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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani; Interview With Rep. Eric Swalwell (D-CA); Moderna Expects Vaccine to Protect Against Highly-Contagious Variants; Arizona GOP Censures Flake, Ducey & McCain as Party Tensions Rise. Aired 4:30-5p ET

Aired January 25, 2021 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:30:16]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Today we are learning more about the lengths to which former President Trump went to use his office -- or attempt to -- to overturn Joe Biden's legitimate, clean win, through Justice Department machinations, we learned.

And, as CNN's Ryan Nobles reports for us now, today, the internal watchdog at the Justice Department announced it will investigate whether any department officials acted improperly to try to reverse the results of the election.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In just a few hours, for the second time, articles of impeachment against former President Donald Trump will arrive in the Senate, starting the clock on Trump's trial.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): First of all, I think the trial is stupid. I think it's counterproductive.

NOBLES: Tonight, the articles will be put on display. Tuesday, senators will be sworn in and the summons will be issued. Sources tell CNN that Vermont Democratic Senator Patrick Leahy is expected to preside over the trial, not Chief Justice John Roberts, who's not constitutionally bound to do so, since Trump isn't in office.

Trump will then have until next Tuesday, February 2, to file his answer to the impeachment article. That is also the deadline for the House to file their pre-trial brief. The final paperwork must be filed on the following Monday, setting up the start of the trial on February 9.

The schedule gives Trump's legal team time to prepare, as new details emerge about his time in office, including his reported efforts to pressure the Justice Department to look into baseless claims of voter fraud and weighing a plan to fire the acting attorney general during his final weeks in office, details which are now being investigated by the Justice Department's inspector general.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): For the president to try and get an attorney general who will just totally lie about the results of the election and cause chaos in America.

NOBLES: The impeachment trial is also likely to highlight the growing rift in the Republican Party.

SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): I believe that what is being alleged and what we saw, which is incitement to insurrection, is an impeachable offense. If not, what is?

SEN. TOM COTTON (R-AR): This trial is beyond our constitutional authority.

NOBLES: Amid the debate about the path forward for the GOP, Ohio Senator Rob Portman today announcing he will not seek reelection in 2022.

SEN. ROB PORTMAN (R-OH): It's kind of shirts and skins, isn't it? And that makes it more difficult to find that common ground, because elected officials aren't rewarded for that.

NOBLES: The impeachment also becoming a flash point among House Republicans, with Florida's Matt Gaetz, a loyal Trump supporter, planning a trip to Wyoming to target Liz Cheney, after the third- ranking Republican in the House voted to impeach Trump.

Cheney's office responding by poking fun at Gaetz for wearing makeup during TV interviews, a source telling CNN: "In Wyoming, the men don't wear makeup."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NOBLES: And in just the last hour, Congressman Gaetz responding to that criticism from Cheney's office, saying that his issues with Cheney aren't personal. It's just about his vision for the future of the Republican Party, and that it's very different from that of Liz Cheney's.

And that future of the Republican Party could be in the backs of the minds of many of these Republican senators as they deliberate over whether or not to convict President Trump in this impeachment trial.

The growing sense is that many believe that President Trump will still have very passionate support among the party's base, and that it's unlikely that 17 of them will cross party lines and vote to convict -- Jake.

TAPPER: Yes, I remember when Matt Gaetz brought a Holocaust denier to the State of the Union address. He's a real leader.

Thanks so much, Ryan. Appreciate it.

Joining me now is one of the House impeachment managers who will prosecute the case against former President Trump, Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell of California.

Congressman, the path that convict President Trump in the Senate, it's rather unlikely. You would need 17 Republicans to join all 50 Democrats. What makes you think that you're going to be successful convicting him?

REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA): I don't like what our country would look like if we didn't do this, for the sake of accountability.

I think of black Americans whose votes this president incited a crowd to go to the Capitol and disenfranchise. Deterrence. It would only be in the final days of a presidency where you try and pull off a coup. So, we have to show that we will hold a president accountable all the way up to the last moments.

And disqualification. This president has such a disdain for public safety and for the Constitution that we don't ever want to see him in office again, because he would do this again. So, we have to try. And we have got the evidence, and we're going to make the best case.

TAPPER: As Ryan just reported, we keep learning more information.

For example, it was just uncovered that President Trump was discussing with a different Justice Department official replacing his acting attorney general, Rosen, with this other individual who would go along with his false claims of election fraud.

A, do you plan to incorporate any of this new information in your case against the president? And, B, might there be some wisdom in waiting a few months just for the investigation into what happened to bear more facts?

[16:35:10]

SWALWELL: So, Jake, I guess, A, I would say I can't reveal trial tactics.

And, B, I hear you on that, but we're ready to go right now. And the Senate is ready to receive them. But the evidence you referred to is powerful motive evidence that he was willing to stay in office at any means necessary, that this was not a January 6 heat of passion crime, where he just got worked up in the moment and let the statements that he made about fighting and not showing weakness and calling the crowd a cavalry, that it wasn't just spontaneous, that, for months, he wanted to hold onto power.

And he knew that he could invite those supporters, inflame them, and then incite them to go to the Capitol.

TAPPER: Republican Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy says he spoke with President Trump during the Capitol siege. Do you plan to call Kevin McCarthy as a witness?

SWALWELL: So, we're still waiting to see if the Senate will allow witnesses.

What I can say is, the senators themselves are witnesses, And Ben Sasse has given public statements about he called the White House and was told during the siege that the president was taking great delight in what was happening.

So, this is an extraordinarily unique situation, where the jurors are witnesses and victims, and the crime scene also is the courtroom.

TAPPER: So, you might call Ben Sasse? I mean...

SWALWELL: No, no, I'm not saying that.

We're waiting to see what the rules will be around that. And, again, we're not going to reveal any tactics this early, until we know what the rules are.

TAPPER: But just to underline, you're not ruling out McCarthy or ruling in?

SWALWELL: You know, I'll leave that to our team to decide, but we will be ready. We're to go right now.

And, again, these senators, unlike most trials, they actually were witnesses to the crime.

TAPPER: Yes.

SWALWELL: So, you don't have to tell them twice what happened.

TAPPER: While I have you here, I want to ask you.

House Republicans have called for you to step down from the House Intelligence Committee because of this situation. You were informed by the FBI that you had been targeted by an alleged Chinese spy who I guess is no longer in the country.

Have you learned any more about this case since this broke in early December? And can you clarify how much contact you had with this Chinese national who goes by Fang Fang or Christine Fang?

SWALWELL: Yes, Jake, this was a 2015 meeting about a person that I had as a volunteer back in 2012 on the campaign.

The FBI has said that I did nothing wrong. Don't take it from me. There was no wrongdoing. I have learned nothing new. And Speaker Pelosi has said that she's keeping me on the committee.

And, by the way, Jake, Republicans were briefed on this conduct that this individual was trying to do with me and many other members of Congress back in 2015. I think this is retaliation more than anything else.

TAPPER: Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell of California, thanks so much.

SWALWELL: My pleasure. Thanks, Jake.

TAPPER: Appreciate your time.

Dominion Voting Systems announced today that they're suing Rudy Giuliani for $1.3 billion for defamation. Former President Trump's attorney repeatedly pushed election big lie conspiracy theories in public, on his podcast, on multiple TV appearances when he discussed Dominion, which provided the voting machines in at least two dozen states for the 2020 election, including in Georgia, one of the many states where President Trump refuses to accept that he lost fair and square.

The attorney representing Dominion, Tom Clare, joins me now.

Mr. Clare, thanks for joining us.

You have also sued Trump's other attorney Sidney Powell, although I don't know if he acknowledges her anymore. And when asked if you would sue former President Trump, you said you're not ruling anybody out. How are you exactly determining who you sue?

For example, Trump, some anchors at FOX, they all pushed the lie quite a bit. But they also have a lot of money to defend themselves. Does that factor into your decision?

TOM CLARE, ATTORNEY FOR DOMINION VOTING SYSTEMS: We're looking at everybody who trafficked in this misinformation campaign. We're taking a very evidence-based approach to it.

We're not in a hurry. Dominion is in this for the long haul to make sure that it gets vindicated and the American people have confidence in the election that just took place and have confidence in Dominion's role in elections.

And so we're looking very carefully at each speaker, at the evidence that we have, and we're going to be coming after each person or media outlet that played a role in perpetrating this disinformation campaign.

So, we have not ruled anyone out. We have sued Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani thus far, and we expect there will be many, many more.

TAPPER: Giuliani pushed these conspiracy theories, these -- I mean, we have been very clear from the very beginning, false, deranged, unhinged, but he pushed them -- he wasn't just standing in his living room. He went on to OANN. He went on to FOX. He wanted on to FOX Business.

Do you plan to sue those media outlets?

CLARE: We're looking at all of those outlets, Jake. We're looking at -- obviously, Rudy and Sidney Powell could not have done this alone. They obviously made the statement and they continued to push, but they did it with a very, very loud megaphone that was provided to them by many others, some you have mentioned and others that you haven't.

[16:40:02]

And we're going to take a look at each one of them and the level of irresponsibility and recklessness by putting these folks on the air to spread this information, this disinformation, to the American public and damaged Dominion in the process.

TAPPER: Giuliani just said on his radio show that he has reports and analyses of Dominion machines that -- and he can prove that they can be, the machines, and were, in fact, manipulated. He said he even got it on tape.

Just for the record, Rudy Giuliani has been lying about this stuff for months. I don't believe it. It's crazy. That said, what's your response?

CLARE: Well, it's exactly the reason why Dominion needs to move this discussion into a courtroom, because it's very easy to say that you have evidence on your own radio show or on social media or on Twitter.

But we want this in a forum, a courtroom, where there are rules of evidence and where you have to produce your evidence. You can't just talk about it. And that's why we have taken this step. And we're going to encourage Mr. Giuliani to put forward his evidence in court, where it will be evaluated by a judge and ultimately a jury in finding out what's true and what's not.

TAPPER: Isn't Donald Trump really the leading purveyor of this false information? I mean, he has the biggest megaphone before he was taken off social media. What would be the reason to sue Rudy and Sidney Powell, but not the leading purveyor of this big lie?

CLARE: Well, we haven't ruled any anybody out.

We're going to have access to discovery in these lawsuits. We're going to evaluate the roles of people behind the scenes. And I expect that, as we get into discovery, and we learn what people's roles were, there will be additional lawsuits.

If we believe we can make a case, we will.

TAPPER: Discovery works both ways, as you know. And Giuliani today was saying he was excited because this lawsuit from your company will allow him to investigate your company's history and finances and practices fully and completely.

He said he's going to -- quote -- "have a lot a fun" with the discovery process. Is there not a risk? I understand what you're doing. You want to stop these lies that have hurt your company, not to mention hurt the country. But is there a risk that allowing Giuliani and his flying monkeys of deranged conspiracy theories into your information, that this could create even more conspiracy theories?

CLARE: Well, unfortunately, these crazy and false allegations left the company with no other choice but to take this step to protect itself and to defend its reputation.

But we have no concern. We obviously understand that we are going to be litigating in a public forum and that discovery goes two ways. And Dominion is not backing away from that. We think it's important for the American people to have all of it laid out in both directions, so that they can judge for themselves.

And we're prepared to conduct discovery both directions. TAPPER: Because of letters you sent to FOX, a number of their

anchors, Pirro and Bartiromo and Lou Dobbs, I think, all aired this odd video of that provided facts about Dominion, despite the lies that they had all been providing themselves.

Was that enough for you?

CLARE: Well, I'm not going to speak specifically about those, because we haven't yet pursued those sorts of claims.

But I can just tell you that none of the retractions or apologies that have been put forward thus far are really sufficient to really set the record straight. It's too little too late. The damage has been done. This company has been destroyed. It's been labeled as radioactive. Its contracts have been put in jeopardy.

Its employees are getting death threats. It's -- there's going to have to be more accountability than that.

TAPPER: Let's talk about the death threats, because Giuliani mentioned Dominion in his speech hours before the terrorist attack on Capitol Hill.

He also said it -- he talked about Dominion numerous times on social media amid the breach. You claim in your suit that the insurrectionists bragged about defending the United States of America from Dominion social on media.

What concerns you the most about how willing and receptive some of Trump's supporters and terrorists have been to these conspiracy theories?

CLARE: Well, I think what that really shows is that words have consequences in the world.

People don't just listen to this crazy disinformation and tune it out and go about their business. It affects them. They internalize it. It affects their actions. It affects their willingness to act. It, in some instances, could motivate them to get on a plane and fly to the nation's capital and stand in the National Mall and listen to a speech, where -- it creates an environment where real actions take place in the real world.

And there has to be accountability for that. There has to be accountability for having that effect on people that could be a danger to other private citizens who are entitled to their reputation or entitled to go to work and -- every day, and earn a living for their families.

[16:45:09]

It's -- it's the reason -- one of the reasons why we're bringing this claim.

TAPPER: All right. Tom Clare, attorney representing Dominion Voting Systems, thank you so much. Stay in touch. It is important to stand up for facts and truth in this day and age, when both are in short supply in some quarters.

And I believe that your CEO, the CEO of Dominion, is going to be on Chris Cuomo's show later tonight. Thanks for being with us.

CLARE: Thank you, Jake.

TAPPER: A new, scary warning about the U.K. variant of the coronavirus that is already here in the U.S. That's next.

Plus, the GOP turning on its own. We're going to go visit a swing state where Trump's hold on the Republican Party is causing a war within the party.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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TAPPER: In our health lead today, Moderna says its vaccine is expected to protect against new strains of coronavirus but it's also working on a booster shot which could be even more effective against these new strains. A highly contagious and now it appears more deadly U.K. variant is spreading in the U.S. and in 45 other countries.

But Dr. Fauci says he's more worried about a South African variant, as CNN's Erica Hill now reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ERICA HILL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The virus variant first discovered in the U.K. is not just more transmissible. Scientists now say it may also be more deadly.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: They became convinced that it is, in fact, a bit more virulent, making it more difficult when you get to the point of serious disease and even death. So I believe their data.

HILL: As the variant spreads here in the U.S., the push is on to boost the pace of vaccinations. Moderna expects its vaccine will, to some degree, protect against the variant. There's just one problem.

DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: I can't tell you how much vaccine we have. If I can't tell it to you, I can't tell it to the governors and I can't tell it to the state health officials.

HILL: That's the new CDC director, and that problem is forcing scheduled appointments to be put on hold.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New York City does not have enough doses.

HILL: Planned for mass vaccination sites, New York's Citi Field was supposed to open today. Paused. The Biden administration once again shifting its message. DR. VIVEK MURTHY, U.S. SURGEON GENERAL NOMINEE: A hundred million

shots in his first 100 days in office, that's a floor. It's not a ceiling.

HILL: Just over half of the 41 million doses distributed nationwide are now in arms. Two thousand shots administered at this site Sunday in Seattle.

Amazon helping out with logistics.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are very grateful.

HILL: Average new cases down in nearly every state over the past week. Not a single red state on this now familiar map.

DR. JONATHAN REINER, PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: There is now clear evidence that the peak has passed in the United States, and cases are dropping rapidly.

HILL: COVID hospitalizations also declining. California lifting regional stay-at-home orders for 90 percent of the state as ICU availability increases. Massachusetts ending its curfew today, but not Ohio.

GOV. MIKE DEWINE (R-OH): Unfortunately, it's going to have to stay.

HILL: Deaths still far too high, nearing 420,000, including this Ohio couple, childhood sweethearts who died within minutes of one another, holding hands.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They taught us all really what love is.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HILL (on camera): Mayor de Blasio says in New York City, more vaccine is urgently needed. He believes the city could administer as many as 500,000 doses a week. This week, they're scheduled to receive 107,000. So, obviously not enough. And that is why, Jake, despite being slated to open today, the mass vaccination site behind me at Citi Field is still on hold.

TAPPER: Erica Hill, thank you so much.

I want to bring in Dr. Ashish Jha. He's the dean of Brown University School of Public Health.

Dr. Jha, good to see you.

So, Moderna today said that the U.K. strain had no significant impact on its vaccine, but the South African strain, they said, had a six- fold reduction. How worried are you about the South African strain of coronavirus?

DR. ASHISH JHA, DEAN, BROWN UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: So, Jake, first of all, thanks for having me on. I am not that worried yet. I want to use the word "yet," for two reasons. First, we haven't seen the South African variant in the United States yet. And second, despite that reduction in kind of neutralizing antibodies, I still think there's good reason to believe that the vaccine will be effective. And, of course, there's a third issue, which is we can also create a booster against the South African variant.

So, I don't want to blow it off, and I'm not saying it's irrelevant. But it's not yet any reason to be substantially concerned.

TAPPER: So, Moderna is testing a booster to help its vaccine better protect against the variants. How long might it take to develop a booster?

JHA: Yeah. Again, we're obviously, in new territory. I think what I'm hearing is that it's probably a four to six-week process. And it will raise really important questions. How much testing would we need to do of that booster?

We probably don't want to or need to run brand new clinical trials but we would probably want to do some testing before we gave it out widely. So, issues will still sort out, but it's going to be the order of weeks, not many, many months.

TAPPER: When you go out, when people in your family go out, do you wear one mask, do you wear N95 mask, do you wear two masks? Should we all be doubling up on masks? What do you think?

JHA: I'll tell you what I do, Jake. For most outdoor things that -- go for a walk with a friend, take my dog out for a walk, I wear a single mask. Cloth mask is fine. Surgical mask is fine.

If I'm going to be indoors at all for any extended period of time, I do double mask. I wear a KF94. They're readily available on online retail stores, Amazon, et cetera.

[16:55:02]

N95s really are reserved for health care workers. KF94s or KN95s are high quality masks you can get. And then I will put on a surgical mask or a cloth mask on top of it. And I think that two layers of mask really do offer protection in higher-risk situations.

TAPPER: Dr. Jha, obviously, when it comes to opening schools, we want the schools to be safe for -- especially for teachers since older people are more susceptible. But we keep seeing now these situations where schools and health experts say it's time to open the schools.

They're really damaging health impact on kids and, you know, as long as kids -- as long as everyone is wearing a mask, and we have improved the ventilation system in the school, this is what we should do. And we keep seeing teachers union across the country saying no, we're not going to do that. We're still worried about our teachers.

Where do you come down on this? It does seem like Democrats, when they ran for the White House, said we support the science. We support the science.

When it comes to this conflict between health officials and teachers unions, they're pretending there isn't a conflict.

JHA: Yeah. First of all, I think President Biden has been clear. He wants to get schools open. I think that's -- that's the right thing to do. We've got to get schools open.

I think all of us are saying we have to get schools open safely. And then, so mask wearing is a critical part of that. A lot of schools have not improved their ventilation, Jake, and I do think we need investments in that. And then the last point is I've argued back to September that we should have some level of testing.

So, a combination of those three things I think can make schools open, allow us to open schools safely. That's the key part there. And, you know, obviously, there are going to be people who are going to disagree with that, but science on that is pretty clear.

TAPPER: Okay. So you think as long as there's improved ventilation, testing and PPE, but those are important. You can't just short change it.

Dr. Ashish Jha, thank you so much. Appreciate your time.

JHA: Thank you, Jake.

TAPPER: Former President Trump left the White House with the Republican Party in more turmoil than ever before. But as CNN's Kyung Lah reports, the rifts within the GOP are evident in the key battleground state of Arizona.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Keep Arizona red and to make America great again.

KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Donald Trump may have lost the 2020 election, but he has not lost the Arizona Republican Party.

BARBARA WYLLIE, MEMBER, ARIZONA REPUBLICAN PARTY: However Trump rolls is how the Republican Party is going to roll.

LAH: This is the first gathering of the Arizona Republican Party this weekend since Trump's defeat.

UNIDENTIFED FEMALE: Good morning, Arizona patriots!

LAH: In just four years of Trump's MAGA messaging, voters in this once reliably Republican state voted to elect two Democratic senators and a Democratic president. But here, members punish their own for not being Trump enough.

GOV. DOUG DUCEY (R), ARIZONA: Good afternoon, everyone.

LAH: The AZ GOP censured Republican Governor Doug Ducey, Cindy McCain, the widow of the late Senator John McCain, and former Senator Jeff Flake. Ducey's perceived Republican offense was enforcing emergency health

orders as COVID cases spiked. Flake and McCain for not backing Trump.

Did you vote for John McCain?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I voted for John McCain.

LAH: That was then say these life-long Arizona Republicans. This is today.

Are you concerned about the censure of Cindy McCain?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I'm sorry. I voted for John McCain. I'm here to increase the Republican Party by making it a MAGA party.

C.J. DIEGEL, FORMER REGISTERED REPUBLICAN: And I finally had to say no. I don't want to be associated with the Arizona Republican Party.

LAH: That's it, says C.J. Diegel.

DIEGEL: That was a good show.

LAH: The registered Republican, married father of two hoped that after this -- his party would move away from Donald Trump. They didn't.

DIEGEL: When you go down that path and that's how you gain your notoriety, when you abandon decency, it's hard to go back on.

LAH: Diegel changed his party registration, among the more than 9,000 Republicans who the secretary of state says changed their affiliation since the insurrection at the capitol.

DIEGEL: We've got a bankrupt party here in the state and it needs to be rebuilt.

LAH: And remade, away from the images of Arizonans arrested at the Capitol, to winning statewide elections, says State Senator T.J. Shope.

T.J. SHOPE (R), ARIZONA STATE SENATOR: Obviously, I wear a different hat than the guy in the horns, you know, but it's definitely time for a reset.

LAH: Is what the AZ GOP doing turning the page?

SHOPE: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. It's -- I have no idea what they're doing.

LAH: But the state party seems intent to stay on the path forged by Trump, led by far-right Chairwoman Kelly Ward.

KELLY WARD, ARIZONA GOP CHAIRWOMAN: We have to stop the steal.

LAH: Who played an audio message from Trump at the state party meeting. DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT: I give my complete and total

endorsement to Kelly Ward. Thank you very much.

LAH: And was re-elected.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: Just lost Kyung Lah.

But or coverage continues right now. I will see you tomorrow.

Thanks so much.

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