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The Lead with Jake Tapper

New CDC Vaccine Guidelines; Interview With Fmr. Sen. Jeff Flake (R-AZ); Biden Lays Out Economic Stimulus Plan. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired January 22, 2021 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:10]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: And welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Pamela Brown, in for Jake Tapper on this Friday.

And we begin today with breaking news. Minutes ago, President Biden unveiled more of his plan to help ease the economic pain many Americans are feeling during this pandemic right now.

Biden signed two executive orders, one focused on expanding assistance to Americans in need, and another that lays the groundwork to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour for federal workers.

President Biden is also proposing Congress pass a $1.9 trillion relief plan. But, as CNN's Phil Mattingly reports, that will take more maneuvering than just the stroke of a pen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We need more action. And we need to move fast.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Joe Biden, in his second full day in office, zeroing in on the second major crisis facing his administration, a teetering economy.

BRIAN DEESE, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: Now is a moment not to undershoot or to wait and see. Now's a moment to act.

MATTINGLY: With new weekly unemployment claims still hovering just shy of one million, Biden unveiling a pair of executive orders, one that would expand food assistance, speed up distribution of stimulus checks and expand eligibility for unemployment benefits for workers who refuse jobs due to unsafe working conditions.

BIDEN: We're in a national emergency. We need to act like we're in a national emergency. So, we have got to move with everything we have got. And we have got to do it together.

MATTINGLY: And one that lays the groundwork for a $15 minimum wage for federal workers, the executive orders capping a week of more than two dozen actions to try and ramp up or completely reverse his predecessor's efforts to deal with the same issues.

But as the White House grapples with a cascade of economic and public health crises, concern that its sweeping $1.9 trillion stimulus proposal has already run into partisan roadblocks, with conservatives and moderate Republicans alike blanching at the price tag.

The White House, despite its flurry of executive actions, remains unbowed in its push.

DEESE: We're at a precarious moment for the virus and the economy. Without decisive action, we risk falling into a very serious economic hole, even more serious than the crisis we find ourselves in.

MATTINGLY: But it's an immediate and potentially seismic challenge for a president who has made clear that bipartisanship is his preferred route.

Still, a signal that some of the logjam is starting to break on at least one issue, the president's Cabinet, retired General Lloyd Austin confirmed as defense secretary, the first black leader of the Pentagon in U.S. history, with Democrats saying Janet Yellen and Antony Blinken, Biden's picks for Treasury and the State Department, will follow in short order, a team coming together, as the stakes only get higher by the day.

BIDEN: We have the tools to get through this. We have the tools to get this virus under control and our economy back on track. We have the tools to help people. So let's use the tools, all of them, use them now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: And, Pamela, there's been a lot of talk all week about how many different issues the president has reversed from his predecessor, but one that the White House is not paying any attention to, the color scheme of Air Force One.

You will remember quite well President Trump made a big show of shifting the color scheme, or at least proposing to. Jen Psaki, the White House press secretary today, confirming the White -- or the president himself has not spent a moment thinking about the color scheme and no decision memos are expected to be submitted on that color scheme.

So, the color scheme not a focus of the White House. The economy, coronavirus, that is where they're focused right now, Pamela.

BROWN: She made that very clear that is not where the focus is.

All right, nice soundtrack there in the background, Phil Mattingly.

MATTINGLY: It's "Free Bird." It's "Free Bird."

BROWN: Thank you.

(LAUGHTER) BROWN: Thank you very much for that.

All right, so let's talk about all of this. We have Dana here and Abby.

Great to see you, ladies.

Let's jump right into it, because we just heard from President Biden talking about this $1.9 trillion relief package. Here's his pitch he made in the last hour. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: President Trump's top former economic adviser, Kevin Hassett, said -- quote -- he "absolutely is in favor" of this rescue plan.

This almost doesn't have a partisan piece to it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: But, Abby, President Biden is already facing some resistance.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and I think he will continue to face resistance.

I mean, look, there are a lot of Republicans who just don't want to spend more money right now. And I think some will point out that that's somewhat hypocritical, considering that's not really been a concern in the last four years.

[16:05:00]

But a $1.9 trillion price tag, I think Biden knows that's a big price tag. But what he's trying to build consensus on is the building blocks of that price tag, which is economic relief for individuals and for businesses and for vaccine distribution and for testing.

And I think that the White House believes that, if they can build support for those things, there's no reason that Congress can't come up to some kind of agreement on a larger package. Whether it ends up being $1.9 trillion, I think that's probably unlikely. But something is possible, for sure.

BROWN: Yes. And our reporting is that those in the Biden administration know that it's unlikely. This is up for negotiation, right? It's a test for the Biden administration.

It's also a test, though, for Republicans. Will they -- once again, will we see them become sort of the party of resistance, like they were under the Obama years? Or will they suddenly start working with Joe Biden? What do you think?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It really is the question, Pamela, because we did see, 12 years ago, Mitch McConnell famously say that President Obama would be a one-term president. That was their goal. I mean, it was in this specific context, but it was certainly taken to

be more broad. And that is, in a lot of ways, how Republicans acted and reacted to a lot of his proposals. Very, very different time. The Biden (sic) administration had a Congress with huge supermajorities in the Senate and in the House. And it's just not the case today, A.

B, you actually have not just President Biden and the people around him, but also some senior Republicans, who think it is in their best interest, given the times, given everything that we have behind us now, to come up with some bipartisan solutions.

I just had one Republican senator I was talking to before coming on with you saying -- and this is not a moderate -- saying, we have to prove that we can govern. We can't act like we did 12 years ago, or we are never going to win back the Senate, never mind the White House in four years.

BROWN: And, of course, all of this is against the backdrop, Abby, of the Senate trial that we expect could begin next week.

And Mitch McConnell has put forward this February timeline. Here's what President Biden had to say about that today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: I haven't heard the detail of it, but I do think that having some time to get our administration up and running. We -- I want to thank the Senate for passing out secretary of defense. Looks like our secretary of Treasury and looks like our secretary of state's in place.

So, the more time we have to get up and running and to meet these crises, the better.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: But then you have this dynamic of the articles of impeachment from the House going over on Monday.

So, what's going on here? What can we expect, Abby?

PHILLIP: Well, the articles of impeachment are going over.

But there's still room, even if they go over on Monday, for Republicans and Democrats in the Senate to come to an agreement about when the trial will begin. And it's very important that Biden seemed open to this.

When Senator Chris Coons first floated this idea, the -- the interest in this idea a couple of days ago with Wolf on our air, it seemed to be a pretty clear sign that at least some people are in the Biden orbit believe that it this might work out as a good compromise.

And there were initially some ideas that it could be 100 days, but two weeks, or two or even three weeks is a much more modest amount of time to get to allow some of these Cabinet nominees to be confirmed, but also still have a relatively speedy Senate trial, but also, notably, to deal with a major concern that some Republicans have been bringing up, which is that President Trump might not get the due process that he deserves.

It gives him some time to put together his legal team, to figure out his legal arguments. And it probably takes that argument off the table for some Republicans, who had been relying on that to oppose an impeachment trial in the first place.

BROWN: What do you think? I mean, hearing that from Biden, do you think it sounds like he's agreeing with Mitch McConnell on the timeline?

BASH: Yes, it has. It absolutely does.

It's going to be -- not is going to be, that it is as we speak a negotiation happening between Chuck Schumer, the incoming Senate majority leader, and I guess currently the Senate majority leader, and Mitch McConnell. But, of course, the Biden administration has a heavy hand in the decision-making process because of what Abby just laid out.

They want their -- they need their Cabinet in place in order to function and to do the things that they need to do, beyond the executive orders that the president has been signing for the past few days.

So, no question about that. I mean, the other issue, once that gets started, is what happens, how quickly it is -- how long it takes. And there certainly -- we have reporting from our excellent Hill team. I have talked to Republicans more and more over the past few days who say that the notion that President Trump would actually be convicted is shrinking by the day; 17 Republicans would have to agree to that.

[16:10:20]

And just with the argument that some people who are in President Trump's camp are making that it's unconstitutional to convict somebody who's not even in the White House anymore, because it's unprecedented, we don't know what is and isn't necessarily constitutional, but that seems to be something that those Republicans on the fence are listening to.

BROWN: All right, really interesting to break it down like that. We will have to see because, in many ways, Dana and Abby, it's unchartered territory.

BASH: Yes.

BROWN: A Senate trial for a former president, a president who was impeached twice, also never been done before.

All right, Dana and Abby, thank you.

And you both have new shows starting on Sunday. So, we want to be sure to mention that. Abby, you are -- will be anchoring, the new anchor of "INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY." She will be joined by Senator Elizabeth Warren at 8:00 a.m. Eastern, and then at 9:00 a.m. and noon, Dana Bash, co-anchor of CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION." This Sunday, she talks to Senator Mitt Romney and Senator Bernie Sanders and Congresswoman Madeleine Dean.

Thank you so much, ladies. Can't wait to watch this weekend.

PHILLIP: Can't wait to watch you too, Pam.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Yes, you too. See you Saturday night and Sunday night, Pam.

BROWN: Sounds good. Weekends are the place to be.

Thanks, ladies. See you soon.

And, meantime, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi makes her move and announces when she will send the article of impeachment over to the Senate, as we were just talking.

And then a matter of trust. What one Republican lawmaker tried to bring on the House floor that is causing more division.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:15:51]

BROWN: And more breaking news in our politics lead.

Sources telling CNN that the prospects of convicting former President Trump in the impeachment trial are eroding, as we find out the House is set to deliver the articles of impeachment to the Senate on Monday.

CNN's Ryan Nobles reports, that means the second Trump impeachment trial could start as early as Tuesday.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Democrats have a date.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): I have spoken to Speaker Pelosi, who informed me that the articles will be delivered to the Senate on Monday.

NOBLES: Pushing ahead with a plan to hold the impeachment trial of former President Trump right away.

The articles could be read on Monday, the presiding judge seated and witnesses and members sworn in Tuesday, with arguments beginning as soon as Wednesday.

Trump is already preparing his defense, hiring South Carolina lawyer Butch Bowers to represent him. Republicans are already warning that convicting the former president could be more trouble than it's worth, despite the deaths caused by the rioters inspired by Trump at the Capitol.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): It sets a bad precedent for the presidency, and it continues to divide the nation.

NOBLES: Democrats need 17 Republicans to convict Trump. And there are signs that establishment Republicans are encouraging senators to vote to convict, so the party can move past Trump.

But the impeachment timeline could be part of a broader negotiating strategy, as the two sides barter over power of the chamber.

SCHUMER: We could organize the Senate today, if both sides agreed to abide by the same rules as last time.

NOBLES: New Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and Minority Leader Mitch McConnell are working to strike an agreement that reflects the 50/50 balance, but with Vice President Kamala Harris' role as president of the Senate that allows Democrats to run the show.

Republicans want Democrats to agree to never abandon the Senate filibuster, which allows one member to force a supermajority vote on any bill, which means 60 senators must vote in favor to advance the legislation.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): So, we will continue to request that our Democratic colleagues reaffirm the standing rule of the Senate which they have been happy to use on many occasions, I can attest.

NOBLES: Meanwhile, Republicans, who allowed deficits to run wild during the Trump administration, are now raising concerns over President Biden's proposed $1.9 trillion spending package that would offer assistance for those dealing with the coronavirus pandemic.

Maine GOP Senator Susan Collins, a key swing, said a broad, expensive package at this stage would be too much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NOBLES: And while there may be some Republicans here in Washington, D.C., that are pushing the senators to go forward and convict President Trump so that they can get past him and his -- as part of the party, there doesn't appear to be at least 17 senators here that are willing to go along with that.

The CNN Capitol Hill team fanned out, talking to more than a dozen Republican senators. We couldn't find one that was optimistic that the votes were there to convict President Trump. In fact, most Republicans here in the United States Senate would like to move past impeachment as quickly as possible -- Pam.

BROWN: All right, Ryan, thanks for bringing us the latest there on Capitol Hill.

And joining me now is former Arizona Republican Senator Jeff Flake, who is now a CNN commentator.

Thank you so much for coming on, Senator Flake.

Let's get right to this new reporting. You just heard Ryan allude to it right there. CNN has spoken to more than a dozen GOP senators, and it is becoming clearer that Republicans are likely to acquit Trump.

As the Capitol attack gets more distance, do you think a conviction looks less and less likely?

JEFF FLAKE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I do.

As long as you can rely on a constitutional argument that he is already out of office, impeachment is meant to remove somebody from office, it's easier for Republican to vote against. So, yes, and the further distance you get from it, I think people just say, hey, why bother? He's already out.

So, yes, I think it's going to be difficult to get 17.

BROWN: Well, it's interesting because my colleagues Michael Warren and Jamie Gangel are reporting that there are dozens of influential Republicans in Washington, including former top Trump administration officials, that have been quietly lobbying Republican lawmakers to impeach and convict Trump.

[16:20:02]

Their view is, look, if we do this, if you do this, then we don't have to worry about him running again the next time, and perhaps we can sort of extricate him from the party.

But what do you think? Can your party move away from Donald Trump, given the dynamic just laid out?

FLAKE: Well, I want one of those who is hoping that we can move quickly away from Trump and Trumpism.

If I were in the Senate, I would vote to convict. And I know that there are a lot of call it establishment or traditional or mainstream Republicans advocating for that.

I just don't think it's going to be enough to move certain senators to do this. But, yes, whatever can move us beyond the president -- and, frankly, I think, whether he is convicted or not, he will lose influence quickly. He already has. And once you lose the trappings of office and the levers of power, it's really difficult to maintain influence, particularly after what happened just two weeks ago.

BROWN: Why would you vote to convict if you were still in the Senate?

FLAKE: Well, I think that he has committed an impeachable act, inspiring this insurrection.

And then they could have added another article, which, frankly, would have had an easier time, I believe. When he called the Georgia secretary of state and told him to find his 11,000 votes, that was clearly an abuse of power, trying to affect the outcome of an election that he was in.

So, yes, I think that, that he deserves it. But I don't think it's going to happen.

BROWN: You have Republican Senator Ron Johnson saying now that the Senate can not handle an impeachment trial and confirmation hearings at the same time.

Last March, though, he had very different views about multitasking when he was trying to subpoena Hunter Biden, and Democrats suggested he should be spending more time on the pandemic. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): I actually can walk and chew gum at the same time. Most of my time and effort has really been about border issues, coronavirus, cybersecurity. This is an ongoing investigation. We have a couple staff investigators pressing this.

Now's the time to issue a subpoena. It doesn't take much from my time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: But now he's saying, we shouldn't do both at once.

What is your reaction?

[16:25:00] FLAKE: Well, like it or not, it's coming. When the House sends it over to the Senate, the Senate has no choice but to take it up.

And I do think that the Senate can do these two things. Everything in the Senate requires -- or almost everything -- unanimous consent. And they can't agree on a procedure where they can move forward on Cabinet nominees. That's very important, obviously, to the new administration.

But impeachment and conviction and a trial is certainly important too. They can do it both.

BROWN: And there's this group of Democratic senators that have filed an ethics complaint against their Republican colleagues Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley.

Do you agree that they violated Senate ethics rules? What do you think the appropriate response is?

FLAKE: I'm not sure if it involves Senate ethics rules, but, boy, it was certainly irresponsible.

And I think that they will have accountability when it comes to running for leadership positions or for reelection. People will remember that. It was extremely irresponsible to amplify the president's false claims, and to use the Senate and the Congress in this way.

So, I doubt that it will move forward and have any ramifications with Senate ethics, but it will for other things that they want to do.

BROWN: You think so? Because it seems as though they were doing this for political gain. You think it will hurt any attempts for reelection? Well,

FLAKE: Well, it could, yes. This was significant and serious.

And, obviously, they were hoping to garner part of the president's space. They may have succeeded, but it's a shrinking base. So they will have to be ready for that. In a general election in either Missouri or Texas, this will be brought up. And this will be -- this will follow them, certainly.

So, yes, I don't think it'll have ramifications with Senate Ethics, but it will -- and particularly if they want to seek a leadership position in the Senate in the meantime as well.

BROWN: All right, former Senator Jeff Flake, thank you so much for the discussion. I appreciate it.

FLAKE: Thank you, Pam.

BROWN: And up next on this Friday: Dr. Anthony Fauci unleashed his take on the impact of the Trump administration's coronavirus failures, as the Biden CDC issues updated vaccine guidelines you need to know about.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Turning to our health lead now: The CDC is issuing new vaccine guidance, saying that people can wait up to six weeks between vaccine doses and approving of taking one dose of a Pfizer vaccine and another of Moderna in -- quote -- "exceptional situations."

Now, this is coming as the vaccine rollout continues to be a nightmare, but may be shifting in the Biden administration's favor. And it all could be thanks to lucky timing, as CNN's Nick Watt reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At Dodger Stadium in L.A., up to a five-hour wait for a vaccine shot.

ERIC GARCETTI (D), MAYOR OF LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA: Demand far outstrips supply. We are still waiting to learn when more doses will arrive.

WATT: In New York City they have paused vaccinating police and firefighters. Why? Dwindling supply. Less than 1 percent of the U.S. population has been fully vaccinated so far, double dosed.

There's a new hands-on plan from Fauci and the feds.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NIAID DIRECTOR: We got to go into the trenches.

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