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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Changes on Trump's Impeachment Defense Team; Speeding Up Vaccine Rollout; Interview With Sen. Joni Ernst (R-IA); Republicans Set to Meet With Biden to Propose Smaller COVID Relief Bill. Aired 4- 4:30p ET

Aired February 01, 2021 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

And we begin with our politics lead. In the next hour, President Biden and Vice President Harris are going to meet with 10 Republican senators. The GOP senators are pitching to the budget administration a slimmed-down COVID relief bill, a $600 billion counterproposal to the president's $1.9 trillion plan.

The Republican bill is not substantively different from the Biden proposal. It is significantly less in funding, though, including no funding for some Democratic priorities, such as funding for states and cities.

This will be the first major test of President Biden's pledge to work across the aisle. And a Biden administration source tells CNN that, while the president is open to working with Republicans, $600 billion will not be enough to do the job with a nation in crisis.

This challenge also comes as the Biden White House is facing blowback from Vice President Harris' interviews pushing urgent action on economic relief with West Virginia news media, a move seen as pressure on moderate West Virginia Democratic Senator Joe Manchin.

Manchin was put off by the move, which, to many political observers, seemed rather ham-handed.

As CNN's Phil Mattingly reports, the White House this afternoon says President Biden is not worried about going too big with the bill. He is worried about going too small.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. ROB PORTMAN (R-OH): If you can't find bipartisanship on COVID- 19, I don't know where you can find it.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One hour from now, 10 Republican senators will put President Joe Biden's call for bipartisanship to the test, Biden granting a meeting on the group's COVID relief proposal, a $618 billion plan that would provide $160 billion for vaccine distribution and testing, $1,000 in direct payments, $300 for expanded unemployment insurance, and $20 billion for K-12 schools.

JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We saw this as a good-faith proposal they put forward. What this meaning is not is a forum for the president to make or accept an offer.

MATTINGLY: Yet the plan comes in less than one-third of the top-line total sought by the White House with significantly less funding for schools, no funding for states and localities and a shorter extension of the unemployment benefit, all as Biden has made clear bigger is better.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The risk is not doing too much. The risk is not doing enough.

MATTINGLY: Congressional Democrats are ready to move forward on a partisan basis this week.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): If we can't move forward with them, we will have to do it on our own.

MATTINGLY: But already scrambling to ensure a crucial vote in their one-vote Senate majority.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): We're going to try to find a bipartisan pathway forward. I think we need to, but we need to work together.

MATTINGLY: Moderate Democrat Joe Manchin bristling over this:

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Is that the American people deserve their leaders to step up and stand up for them.

MATTINGLY: And pushing back on a White House pressure strategy that has already fallen apart.

MANCHIN: That's not a way of working together.

MATTINGLY: Which is why the White House today tried to quickly mend that fence and keep Manchin on their side.

PSAKI: We have been in touch with Senator Manchin, as we have been for many weeks and will continue to be moving forward.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: Now, Jake, the necessity of keeping Senator Manchin in the fold will likely only be underscored by the meeting that's going to happen just behind me in about an hour.

Republicans involved in their proposal make clear they want to go into this meeting and get a sense of where the president is, and, perhaps more importantly, where the president is willing to move.

But, Jake, when you talk to White House advisers, they make very clear not only is $618 billion well below something they will be willing to deal on. They aren't willing to move much off their top line. They are willing to revise in some ways and in some places.

They have made very clear the scope of the crisis calls for them to go big. And they aren't moving off of that top line anytime soon, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Phil Mattingly on Capitol -- at the White House, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Joining us now, Republican Senator Joni Ernst of Iowa, who joins us here in studio.

Thanks for being here, Senator.

SEN. JONI ERNST (R-IA): I want you to take a listen to the Republican governor of West Virginia, Jim Justice, on CNN today talking about the need for economic relief.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JIM JUSTICE (R-WV): But trying to be, per se, fiscally responsible at this point in time, with what we have got going on in this country, if we actually throw away some money right now, so what?

We have really got to move and get people taken care of and get people back on balance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: A Republican Governor in an area of the country not far from where you're from.

What's your response?

ERNST: Well, we do have to be fiscally responsible, but also provide relief to those that need it the most.

And that's why I am very glad that I have a number of colleagues that are stepping up. We have 10 that will be visiting with the president a little bit later today, and presenting a plan for moving forward, additional vaccine relief, which is necessary, additional stimulus payments, and extension of U.I. insurance for those that are still unemployed across our states.

So, we are moving forward with that plan. It does include a plan that I have worked heavily on, which is child care. And we know that to open up our economy, we need vaccines. But we also need to have day care centers and others -- other places for children to go safely, so that moms and dads can get back to work.

[16:05:09]

I think this is the responsible way of moving forward. And let's have those discussions. Let's do this in a bipartisan manner.

TAPPER: The Republican proposal does not provide any money to state and local governments, a key must-have for Democrats, who say these localities need funds to help distribute the vaccines, to increase testing, to reopen schools.

Why not include some funding for states and cities?

ERNST: Well, this is a sticking point, and where we want to make sure that we are targeting relief dollars towards COVID-19 and alleviating the issues with COVID-19.

What we don't want to see is a bailout of bad behavior from previous years. Now, Iowa passed a status quo budget this last year. They're doing OK. What my Iowa taxpayers are saying is, we don't want to bail out the states that haven't managed their own budgets responsibly.

If we can provide dollars and do it in a targeted way to provide PPE, additional vaccines and relief, we're happy to do that. We just don't want to bail out bad behavior.

TAPPER: So here's the brass tacks part of this. Democrats control now the White House, they control the Senate, they control the House.

Republicans are saying this needs to be bipartisan, we need to do this in a bipartisan way. But, in recent years, Republicans, when they controlled everything, passed tax cuts without any Democratic support. They nearly repealed Obamacare without any Democratic support. John McCain prevented that from actually happening.

So, why is it such a horrible thing for Democrats to do what they want to do to help the country, and if it's not bipartisan, and just their own party, when Republicans did things pretty much on their own when it came to health care and tax cuts?

ERNST: Well, we see a lot of tit for tat.

And you brought up some examples. Of course, Obamacare, the repeal of Obamacare, we have to remember, Obamacare was passed with no Republicans. With the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, we would have been very happy to have Democrats come forward and work with us on proposals that would work for their states and their constituents.

But from day one, they said, we're not going to participate in this. As we look towards working on COVID-19, we have worked in a bipartisan manner. But here at the beginning of a new administration, with a Democratic president, now we have Democrats in the Senate saying, we don't want to work with you, which is why I think it's so important that these 10 Senate Republicans have stepped forward.

We have all been working together on the various pieces of this legislation. We want to work with Democrats. And I think it's important that we do that. The president promised bipartisanship in his inauguration speech.

We really look forward to that. And we hope that he honors the promises that he's made to all of us.

TAPPER: So, you were one of the first Senate Republicans to acknowledge that Joe Biden won. You did so, I think, in December, after the Electoral College met; is that right? ERNST: Yes, that's right.

TAPPER: So, next week, you're going to start hearing arguments in the second impeachment trial of former President Trump.

I know you have issues, questions about the constitutionality of a Senate conviction for somebody who's no longer president. But beyond that question, we have seen at least 150 arrests of various Trump supporters and far right groups after attacking the Capitol, charged with sedition and other crimes.

If not impeachment conviction, what accountability should there be for Donald Trump, considering that he incited them and spread this lie that enraged them until they attacked the Capitol?

I mean, he -- you must agree that he bears some responsibility?

ERNST: Well, and I have said that he does bear some responsibility by exhibiting poor leadership.

And let me tell you. Just on January 6, as we were going through that, I was in the Senate chambers when rioters broke into the Capitol, and it was absolutely horrific.

But I also place a lot of responsibility upon those that were rioting and assaulted our democracy by coming into the Capitol. There was fear amongst the members. There was fear amongst those that were on the floor during that time. There were two young pages, young women that were crying and shaking.

I took them with me as we evacuated. It was horrific.

But we do have those that are being arrested for coming into the Capitol illegally. The president showed poor leadership. We know that. And I will listen to those arguments. I -- you're right. I do believe that this is unconstitutional at this point.

We will listen to the arguments as they're presented. But as far as other courses of action, the president, former president, is now a private citizen. There are courses of action that could be taken against a private citizen.

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TAPPER: So, legal -- if somebody was going to prosecute him for that, that would be something you would have less of an issue with?

ERNST: That could be a course of action. My role will be part of this jury in an impeachment conviction trial.

But, again, issues of constitutionality. We will listen to the arguments. But, again, the president showed poor leadership. And I wish he would have said much sooner, please stand down, this needs to be peaceful. And it didn't happen.

TAPPER: All right, Senator Ernst, thanks so much for being here. ERNST: Thank you.

TAPPER: It's good to see you again. And hope to have you back to talk about issues a lot more in the coming years.

ERNST: Thank you, Jake.

TAPPER: Only six states have given out 75 percent or more of the COVID vaccine doses that they have, only six. The others are falling far short.

What's being done to get more shots into arms? That's next.

Then: how Roger Stone and Bill Cosby now have an indirect connection to former President Trump's upcoming impeachment trial.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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TAPPER: Serious new questions about distributing the coronavirus vaccine top our health lead today.

Today, the Biden administration's top doctors appeared to reject a proposal from a leading infectious disease expert on the Biden transition team's COVID advisory board, Michael Osterholm, who suggested delaying second doses of coronavirus vaccines to give as many first doses as possible to people 65 and older.

Here is what CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said in response:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: The clinical trials with the two vaccines that have been authorized now have a two-dose -- had two doses in the trials.

We said we would follow the science in rolling out these vaccines, and that is our intent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The White House also announced a deal today to ramp up production of a fully at-home coronavirus test, as CNN's Nick Watt reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Production now ramping up on this, an at-home over-the-counter COVID-19 test, roughly 95 percent accurate results in just 15 minutes.

ANDY SLAVITT, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE ADVISER FOR COVID RESPONSE: It can be used if you feel symptoms of COVID-19, and also for screening for people without symptoms, so they can safely go to work, to school and to events.

WATT: Meanwhile, in the still sluggish vaccine rollout...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is just ridiculous.

WATT: There's at least one simple way to speed this up. West Virginia Governor Jim Justice gets it.

JUSTICE: If we have got vaccines that are sitting on a warehouse shelf, I mean, they need to be in somebody's arm.

WATT: But just six states, including his, have so far injected more than 75 percent of the doses they have been given. Today, a forceful message from the feds: Do not hold back for second doses.

SLAVITT: It does not need to happen and should not happen.

WATT: Because, unlike team Trump, team Biden has pledged to give states three weeks' notice when more doses are coming and how many.

SLAVITT: They now have the predictability that the second dose will be there when the time comes.

WATT: Fenway Park, Boston, now a vaccination site, but when baseball starts?

SAM KENNEDY, PRESIDENT AND CEO, BOSTON RED SOX: We will figure it out. It's just too important. We got to get everybody vaccinated.

WATT: Elsewhere in the Northeast, weather is also getting in the way.

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): Those that were scheduled for today or tomorrow in state-run facilities, they're going to be postponed.

WATT: Meanwhile, an exodus of officials from New York state's Health Department, some fingers pointing at the governor's behavior, according to five sources who spoke to "The New York Times."

CUOMO: When I say "experts" in air quotes, it sounds like I'm saying I don't really trust the experts, because I don't, because I don't.

WATT: Here's the hope. After nearly two months, there are finally fewer than 100,000 Americans in the hospital right now fighting COVID- 19. But:

WALENSKY: Variants remain a great concern. And we continue to detect them in the United States.

WATT: That more contagious strain first found in the U.K. now spreading here fast.

WALENSKY: And cases of this variant have now been detected in 32 states.

(END VIDEOTAPE) WATT: So, from midnight tonight, masks are going to be mandatory on all mass transit in this country, but still buoyed by those hopeful numbers, some places are rolling back restrictions. Outdoor dining is back, almost, here in Los Angeles, this place getting a delivery.

And final note: some pushback from New York's health commissioner on that "New York Times" reporting on the governor. He says, sure, some people left the department during the pandemic, but others joined with the necessary talents to confront this new challenge.

And he says, listen, the department performed well. Just look at the numbers -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Nick Watt, thanks so much.

And joining us now, CNN chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Sanjay, let's start with Michael Osterholm's proposal to delay second doses, give the second doses to as many people as possible, so more people get a first dose. The CDC has said they're not going to do that.

What do you think?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think that the data is sort of speaks for itself here a little bit. But there's a couple of caveats.

Let me show you what I mean here.

The reality is that there does seem to be some protection from the first dose. If we look at Moderna specifically, one dose vs. two doses, with the first dose, you get about 80 percent or so protection. With the two doses, as we know, it goes to 94.5 percent protection.

Now. We don't have as much data around that first dose, because there's only a few weeks that they follow people in between the first and second doses. So how long does that protection last? We don't know. The CDC has already come out and said you can wait up to 42 days, six weeks, before you get the second dose as it is. So there may be some merit to it.

Also, let me just show you this from Pfizer quickly. Jake, we talked about this right when Pfizer got their emergency use authorization, but you will see two lines on this graph. The blue line is just placebo. People who got placebo, cases went up. People continued to get symptomatic disease at the same rate.

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That red line, that flattening, that's after the first dose of the Pfizer vaccine. So, you can see that first dose had a significant impact on overall people getting sick. How long does it last? Is there enough data? I don't know.

But I think, if the numbers continue to take off, getting as many people protected may be the position that we have to sort of take.

TAPPER: The Biden administration announced a deal to increase production of the Ellume, which is an at-home coronavirus test. You can swab your nose and then you get results delivered to your smartphone within 15 minutes.

The company says the test is 95 percent sensitive at detecting COVID. How big of a difference do you think this could make? I have heard some people say, I don't need testing, I need the vaccine. But what's your response?

GUPTA: I mean, I don't think it's either/or.

I mean, both are helpful, for certain. The thing about these antigen tests, Jake -- and here's what I have sort of learned talking to lots of people over the past few months, is that the antigen tests are really good at answering the question that I think people really want answered, which is not necessarily, do I have presence of virus in my body? The question is, am I contagious, right?

If you have symptoms, you should stay home. I think that -- even pre- COVID, that was always the right answer. So this is for people who don't have symptoms, and they just want to know, am I carrying virus unknowingly, and could I potentially spread it?

And those tests are really good at being able to answer that question. So, even as the vaccines roll out, I don't think the issue of testing goes away. It'll still be important.

TAPPER: And, Sanjay, yes, you just heard nick talk about that "New York Times" piece today about all the top health officials in New York who have resigned under Governor Cuomo.

But take a listen to this quote from Governor Cuomo from Friday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: When I say "experts" in air quotes, it sounds like I'm saying I don't really trust the experts, because I don't, because I don't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Sanjay, that seems like a wildly irresponsible thing for a leader to say during a pandemic. We need the public to believe the experts. Do you have any concerns?

GUPTA: I'm really quite, quite stunned that that's what he said. And I'm curious to talk to him and understand, clarify that a bit.

I mean, it is true that New York has had success. They had terrible numbers, I mean, in the spring of last year, but were able to bring those numbers under control. A lot of that was because of the experts and because of sort of carrying through on plans that sometimes are hard to sort of understand at the time, but with time actually make more and more sense. I'm just -- yes, I think it's irresponsible. And I think the biggest

question is, there's enough people out there who already hesitant. They don't believe the virus. They don't believe in getting a vaccine. They don't understand the value of testing.

If you start to take away some of the credence of these experts, I think that's really, really harmful, especially now.

TAPPER: All right, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thanks so much.

With just one week until former President Trump's impeachment trial, his defense team is undergoing some significant changes and his defense strategy has some Republicans nervous.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:27:54]

TAPPER: In our politics lead: former President Trump desperately trying to cobble together a legal team just a week before his second impeachment trial.

So many lawyers who had signed up quickly headed for the exits because they disagree with his defense strategy.

As CNN's chief domestic correspondent, Jim Acosta, now reports, Trump's legal hopes now appear to rest with a defense attorney who has ties to Jeffrey Epstein and the former prosecutor who once refused to bring a case against Bill Cosby.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With little more than one week before his second impeachment trial, this time for inciting the insurrection at the Capitol, former President Donald Trump is still working out the kinks on his defense team, bringing on two new attorneys David Schoen and Bruce Castor, to replace the five lawyers who bailed on him last week.

It's likely Trump has seen his new impeachment attorneys in action television.

DAVID SCHOEN, ATTORNEY FOR ROGER STONE: This commutation is a great tribute to President Trump.

ACOSTA: Schoen defended longtime Trump adviser Roger Stone, whose sentence in the Russia investigation was commuted by the former president.

In an interview published last year, Schoen said: "I represented all sorts of reputed mobster figures." Castor, a former prosecutor, made headlines for declining to charge actor Bill Cosby for sex crimes.

BRUCE CASTOR, FORMER MONTGOMERY COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA, DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Did I think she probably did something inappropriate? Yes. Did I think that I could prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, based on available, credible and admissible evidence? No, I didn't.

ACOSTA: Adding to the coming impeachment spectacle, Trump is expected to resurrect his big lie that the election was stolen from him.

SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): To me, that just says it's really important that, as a country, we come face to face with the facts and the truth.

ACOSTA: Democrats will steer their case to Trump's role in the Capitol siege, noting, even some of the writers, like the so-called QAnon Shaman, believe the former president is responsible.

ALBERT WATKINS, ATTORNEY FOR JACOB CHANSLEY: He regrets very, very much having not just been duped by the president, but by being in a position where he allowed that duping to put him in a position of making decisions that he should not have made.

ACOSTA: Another problem for Trump, his ties to GOP lawmakers who are still lying about the election, including Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, who tweeted over the weekend: "I had a great call with my all-time favorite POTUS, President Trump."

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