIP) RAJU: Now, there's still a lot of questions about the timing of all

of this, given that there's so little time left in Donald Trump's time in office. She said that she wanted an answer from Mike Pence soon. She didn't say exactly how soon. She said she hoped to get an answer by the end of today, about whether or not they would move forward with the 25th Amendment.

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But then the question is, how quickly can they actually move on impeachment proceedings in the house? Recall the -- when Donald Trump was impeached back in 2019, that occurred over a period of several months, but presumably, they could move very quickly. She suggested, perhaps go straight to the house floor sometime next week to vote on articles of impeachment, which would be a remarkable move by this house.

But she contended, Jake, that Democrats are onboard. She said her phone is blowing up from text messages and phone calls and the like, and she says they're ready to do just that. So, we'll see how the vice president and the cabinet respond, Jake.

TAPPER: Yes, and of course, there's also the Senate that has to get involved. Manu, the terrorist mob is responsible for the violence that happened yesterday, but there's no way around the fact that the U.S. Capitol police, this is a huge failure by them to protect the capitol. What repercussions, if any, are there from that?

RAJU: Yes, we're seeing the top Democratic leadership call for the top law enforcement officials to essentially step down. The two key officials, the House Sergeant at Arms and the Senate Sergeant at Arms are being -- essentially being pushed out by the Democratic leadership. The one on the house side has submitted his resignation.

The Senate side, Chuck Schumer has called for the Senate law enforcement, Senate Sergeant at Arms to resign. Those people are in charge of security in the capitol complex. But also, the U.S. Capitol police is coming under a kind of criticism, including from Pelosi, and Pelosi has called on Steven Sund, who is the Capitol -- the Capitol police chief to resign.

She said that she has not even gotten a briefing or any details about exactly what went wrong yesterday. And it wasn't until this morning that we learned about what happened on the ground with capitol police. They said that more than 50 of their officers had been injured. They said that their officers had been struck by weapons and the like by these pro-Trump rioters. But, the police chief acknowledging how difficult it was to maintain, ensure that the First Amendment could be carried out by these demonstrators, but he didn't provide many more details, but Pelosi wants him out, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Manu, let's bring in Kaitlan here. Kaitlan, what about the president's cabinet? Is there any indication that they might invoke the 25th Amendment and what about any resignations?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: What's notable about those 25th Amendment conversations is no one is denying, Jake, that they're actually happening. You know, before, we've brought this up in the past, people have said, that's ridiculous, we're not talking about it. No one is saying that now.

They are openly admitting that, yes, these conversations have been happening, whether or not they're actually going to go anywhere remains to be seen. But we are seeing some members of the cabinet resign as a direct result of how the president handled yesterday and what he did to incite what happened yesterday, by fueling those loyalists who descended on Capitol Hill with all these lies about the election.

And that's Elaine Chao; the Transportation Secretary, who we should also note is married to the Senate Majority leader Mitch McConnell, has resigned. And she sent an e-mail to her staff tying it directly to the way the president responded yesterday, saying that it was a traumatic and entirely avoidable event, and she says that "it has deeply troubled me in a way that I simply cannot set aside."

Now, there will be critics who say, yes, well, she's resigning with two weeks left of the Donald Trump presidency. But Elaine Chao has been here since day one. She's one of the longest serving cabinet members that we've seen. She's stood by the president through other controversies.

But this has been a real breaking point for a lot of people around the president. So, she is the first cabinet member that we're seeing. We'll wait to see if there are others. But Jake, she is joining a list of over half a dozen people who have now resigned.

And a lot of them are either people who have been there since day one or people who are incredibly loyal to the president that you're now seeing resign. Another one is -- who has been there since the early days is Matt Pottinger; he was the deputy National Security adviser. He played a critical role in the early response to the pandemic and trying to, you know, really wake people up in the administration. So, that's significant as well.

But Jake, it's also the criticism the president is getting not just from people inside, from people outside the administration as well including his own former Attorney General Bill Barr, of course, a Trump loyalist in the early days. And he is saying that the president orchestrated this mob and betrayed his office by his actions yesterday.

TAPPER: All right, Kaitlan Collins, thanks so much. Joining me now to discuss, John Bolton; the former National Security adviser for President Trump, former ambassador to the United Nations, author of the book, "The Room Where It Happened". Ambassador Bolton, thanks so much for joining us. President Trump has 13 more days in office. I know you have reservations about invoking the 25th Amendment. I don't know your feelings on impeachment, but what about those who say that President Trump right now poses a clear and present danger to the United States?

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, I don't think we should exaggerate. I'm not saying he's not a danger. I do believe that there's grave risk there.

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But we've got 13 days left, and I think those who advocate either the invocation of the 25th Amendment, which has never been used, section 4 of the 25th Amendment is what we're talking about here, has never been used before, for a very good reason, because it's probably the worst- written provision of the constitution, or impeachment, either one, have to make the argument that, that would leave us better off than simply gritting our teeth and trying to make it through the next seven business days, which is all we've got left until noon on the 20th of January. And I find it hard to believe that they can make that case.

TAPPER: Well, that's one argument, but let me ask you, I mean, 13 days in Trump world is, first of all, like six years. And second of all, we've seen the havoc that he can wreak. You know, Attorney General Barr, who is not an outspoken critic of President Trump, he publicly accused President Trump of, quote, "orchestrating" a mob to pressure Congress and violating his oath. Let me just ask you, do you think President Trump has blood on his hands?

BOLTON: I think he does. Look, I agree with Bill Barr. I think he did incite this mob with the clear intention of having them disrupt the electoral college certification and delay it to give him more time. I don't think there's any question about it.

But let's just take the 25th Amendment for a second. It says that if the vice president can round up a majority of the cabinet, they can write saying that the president is unable to fulfill the powers and duties of his office. In response, this is the 25th Amendment itself, section 4 says the president can then write a letter saying, I can, too. And if the vice president and this majority of the cabinet write back again and say, well, we still disagree, Congress then has 21 days to decide the issue.

So, imagine this. In the last 13 days of the Trump administration, you could have two people both claiming to hold the powers of the presidency. Do you think Donald Trump will write -- will back down when he gets a letter from Mike Pence? Think again. So, are we better off with two presidents competing with each other in the last 13 days? I think you risk making the situation which is bad as it is, far worse.

TAPPER: Interesting. What do you think about the members of Congress who have been pushing these lies about the election? Ted Cruz, Josh Hawley, Kevin McCarthy. How much blood do you think they have on their hands?

BOLTON: Well, I think this has been a real abuse of the constitution here by people who should know better, lawyers who should know better. There's no constitutional basis for these challenges. The framers expressly created the electoral college to minimize Congress' role in presidential elections.

That's why they created the separation of powers to have executive, legislative and judicial powers separately. They gave the states responsibility for the elections primarily, that's the principle of federalism. So, to hear Republicans object to the certification violates the separation of powers and federalism, not only two fundamental precepts of the constitution, but two fundamental precepts of conservatism.

TAPPER: So, I take your point on all of that. But in addition to that, this lie, the big lie that there was election fraud, even though court after court, election board after election board, has found no evidence of widespread fraud that would made any difference in the election. This lie incited these -- this mob that -- this insurrection. And I'm wondering how much responsibility people like Hawley and Cruz and McCarthy, you think they have.

BOLTON: Well, I think a lot of people in the party who were intimidated by Trump and who didn't speak up to say that the president is not speaking the truth, there is responsibility. And I think the responsibility going forward, I think, Mitt Romney said this very well yesterday, as Republicans, we now have an obligation to tell people what the truth was. I think we can do that. I think people can be convinced of it. I think it's critical that we do so. But it's -- I lay the responsibility primarily at the door of Donald Trump.

TAPPER: Do you have concerns about an orderly transition of power on January 20th? Do you think the Secret Service is going to have to escort President Trump out of the building?

BOLTON: No, I think he'll go to Mar-a-Lago. And I think that's the real secret of the next 13 days. Put him on Air Force One and let him go play golf. You know, let me just come back to the 25th Amendment and section 4. Mike Pence, you know, Mr. Conspiracy as he's known in Washington, to make this work, would have to get a majority of the cabinet to sign up in secret. Why?

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Because if Donald Trump finds out that his secretary of fill-in-the- blank has signed this letter, he's going to fire the person. And then the signature on the letter won't have any force or effect. This is simply not workable, not only is it dubious constitutionally to create the risk of two competing presidencies, it's not going to work.

TAPPER: Let me just ask you because I hear your objections on a logistical basis, and I hear the idea and I understand what you're saying in terms of this might actually make things worse. What about the principle? What about if in a different world, if there were an easier process and less of a risk of there becoming two competing presidents, then, just as a matter of, boy, I would -- I really wish that he was no longer president, and there was some easy way to do this, like, right now, would you support that, just as an idea?

BOLTON: Well, I think it's possible, but let's also talk about what the purpose of section 4 was. It contemplated a president who had had a stroke or a heart attack, who was unconscious, flat on his back at Walter Reed --

TAPPER: Like Woodrow Wilson -- BOLTON: Unable -- right, exactly. Unlike section 3 of article 25,

where the president himself signs over power, as has had happened several times when presidents undergo operations. Section 4 is not a license for a coup. It says that the letter has to say the president is unable to fulfill the powers and duties of his office.

What you're complaining about, and there's a risk that it's right, is that he is able to fulfill the duties and powers of the office. So, you've got to be very careful here about delegitimizing the constitution any further than we've already seen. And that's why the calculation has to be, are you better off pursuing the 25th Amendment or impeachment? And I don't think that case can be made.

TAPPER: A source tells CNN that President Trump initially resisted deploying the National Guard to try to get control of this MAGA terrorist insurrection. Sources tell CNN that he was borderline enthusiastic about what was going on. Mick Mulvaney is saying that he's different now than he was eight months ago. Do you agree or does this sound like the Donald Trump you always knew?

BOLTON: This is another day at the office for Donald Trump. And anybody says to the contrary just wasn't paying attention to him. I do think to come back, though, to the Department of Defense here, and I know the Capitol police are taking the blunt of the blame for the catastrophic failure of security that occurred yesterday.

I have got to believe this question is much more complicated. The Justice Department, Homeland Security, the Department of Defense, the Secret Service were all involved or should have been behind the scenes. And I think this is not a question just of blaming the two sergeants at arms in the house and the Senate. They may bear a heavy share of the responsibility, but a lot more went wrong here. And I think one thing Congress can and should do immediately is try and assess what happened because that catastrophe could have been averted, I think.

TAPPER: All right. Ambassador John Bolton, good to see you again, sir, thanks so much for being with us.

BOLTON: Thank you for having me.

TAPPER: Among the shattered glass and debris, questions about how these terrorists were so easily able to breach security at the normally locked down U.S. Capitol. A look at what's now being done to change that. Then, Facebook bans President Trump, for a little bit. But is this too little, too late? Stick around.

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TAPPER: And we're back with our politics lead. Minutes ago, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi called for the resignation of the U.S. Capitol Police chief Steven Sund, saying she has received notice that he will submit his resignation. Plus, Republican and Democratic lawmakers are demanding an investigation into how this pro-Trump terrorist mob was able to overtake capitol police and storm the U.S. Capitol.

The chief of U.S. Capitol police is defending his officers, saying they responded, quote, "valiantly", and that they were, quote, "actively" attacked with metal pipes and other weapons. The chief did not explain how the mob managed to get inside the Capitol and smashed windows, destroyed property, freely mill about insecure spaces, force members of Congress to shelter in place.

One officer appears to have posed for a selfie with one of these rioters, and well after the breach, cell phone video appears to show officers outside, opening gates, allowing even more of the mob to storm in. Let's bring in CNN's Shimon Prokupecz. And Shimon, fewer than a hundred people so far have been arrested between D.C. and capitol police. Why not more arrests at the very least, at this point?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME & JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well, one of the things, Jake, that we're hearing is that, the FBI, the police here are actually looking for some of these people. They know who they are, they have photos of them obviously from social media, and one of the things is they're out there looking for them, actively looking for them.

We also know that the U.S. attorney here is about to announce charges of up to about a dozen people or so, in connection with yesterday's activity. And also, I just want to show you what's going on here outside the Capitol, Jake. It's basically been fortified here now.

We have barriers everywhere, fencing, but there are still Trump supporters out here. Some of them still remain here in Washington D.C. And also, what the police have said, Jake, is that many of the people who came here yesterday were not from Washington D.C. A lot of them from out of town, not from nearby towns, even.

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And so, what's going on now is that the police are just basically trying to find them. For now, these protesters were pushed further back. These Trump supporters, so they're standing behind here. You see the Capitol police, but they're pushing them and keeping them further back from the steps of the Capitol.

TAPPER: Shimon, in addition to the questions about how they were able to get inside the Capitol, we saw a lot of these Trump supporters, this mob, physically attacking police, and several officers we're told were injured in this insurrection. What do we know about that?

PROKUPECZ: Yes, some of them seriously. One of the officers, at least, is still in the hospital. He was beaten by this group of mobsters that entered Capitol Hill. He was tased and beaten pretty severely by them. And so he is still hospitalized. Other officers here also injured. You know, the bottom line is I think all of this really caught, as we know by now, the police by surprise. I think most of these Trump supporters have been pro-police. We've seen them at rallies.

We've seen them at other places supporting the police. And I think one of the things that we saw yesterday in their response and why there was such a lack of response is because I think what happened was, for so long, a lot of them have supported the police and to see them going against the police, attacking the police, breaking police lines, I think caught a lot of the officers by surprise. They were not prepared and I think that's partially also what led to a lot of their injuries, Jake.

TAPPER: Well, I don't think this mob care -- honors the police. I think they just don't like Black Lives Matter. Shimon, thank you so much. Joining me now is Democratic Congressman Hakeem Jeffries; he is the Chairman of the Democratic Caucus. Congressman, thanks so much for being with us. A short time ago, Speaker Pelosi called for the 25th Amendment to be invoked.

She said if the vice president and cabinet do not act, Congress may be prepared to move forward with impeachment. Just a second ago, I heard from a former Republican Congressman, Paul Mitchell, who said to me, he's now an independent and he didn't run for re-election. And he said "President Trump should step down or the 25th Amendment should be invoked". What do you think, impeachment, 25th Amendment, what do you -- what do you want?

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Well, the most important thing, Jake, is that the president should be removed from office. He's a clear and present danger to the health, safety and well-being of the American people. We saw that in quite vivid and violent ways yesterday.

This was a mob that was incited and directed to attack the Capitol, attack our democracy, attack the rule of law and attack the constitution, in order to subvert the peaceful transition and transfer of power. That's what it was all about. And this is a logical consequence of the corrupt behavior that we have seen from this president from the moment that he was sworn into office. Now, I've indicated that I believe all options should be on the table, including the impeachment, conviction and removal of Donald Trump.

That is something that Congress has in our control, in both the house and the Senate. We'd need to do it, of course, in a bipartisan and bicameral way, given the constraints in the United States Senate. But the most important thing is to end this nightmare before he can do anymore damage to our country.

TAPPER: Tell us about your experience at the Capitol yesterday, both when the mob was terrorizing the building and the individuals there. And also, when you came back, what was the scene?

JEFFRIES: Well, I happen to be on the floor of the House of Representatives at the time that the so-called objections were being debated in connection with the state of Arizona. And that debate was interrupted by the Sergeant at Arms, I believe, who indicated that there were individuals who were trying to break into the Capitol, and that for the moment, things were under control. But that he wanted to brief us as to where things stood.

Shortly thereafter, after the constitutional officers were removed, he came back and indicated to us that the mob had breached the Capitol, was on the second floor, and was en route to the House of Representatives' chamber, urged us to secure the gas masks that were underneath our seats in the event that tear gas was disseminated, and that things could escalate from there.

TAPPER: And tell us about when you came back, what you saw. I heard that you saw that somebody had urinated in the hall of Congress or something.

JEFFRIES: Well, that's correct, in front of my Capitol Hill office, there was urination, and I was informed about it based on the fact that a staff member of mine, who was sheltering in place in that office as the mob riots were taking place, was able to hear what was occurring, as part of the desecration that was the clear intent of what was occurring, as well as the assaults on the officers, the rummaging through the different offices.